Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Steve Wyrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Official RSCDS tempo is 110-112, although I find in practice it can vary somewhat depending on the figures in the dance and the skill and stamina of the dancers! As well as the type of occasion, the condition of the floor, the temperature in the room, the time of day (or, rather, night) etc. etc. ... Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's utter rubbish. The only reason they manage to sell it at all is because they're Microsoft. No other company could sell software this bad. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], on Windows CE Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Anselm writes: | Steve Wyrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Official RSCDS tempo is 110-112, although I find in practice it can vary | somewhat depending on the figures in the dance and the skill and stamina of | the dancers! | | As well as the type of occasion, the condition of the floor, the | temperature in the room, the time of day (or, rather, night) | etc. etc. ... ... the sobriety level of the dancers, ... Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Irena Aligizakis writes: | Would a fiddler play at a different tempo for people | doing a Scottish country dance than for a stepdancer? | I'm just wondering b/c ever since I started | stepdancing I'm a lot more conscious of rhythm and | tempo and things like that in music. Yep. Step dancers usually have a lot of different tempi. But they are also usually wearing hard-soled shoes, so they are giving you the rhythm and tempo in a very audible form. You can treat them as a kind of drummer. All you have to do is listen and adjust to them. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Bob Rogers wrote: | Cynthia Cathcart wrote: | While we're talking about reels, and since there are a good smattering | of fiddlers here, I will hazard another question: how fast are they | usually played for dancers? One organization here in the States | advertises the actual tempo of reels at 130-140 per half note/minim. | ... | Well, in the preface to Skinner's _Harp and Claymore_, the editor, Gavin | Greig, M.A., wrote regarding Strathspeys and reels, | | The tempo of the former is 1/2 note = 94 and the latter 1/2 note = 126. | This represents 20 seconds for the Strathspey, and 15 for the Reel. | These are the rates given by Mr. Skinner, and coincide with those given | by G.F Graham. Mr. John Glenn makes the Strathspey somewhat slower. | | For listening? My wife was practicing some Mozart at a tempo 1/2 note = | 152, which is really fast. I was listening to a field recording of an | American Celtic fiddler (on headphones in the next room), and his | tempo exactly matched her metronome. It sounded very fast, but not | really hurried or rushed. In general, the proper speed is very different for different kinds of dancing, and there's usually at least a 10% variation on either side of the average speed. For some years, my wife and I have been playing for a rapper sword team. They dance mostly to jigs. I've taken an electronic metronome along to a number of morris/sword events, and the typical rapper team dances at about 160. Their footwork gets really clunky and tiring if the tempo is less than about 150. Now, many musicians' reaction to this is 160? Awk!!! But actually, a jig at 160 and a reel at 120 are the same speed, 8 notes per second. 120 is about the average speed for New England contras (which we also play a lot). So anyone who plays reels for contras can play a jig at 160. I also play for a lot of Scottish (RSCDS) dances, and there the usual speed for reels and jigs is around 112. With the usual 10% variance, of course, depending on the dance and the tunes. It can be funny to watch contra musicians trying to hold down the tempo to 112. But the dancers will usually give you a lot of too fast feedback when the tempo creeps up. One thing that I like to point out to newcomers to this and other kinds of dance is that there's an interesting pattern to the speed: When playing for novices, you will need to play a bit slowly at first, and speed up as they learn the dances. But when playing for a crowd of experienced dancers, they will want you to slow down. This is, contrary to common opinion, not an age-related thing. The better dancers have learned fancy things that they like to do with the steps, and they can't do them at a fast tempo. For an intermediate crowd, a fast tempo works, because they mostly don't know the fancy things, and they also don't have the balance that slower dancing requires. But the more advanced dancers have the steps and the balance, and they'll like the music slower so they can do things with the dance. A while ago I noticed that over the weekend I'd played Stan Chapman's jig at 112 for a Scottish dance, at 120 for a contra, and at 160 for a rapper dance. The style you need for all of these is rather different, of course, but the tune works for all of them. I've also played for a lot of Irish step dancers in the past, and they have at least 6 distinct jigs, each with a different rhythm and tempo. Then there's Morris dancing, with its deliberate tempos of around 80 or 90. One of my favorite ways of educating musicians who are impressed by fast and loud is to get them to try playing along with Morris dancers. This is a crowd that is *not* impressed by fast and loud. Too fast is simply wrong. And you need to play loud enough to be heard, but not so loud that you drown the calls. And you have to learn a lot of style. And, of course, you need to learn the proper irreverent, nonchalant attitude towards it all. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
