Re: Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra
> >*Subject:* Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra ... >AFAIK, we are still in the middle of Long Shutdown 2, >with the Large Hadron Collider /not/ sending terabytes >of experimental data through the dedicated HEP network. >The speed of sound across a symphony stage is 500,000 times >slower than bits on an optical fiber. In theory, musicians >could be connected through the HEP network, spread out over >5000 kilometer distances compared to the 10 meter distance >across a symphony stage. Distances are smaller than that >between groups of European or North American cities. On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 08:45:47AM -0600, P. Larry Nelson wrote: > Back in July, I happened upon this very interesting article: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.npr.org_2020_07_14_891091995_playing-2Dmusic-2Dtogether-2Donline-2Dis-2Dnot-2Das-2Dsimple-2Das-2Dit-2Dseems&d=DwIDAw&c=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA&r=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A&m=cnXMSULf-rJAMD-8jQQEuyEdx7TC5_ji_mldE_aVb7s&s=nsS78jBB39IXzLwKYV87GfD5wWwCHJFA5V3lLnyAJOg&e= > > > The mechanism involves JackTrip > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ccrma.stanford.edu_software_jacktrip_&d=DwIDAw&c=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA&r=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A&m=cnXMSULf-rJAMD-8jQQEuyEdx7TC5_ji_mldE_aVb7s&s=CkYrc8_f6-aqjMChhB4LFczf05BUFV4wIjW-Mvs3dtw&e= > ) > and the Jack Audio Connection Kit > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__jackaudio.org_&d=DwIDAw&c=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA&r=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A&m=cnXMSULf-rJAMD-8jQQEuyEdx7TC5_ji_mldE_aVb7s&s=aSsx5zWjpNusfc0Kc_A4rytUlZOFmvmYs4xGJu35HOs&e= > ). > > 30 milliseconds (or ~30 feet apart) is the optimal latency for musicians > to play together and hear and feed off each other in real time. > > The above packages seem to solve the distance-apart music playing problem, > up to a point and within a certain radius. > It's still constrained by the light speed limit... Thank you to many who point out that the internet is bursty, with extra delays for buffering, and that the HEP network is arrangements on top of that network, not a separate high speed connection between Europe and North America. Indeed, this kind of arrangement would not work with jazz and improv, with no two performances alike. It would not work over distances where two-sigma statistical latency exceeds 30 milliseconds. But for symphonic orchestras, working from a printed score under the same director, with practice and perhaps four /recorded/ rehersals, and some clever software ... When a latency hit exceeds 30 milliseconds for one of the performers, feed them an /estimate/ of what the other performers are doing, based on prior rehersals. That might lead to an acceptable result. If it doesn't, we learn something about the musical psychology of realtime interaction. The audience is MANY milliseconds away ... perhaps years. "Fix it in post" as they say in movie production. Clever improv/jazz artists may learn to work within these constraints as well. Decades ago, I did some engineering design for Herbie Hancock - he is a formidable engineer as well as a world class musician. Herbie designed and added a gate-array timing controller to a keyboard router I made for him. Herbie can hear a 1/128th note timing error - and can imagine hardware that compensates. Herbie was an undergraduate mechanical engineer (as well as a classical concert pianist) before jazz took over his life. Full disclosure - I have terrible hearing, siren-loud tinnitus, so music doesn't work for me. The enthusiasm of professional musicians is an acceptable substitute, as close as I can get to the experience normal music listeners enjoy. Imagine how professional scientists can adapt these tools to their own endeavors - they may invent new ways to look at the world, and convey those perspectives to others. 95% of the world is deaf to "scientific performance". Keith -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com
Re: Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra
I replied off-list on this topic, with similar thoughts as to what is stated below. There are numerous issues, particularly with non-professional software applications not designed for "broadcast" use in addition to the physics and implemented technological limitations discussed below. Any one who has watched "live" video plus audio using these non-professional applications and hardware, probably has noticed a speaking human in which the lips and voice are not in synchronous (audio and video tracks mistimed, or jitter, or both). Even with high throughput non-military/clandestine service networks (for which quality of service keeps throughput close to purchased bandwidth), the latency (and in some cases jitter) of the routers, etc., make the network