Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On 12.12.2014 19:32, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Dirk Bächle tshor...@gmx.de mailto:tshor...@gmx.de wrote: On 12.12.2014 18:43, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: [...] It would be a little odd to have our code at bitbucket and our wiki at github, but if github's wiki engine/editor is way better, I'd consider it. After all our wiki has been a separate thing for years already. Ahh, I can already see where you're going with this ;) You're thinking I want to move _everything_ to github I bet. Actually, no. I do like git better than mercurial, it's true; but bitbucket seems to have fine git support these days so I'm agnostic on that. I was just teasing there... :) I really just want to get the wiki back up soon, and not have to think about it anymore for a while :-). If someone proposes some other code-oriented wiki site I'd be just as happy to use that for the wiki. I really don't want to be the pessimist in this round, but I'd like to point out what's on the other side of the equation when we switch to a VCS-based editing of the Wiki: Someone has to accept (and review?) all the incoming pull requests. And you can't simply mark persons trustworthy for the future, as with the ApprovalQueue. So you have to accept/merge each time...just sayin'. Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 5:00 PM, Gary Oberbrunner ga...@oberbrunner.com wrote: (Dirk, I think that would also help the occasional contributor overhead you're concerned about.) I support Dirk, but in my opinion it is not overhead, but a showstopper. =) -- anatoly t. ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
Gary, On 13.12.2014 15:06, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: Here's a wiki progress report. * I've re-enabled the regular wiki, in read-only mode. That way at least people can see it. Pair may take it down again but it's better than nothing. * I put up test versions of the wiki, converted to markdown, on both bitbucket and github. - bitbucket: https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/FrontPage (this is backed by an hg repo) - github: https://github.com/garyo/scons-wiki/wiki/FrontPage (this is backed by a git repo) IMHO, the bitbucket version looks better. They both are functional. They both have online editors, and both allow specifying a list of approved contributors who can edit directly, without making pull requests. They are both DVCS-backed and can accept pull requests (I think, haven't tried that.) I don't know much yet about searchability or TOCs. Feel free to play with them (but don't expect your changes to persist forever, these are just tests). Please let me know what you find. this is awesome! For me, both of the options look good enough to give them a go. The bitbucket version is my winner, because it uses the full page width for content. I think this is important, e.g. for places where we quote source passages with longer lines... One other thing I noticed is, that on the SconsIsNotSlow page the attached files were successfully converted...but the images seem to be missing. Maybe there is a convert option for that? Otherwise, as I said above, it's perfectly good to start from here and manually improve pages where required. Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
Hi, Just a side remark, as a former user of that wiki: The issue is that most of it is outdated: refers to obsolete methods, uses Python methods whereas there is now a SCons method, etc... And even when it's not, readers don't trust fully what they see, because, well, how can they know if this is still up to date or not? And this is caused by the very use of a wiki to hold/update the data. Whereas if all of this could be integrated in the **official** doc, and as such, be maintained/updated to follow SCons evolution, it would bring much more value to it. Le 13 déc. 2014 à 17:37, Dirk Bächle tshor...@gmx.de a écrit : Gary, On 13.12.2014 15:06, Gary Oberbrunner wrote: Here's a wiki progress report. * I've re-enabled the regular wiki, in read-only mode. That way at least people can see it. Pair may take it down again but it's better than nothing. * I put up test versions of the wiki, converted to markdown, on both bitbucket and github. - bitbucket: https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/FrontPage (this is backed by an hg repo) - github: https://github.com/garyo/scons-wiki/wiki/FrontPage (this is backed by a git repo) IMHO, the bitbucket version looks better. They both are functional. They both have online editors, and both allow specifying a list of approved contributors who can edit directly, without making pull requests. They are both DVCS-backed and can accept pull requests (I think, haven't tried that.) I don't know much yet about searchability or TOCs. Feel free to play with them (but don't expect your changes to persist forever, these are just tests). Please let me know what you find. this is awesome! For me, both of the options look good enough to give them a go. The bitbucket version is my winner, because it uses the full page width for content. I think this is important, e.g. for places where we quote source passages with longer lines... One other thing I noticed is, that on the SconsIsNotSlow page the attached files were successfully converted...but the images seem to be missing. Maybe there is a convert option for that? Otherwise, as I said above, it's perfectly good to start from here and manually improve pages where required. Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On 13.12.2014 18:00, alexandre.feb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just a side remark, as a former user of that wiki: The issue is that most of it is outdated: refers to obsolete methods, uses Python methods whereas there is now a SCons method, etc... And even when it's not, readers don't trust fully what they see, because, well, how can they know if this is still up to date or not? And this is caused by the very use of a wiki to hold/update the data. Whereas if all of this could be integrated in the **official** doc, and as such, be maintained/updated to follow SCons evolution, it would bring much more value to it. Maintained and updated by *whom*? Do you volunteer? ;) The intention of our Wiki is not to provide official documentation, but to collect additional material (sources/docs)...that might once get integrated into the core. But it's mainly there for the community (all users), and it's in the state the community left it in. At least that's the way I see it. Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On 13.12.2014 17:53, Bill Deegan wrote: Can find search on bitbucket version, but it's there on github. Good point, that would speak for github then..since bitbucket isn't too interested in searching and hierarchies: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bitbucket-users/R0ZJrWhhMTo http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3050545/bitbucket-wiki-create-a-heirarchy-structure But even github doesn't do a full text search, it can only find page titles. :( Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