At 05:57 PM 1/9/03 +, you wrote: Isn't that why lists like this exist? Aye, well...sorry. I'm mentally transferring problems I had with another list onto this one. Thankfully, we're pretty focused on helping each other here! Thanks for the great answer on reels, John. Not at all what I expected. While we're talking about reels, and since there are a good smattering of fiddlers here, I will hazard another question: how fast are they usually played for dancers? One organization here in the States advertises the actual tempo of reels at 130-140 per half note/minim. Ignoring the fact that these settings are not on the standard metronome, is that lightening fast or what? Can our fiddlers really play reels that fast? Can people dance that fast?? How much variation in tempo would you think is acceptable for a reel played for listening? How slow can one take it before people start throwing things at you? Before Fiddlers start throwing things? --Cynthia Cathcart http://www.cynthiacathcart.net/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
At 05:57 PM 1/9/03 +, you wrote: Isn't that why lists like this exist? Aye, well...sorry. I'm mentally transferring problems I had with another list onto this one. Thankfully, we're pretty focused on helping each other here! Yes, we're really special on this list. Most people actually get along and can agree to disagree. :-) Mostly because it's the same 25 people or so who have been doing most of the posting for years now (although the subscriber base for this list is actually quite large now, and keeps slowly growing). There are in general few catfights on this list, and more information exchange. We generally leave those catfights to some of the other traditional music lists :-) Heh.. Heh.. How much variation in tempo would you think is acceptable for a reel played for listening? How slow can one take it before people start throwing things at you? Before Fiddlers start throwing things? I've found that you can get away with alot more playing tunes for an audience. It allows you to be alot more creative. I like that. Creative is good, robotic is bad.. Playing for dancers is cool in some ways (gives you alot of practice playing the same tunes, over and over and over) but it can also be a tramautic experience. It seems there's always some fat, bloated, listerbag, non-musician, in a kilt (you know the type, they look like tartan sofas) that wants to come up after every set and micromanage the music. Faster.. Slower.. The first part faster.. The second part slower.. Blah.. Blah.. Blah.. That's just part of the reason that I got so pissed off that I stopped playing the fiddle for an entire year. Now I'm back and I've adopted a much healthier attitude. I basically don't give a damned. I'm not playing music for a living, I have a good day job. I'm playing music because I love it, but heck music isn't even my only passion. Therefore I'm going to play whatever I want, however I want, and the only opinions that matter to me are those of people who actually know about the music and have a clue. If Charlie Gore or Nigel Gatherer says something, I listen carefully. If some bloated walking tartan sofa says something, I smile politely all the while thinking What a freakin' tosser! I wonder how loud the thud would be if the floor opened up and he fell through to the bottom? Okay, with that said, back to the question :-) Alot of people take creative license with tempo on tunes. For some reason the first one that comes to mind is that tune I think it's called the Waulkin' of the Fould. I heard someone (maybe it was Johnny Cunningham) play it as a slow air. I've also heard it play very even and strathspey-ish by some old dude from Cape Breton (which one? I can't remember, maybe Fr. Morris?) Either way it's a pretty sweet tune. -- Toby Rider ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) He either fears his fate too much, Or his deserts are small, That puts it not unto the touch To win or lose it all. - James Graham, Marquis of Montrose Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Would a fiddler play at a different tempo for people doing a Scottish country dance than for a stepdancer? I'm just wondering b/c ever since I started stepdancing I'm a lot more conscious of rhythm and tempo and things