unsuitable for the purpose requested. An alternative, that does not solve the speed of light issue (no Star Trek, Star Wars, etc., instantaneous transmission across the galaxy -- we do not know the physics to do that, wormholes notwithstanding), is a direct laser transmitter to a reflector in low earth orbit that allows the "beam" to be aimed to the receiver at each end of the data stream -- not feasible for standard civilian commercial use. On 12/23/20 6:41 AM, Steven C Timm wrote: In theory light could go 5000 km in 16ms. In practice it takes 105ms to get packets from FNAL to CERN. (speed of light is slower in fiber, fiber doesn't go straight, there are several switches). Even 16ms is more of a delay than you want in a musical performance. And you have to do the round trip. Try singing together with someone on zoom if you want to prove the point. The high-speed network doesn't give much benefit over the regular internet in terms of latency. it improves bandwidth but not latency all that much. The only way all these virtual choirs work is that they send out a base track to everyone that the people have locally and then each person records their part on top of it. Steve Timm (Physicist and amateur church musician, computing and recording remotely for last 10 months) *From:* owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Keith Lofstrom *Sent:* Tuesday, December 22, 2020 6:24 PM *To:* scientific-linux-users *Subject:* Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra This isn't Scientific Linux, though SL and the team that supports it would be involved in implementation. AFAIK, we are still in the middle of Long Shutdown 2, with the Large Hadron Collider /not/ sending terabytes of experimental data through the dedicated HEP network. Meanwhile, gathering musicians on stage for a symphony orchestra is a big health risk during the COVID pandemic. The speed of sound across a symphony stage is 500,000 times slower than bits on an optical fiber. In theory, musicians could be connected through the HEP network, spread out over 5000 kilometer distances compared to the 10 meter distance across a symphony stage. Distances are smaller than that between groups of European or North American cities. There are probably more symphony fans than high energy physics fans (many physicists are both), so using the HEP network for concerts during the COVID crisis could earn a LOT of political capital, and help with future funding, including funding for the next upgraded HEP network. It would also develop new techniques for synchronizing planet-scale sensor networks. There are likely some excellent astronomical and geophysical uses for that. I'd guess that readers of this list know the people who know the people who know how to do this. What could we slap together in a hurry? Keith -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com
Re: Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra
Back in July, I happened upon this very interesting article: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.npr.org_2020_07_14_891091995_playing-2Dmusic-2Dtogether-2Donline-2Dis-2Dnot-2Das-2Dsimple-2Das-2Dit-2Dseems&d=DwID-g&c=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA&r=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A&m=zpL0oT1cbXhkmhUnAgAlP_2xZXA8HGVTmSB2t3YMzm0&s=5JEaO7QOxz0BqQlR9GlqRwbwiLfa0BQ0BQbfjxtn-no&e= The mechanism involves JackTrip (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ccrma.stanford.edu_software_jacktrip_&d=DwID-g&c=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA&r=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A&m=zpL0oT1cbXhkmhUnAgAlP_2xZXA8HGVTmSB2t3YMzm0&s=B9YJRtL8KTEpENDPfHQDURVY_rTqVRE63Y9qLAZ06OI&e= ) and the Jack Audio Connection Kit (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__jackaudio.org_&d=DwID-g&c=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA&r=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A&m=zpL0oT1cbXhkmhUnAgAlP_2xZXA8HGVTmSB2t3YMzm0&s=oc-E0raMEJksSn5cDufwqbmm_YwN2niTaNohBVZQBPs&e= ). 30 milliseconds (or ~30 feet apart) is the optimal latency for musicians to play together and hear and feed off each other in real time. The above packages seem to solve the distance-apart music playing problem, up to a point and within a certain radius. It's still constrained by the light speed limit... - Larry Steven C Timm wrote on 12/23/20 8:41 AM: In theory light could go 5000 km in 16ms. In practice it takes 105ms to get packets from FNAL to CERN. (speed of light is slower in fiber, fiber doesn't go straight, there are several switches). Even 16ms is more of a delay than you want in a musical performance. And you have to do the round trip. Try singing together with someone on zoom if you want to prove the point. The high-speed network doesn't give much benefit over the regular internet in terms of latency. it improves bandwidth but not latency all that much. The only way all these virtual choirs work is that they send out a base track to everyone that the people