I knew this was coming while writing it :-) But no, I must confess I'm not able to spend the time it deserves on this. Le 13 déc. 2014 à 18:21, Dirk Bächle tshor...@gmx.de a écrit : On 13.12.2014 18:00, alexandre.feb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Just a side remark, as a former user of that wiki: The issue is that most of it is outdated: refers to obsolete methods, uses Python methods whereas there is now a SCons method, etc... And even when it's not, readers don't trust fully what they see, because, well, how can they know if this is still up to date or not? And this is caused by the very use of a wiki to hold/update the data. Whereas if all of this could be integrated in the **official** doc, and as such, be maintained/updated to follow SCons evolution, it would bring much more value to it. Maintained and updated by *whom*? Do you volunteer? ;) The intention of our Wiki is not to provide official documentation, but to collect additional material (sources/docs)...that might once get integrated into the core. But it's mainly there for the community (all users), and it's in the state the community left it in. At least that's the way I see it. Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Dirk Bächle tshor...@gmx.de wrote: On 13.12.2014 17:53, Bill Deegan wrote: Can find search on bitbucket version, but it's there on github. Good point, that would speak for github then..since bitbucket isn't too interested in searching and hierarchies: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bitbucket-users/R0ZJrWhhMTo http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3050545/bitbucket- wiki-create-a-heirarchy-structure But even github doesn't do a full text search, it can only find page titles. :( On the other hand, bitbucket seems OK with /-separated hierarchical pages, where github doesn't seem to. And we have many of those. Some of the pages (e.g. https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/GSoC2012/Ideas) have been cut short by the converter too. I'll keep poking at it. You can still see the moin pages at least in bitbucket; https://bytebucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/GSoC2012/Ideas.moin -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
All, I think two items for wiki are must have: 1) full text searchable from the wiki 2) index able by google and others. I'm pretty sure neither bitbucket nor github has both. (Though I suppose 1 would come with 2) As for giving specific contributors unfettered write access. I think we could just give them write access to a given repo. (which is where the wiki is). No such access control exists for a project's wiki under bitbucket. Assuming I have a host to put moin on, does anyone know how to configure it to minimize the load it causes? Can you put a caching proxy in front of it? -Bill On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Gary Oberbrunner ga...@oberbrunner.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Dirk Bächle tshor...@gmx.de wrote: On 13.12.2014 17:53, Bill Deegan wrote: Can find search on bitbucket version, but it's there on github. Good point, that would speak for github then..since bitbucket isn't too interested in searching and hierarchies: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bitbucket-users/R0ZJrWhhMTo http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3050545/bitbucket- wiki-create-a-heirarchy-structure But even github doesn't do a full text search, it can only find page titles. :( On the other hand, bitbucket seems OK with /-separated hierarchical pages, where github doesn't seem to. And we have many of those. Some of the pages (e.g. https://bitbucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/GSoC2012/Ideas) have been cut short by the converter too. I'll keep poking at it. You can still see the moin pages at least in bitbucket; https://bytebucket.org/scons/scons/wiki/GSoC2012/Ideas.moin -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On 13.12.2014 21:54, Bill Deegan wrote: All, I think two items for wiki are must have: 1) full text searchable from the wiki 2) index able by google and others. I'm pretty sure neither bitbucket nor github has both. (Though I suppose 1 would come with 2) As for giving specific contributors unfettered write access. I think we could just give them write access to a given repo. (which is where the wiki is). No such access control exists for a project's wiki under bitbucket. Assuming I have a host to put moin on, does anyone know how to configure it to minimize the load it causes? Can you put a caching proxy in front of it? I'm not an expert (I know jag about web stuff), so don't take my words for granted. But I read somewhere that one can roughly distinguish between servers that handle requests thread-based (apache), and those that work event-based (nginx). The former are more vulnerable to D(D)OS attacks, so if we setup all the stuff on our own, using nginx might be worth a try? I remember that there was a recent talk about Bitbucket and its internal architecture. If this sound interesting, I can try to dig up the link, and you can have a look at which components/configurations it uses. Why not learn from the best? Or let's say the successful at least... ;) Dirk ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
Re: [Scons-dev] What to replace the wiki with?
On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Bill Deegan b...@baddogconsulting.com wrote: All, I think two items for wiki are must have: 1) full text searchable from the wiki 2) index able by google and others. I'm pretty sure neither bitbucket nor github has both. (Though I suppose 1 would come with 2) As for giving specific contributors unfettered write access. I think we could just give them write access to a given repo. (which is where the wiki is). No such access control exists for a project's wiki under bitbucket. Assuming I have a host to put moin on, does anyone know how to configure it to minimize the load it causes? Can you put a caching proxy in front of it? I'm not certain what has caused our load spikes at pair, but I think some kind of rate-limiting of requests from a single IP would help a lot. I don't think moin's page rendering is very expensive. (Moin does some caching anyway: http://moinmo.in/MoinCaching) If you can re-host our wiki somewhere, that might be the best solution. I agree, neither of the current proposals really do it. -- Gary ___ Scons-dev mailing list Scons-dev@scons.org https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/scons-dev