like that in music. --- Toby Rider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 05:57 PM 1/9/03 +, you wrote: Isn't that why lists like this exist? Aye, well...sorry. I'm mentally transferring problems I had with another list onto this one. Thankfully, we're pretty focused on helping each other here! Yes, we're really special on this list. Most people actually get along and can agree to disagree. :-) Mostly because it's the same 25 people or so who have been doing most of the posting for years now (although the subscriber base for this list is actually quite large now, and keeps slowly growing). There are in general few catfights on this list, and more information exchange. We generally leave those catfights to some of the other traditional music lists :-) Heh.. Heh.. How much variation in tempo would you think is acceptable for a reel played for listening? How slow can one take it before people start throwing things at you? Before Fiddlers start throwing things? I've found that you can get away with alot more playing tunes for an audience. It allows you to be alot more creative. I like that. Creative is good, robotic is bad.. Playing for dancers is cool in some ways (gives you alot of practice playing the same tunes, over and over and over) but it can also be a tramautic experience. It seems there's always some fat, bloated, listerbag, non-musician, in a kilt (you know the type, they look like tartan sofas) that wants to come up after every set and micromanage the music. Faster.. Slower.. The first part faster.. The second part slower.. Blah.. Blah.. Blah.. That's just part of the reason that I got so pissed off that I stopped playing the fiddle for an entire year. Now I'm back and I've adopted a much healthier attitude. I basically don't give a damned. I'm not playing music for a living, I have a good day job. I'm playing music because I love it, but heck music isn't even my only passion. Therefore I'm going to play whatever I want, however I want, and the only opinions that matter to me are those of people who actually know about the music and have a clue. If Charlie Gore or Nigel Gatherer says something, I listen carefully. If some bloated walking tartan sofa says something, I smile politely all the while thinking What a freakin' tosser! I wonder how loud the thud would be if the floor opened up and he fell through to the bottom? Okay, with that said, back to the question :-) Alot of people take creative license with tempo on tunes. For some reason the first one that comes to mind is that tune I think it's called the Waulkin' of the Fould. I heard someone (maybe it was Johnny Cunningham) play it as a slow air. I've also heard it play very even and strathspey-ish by some old dude from Cape Breton (which one? I can't remember, maybe Fr. Morris?) Either way it's a pretty sweet tune. -- Toby Rider ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) He either fears his fate too much, Or his deserts are small, That puts it not unto the touch To win or lose it all. - James Graham, Marquis of Montrose Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html = __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Would a fiddler play at a different tempo for people doing a Scottish country dance than for a stepdancer? I'm just wondering b/c ever since I started stepdancing I'm a lot more conscious of rhythm and tempo and things like that in music. Yes. The reels for step-dancing are a bit fast then for SCD. The biggest difference is in the strathspeys. For SCD they are *totally* different then for step-dancing, where to beat gets emphasized is different. The tempo is different, etc.. -- Toby Rider ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) He either fears his fate too much, Or his deserts are small, That puts it not unto the touch To win or lose it all. - James Graham, Marquis of Montrose Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Cynthia Cathcart wrote: While we're talking about reels, and since there are a good smattering of fiddlers here, I will hazard another question: how fast are they usually played for dancers? One organization here in the States advertises the actual tempo of reels at 130-140 per half note/minim. Ignoring the fact that these settings are not on the standard metronome, is that lightening fast or what? Can our fiddlers really play reels that fast? Can people dance that fast?? How much variation in tempo would you think is acceptable for a reel played for listening? How slow can one take it before people start throwing things at you? Before Fiddlers start throwing things? --Cynthia Cathcart Well, in the preface to Skinner's _Harp and Claymore_, the editor, Gavin Greig, M.A., wrote regarding Strathspeys and reels, The tempo of the former is 1/2 note = 94 and the latter 1/2 note = 126. This represents 20 seconds for the Strathspey, and 15 for the Reel. These are the rates given by Mr. Skinner, and coincide with those given by G.F Graham. Mr. John Glenn makes the Strathspey somewhat slower. For