have locally and then each person records their part on top of it. Steve Timm (Physicist and amateur church musician, computing and recording remotely for last 10 months) *From:* owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Keith Lofstrom *Sent:* Tuesday, December 22, 2020 6:24 PM *To:* scientific-linux-users *Subject:* Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra This isn't Scientific Linux, though SL and the team that supports it would be involved in implementation. AFAIK, we are still in the middle of Long Shutdown 2, with the Large Hadron Collider /not/ sending terabytes of experimental data through the dedicated HEP network. Meanwhile, gathering musicians on stage for a symphony orchestra is a big health risk during the COVID pandemic. The speed of sound across a symphony stage is 500,000 times slower than bits on an optical fiber. In theory, musicians could be connected through the HEP network, spread out over 5000 kilometer distances compared to the 10 meter distance across a symphony stage. Distances are smaller than that between groups of European or North American cities. There are probably more symphony fans than high energy physics fans (many physicists are both), so using the HEP network for concerts during the COVID crisis could earn a LOT of political capital, and help with future funding, including funding for the next upgraded HEP network. It would also develop new techniques for synchronizing planet-scale sensor networks. There are likely some excellent astronomical and geophysical uses for that. I'd guess that readers of this list know the people who know the people who know how to do this. What could we slap together in a hurry? Keith -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com -- P. Larry Nelson (217-693-7418) | IT Administrator Emeritus 810 Ventura Rd.| High Energy Physics Group Champaign, IL 61820 | Physics Dept., Univ. of Ill. MailTo: lnel...@illinois.edu | https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__hep.physics.illinois.edu_home_lnelson_&d=DwID-g&c=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA&r=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A&m=zpL0oT1cbXhkmhUnAgAlP_2xZXA8HGVTmSB2t3YMzm0&s=fj9g2_VlJrx9lMvl-kPUX35iD9Mze5o5kI2-xJhJ78c&e= --- "Information without accountability is just noise." - P.L. Nelson, 04/06/2001
Re: Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra
In theory light could go 5000 km in 16ms. In practice it takes 105ms to get packets from FNAL to CERN. (speed of light is slower in fiber, fiber doesn't go straight, there are several switches). Even 16ms is more of a delay than you want in a musical performance. And you have to do the round trip. Try singing together with someone on zoom if you want to prove the point. The high-speed network doesn't give much benefit over the regular internet in terms of latency. it improves bandwidth but not latency all that much. The only way all these virtual choirs work is that they send out a base track to everyone that the people have locally and then each person records their part on top of it. Steve Timm (Physicist and amateur church musician, computing and recording remotely for last 10 months) From: owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov on behalf of Keith Lofstrom Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 6:24 PM To: scientific-linux-users Subject: Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra This isn't Scientific Linux, though SL and the team that supports it would be involved in implementation. AFAIK, we are still in the middle of Long Shutdown 2, with the Large Hadron Collider /not/ sending terabytes of experimental data through the dedicated HEP network. Meanwhile, gathering musicians on stage for a symphony orchestra is a big health risk during the COVID pandemic. The speed of sound across a symphony stage is 500,000 times slower than bits on an optical fiber. In theory, musicians could be connected through the HEP network, spread out over 5000 kilometer distances compared to the 10 meter distance across a symphony stage. Distances are smaller than that between groups of European or North American cities. There are probably more symphony fans than high energy physics fans (many physicists are both), so using the HEP network for concerts during the COVID crisis could earn a LOT of political capital, and help with future funding, including funding for the next upgraded HEP network. It would also develop new techniques for synchronizing planet-scale sensor networks. There are likely some excellent astronomical and geophysical uses for that. I'd guess that readers of this list know the people who know the people who know how to do this. What could we slap together in a hurry? Keith -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com
Re: Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra
On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 04:24:33PM -0800, Keith Lofstrom wrote: > > There are probably more symphony fans than high energy > physics fans (many physicists are both) ... > Hmm... I am not a fan. I am a blower of flutes and whistles! -- Konstantin Olchanski Data Acquisition Systems: The Bytes Must Flow! Email: olchansk-at-triumf-dot-ca Snail mail: 4004 Wesbrook Mall, TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., V6T 2A3, Canada
Re: Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra
On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 7:30 PM Keith Lofstrom wrote: > > This isn't Scientific Linux, though SL and the team that > supports it would be involved in implementation. > > > > AFAIK, we are still in the middle of Long Shutdown 2, > with the Large Hadron Collider /not/ sending terabytes > of experimental data through the dedicated HEP network. > > Meanwhile, gathering musicians on stage for a symphony > orchestra is a big health risk during the COVID pandemic. > > The speed of sound across a symphony stage is 500,000 times > slower than bits on an optical fiber. In theory, musicians > could be connected through the HEP network, spread out over > 5000 kilometer distances compared to the 10 meter distance > across a symphony stage. Distances are smaller than that > between groups of European or North American cities. > > There are probably more symphony fans than high energy > physics fans (many physicists are both), so using the HEP > network for concerts during the COVID crisis could earn > a LOT of political capital, and help with future funding, > including funding for the next upgraded HEP network. > > It would also develop new techniques for synchronizing > planet-scale sensor networks. There are likely some > excellent astronomical and geophysical uses for that. > > I'd guess that readers of this list know the people who > know the people who know how to do this. What could we > slap together in a hurry? > > Keith The HEP network, I don't know. I used to work in high-frequency trading, but that was very asymmetric traffic, and merging it wasn't the point. Being *first* to place an order was the point. I got clear of the business just in time, when FPGA's parked on the fiber optic coming out of the stock exchanges replaced the very, very expensive low-latency multicast channels running cross-country to remote data centers. You don't *want* distributed signals for that, only your personal signal mattered. You *wanted* everyone else to get signals slightly later, and get your responses in first. The potential for phase delays to cause positive feedback loops scared the *hell* out of me when I talked to the math or stock parts of the company. I think you have a *lot* of fundamental problems to deal with. One is that even so-called "real-time kernels" and "real-time" systems often are not, they merely flatten the delay for consistency by smoothing out the interrupts common to CPU based signal processing. It looks great on an oscilloscope after this, but it's smoothing out "sharp" sounds, especially when also playing with automatic gain control and usually trying to synthesize what the designer thinks should be the information that matters, rather than presenting as much of the original data as possible to the only part of the system that matters: the human nervous system. The results are well, they look great in a PowerPoint slide but they tend to not actually provide intelligible sound. Did I ever mention I designed and built the first *stereo* cochlear implant stimulators? A very few people had two stimulators back then, but they were always distinct models of stimulator and impossible to cross-wire for stereo sound until I built a rig.
Way Off Topic - HEP Network Symphony Orchestra
This isn't Scientific Linux, though SL and the team that supports it would be involved in implementation. AFAIK, we are still in the middle of Long Shutdown 2, with the Large Hadron Collider /not/ sending terabytes of experimental data through the dedicated HEP network. Meanwhile, gathering musicians on stage for a symphony orchestra is a big health risk during the COVID pandemic. The speed of sound across a symphony stage is 500,000 times slower than bits on an optical fiber. In theory, musicians could be connected through the HEP network, spread out over 5000 kilometer distances compared to the 10 meter distance across a symphony stage. Distances are smaller than that between groups of European or North American cities. There are probably more symphony fans than high energy physics fans (many physicists are both), so using the HEP network for concerts during the COVID crisis could earn a LOT of political capital, and help with future funding, including funding for the next upgraded HEP network. It would also develop new techniques for synchronizing planet-scale sensor networks. There are likely some excellent astronomical and geophysical uses for that. I'd guess that readers of this list know the people who know the people who know how to do this. What could we slap together in a hurry? Keith -- Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com