listening? My wife was practicing some Mozart at a tempo 1/2 note = 152, which is really fast. I was listening to a field recording of an American Celtic fiddler (on headphones in the next room), and his tempo exactly matched her metronome. It sounded very fast, but not really hurried or rushed. Bob Rogers South Carolina Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Cynthia Cathcart wrote: While we're talking about reels, and since there are a good smattering of fiddlers here, I will hazard another question: how fast are they usually played for dancers? One organization here in the States advertises the actual tempo of reels at 130-140 per half note/minim. Ignoring the fact that these settings are not on the standard metronome, is that lightening fast or what? Can our fiddlers really play reels that fast? Can people dance that fast?? Official RSCDS tempo is 110-112, although I find in practice it can vary somewhat depending on the figures in the dance and the skill and stamina of the dancers! -Steve -- Steve Wyrick -- Concord, California Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
It's a wonderful book! One of my "top of the pile" collections. (As in, I have a huge pile of music here and Charlie's book is always near the top.) I bought it a couple of years ago at a Highland Festival in the States. Besides recognizing Charlie's name, I was attracted to it because of the fact that it's all Jigs! One of the harp societies I'm active in has been really pushing Reels and Strathspeys as "the" dance music of Scotland, and I suspected there was more. I'm so glad that Charlie published this collection, because it confirmed my suspicions! Now, here is a question that I am a bit hesitant to ask, because it reveals a certain ignorance on my part, but, here goes. Please be kind to me if you decide to answer! Some of the tunes in Charlie's book are in 6/8 time, but are labeled as reels. Now, I was taught that all reels are in 4/4 time, no exceptions. (Of course, I was also taught by the same source that they are all fast, which I question. I mean, really, mm130 to a half note?) So. Are these mis-named reels in Charlie's book which are really jigs? Or do I need to change my understanding of what a reel is? I begin to wonder if I just haven't been paying enough attention all these years. My compensating plea is I'm not a fiddler. Harpers and clarsairs are pretty new to dance music. --Cynthia Cathcart http://www.cynthiacathcart.net/
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Does this book have an ISBN number? Thanks. CliffA --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a wonderful book!... --Cynthia Cathcart http://www.cynthiacathcart.net/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
In a message dated 1/9/03 11:14:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does this book have an ISBN number? Thanks. ISBN 0 946868 21 2 The Hardie Press (1997) 17 Harrison Gardens Edinburgh EH11 1SE --Cynthia Cathcart http://www.cynthiacathcart.net/
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Thanks very much CA --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/9/03 11:14:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does this book have an ISBN number? Thanks. ISBN 0 946868 21 2 The Hardie Press (1997) 17 Harrison Gardens Edinburgh EH11 1SE --Cynthia Cathcart http://www.cynthiacathcart.net/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
It's a wonderful book! One of my top of the pile collections. (As in, I have a huge pile of music here and Charlie's book is always near the top.) I bought it a couple of years ago at a Highland Festival in the States. Besides recognizing Charlie's name, I was attracted to it because of the fact that it's all Jigs! One of the harp societies I'm active in has been really pushing Reels and Strathspeys as the dance music of Scotland, and I suspected there was more. I'm so glad that Charlie published this collection, because it confirmed my suspicions! Well all those Cape Bretoners like to dance square sets to jigs. So the musicians all play tons of jigs up there. However someone mentioned that the square sets are not an import from the Scottish Highlands, like the step dancing is. Rather the square sets were imported from either the States, England or other parts of Canada, and jigs fit the right meter for the dance. Supposedly they evolved from the Lancer's dance sets? We need help on the details from Kate Dunlay, our resident expert dancer. Kate, what is the story behind them? I know you told me one time a couple years ago when we visited you guys in Toronto, but I was either really tired or slightly blotto at the time (or both), so I don't remember. :-) At any rate, I like to find jigs that are interesting and unique, because quite honestly so many jigs are boring or trite. Alot of the most interesting jigs I've heard and borrowed have come from Irish players. I'm pretty happy to have discovered Charlie's jig book here because I'm sure it will have some good ones. -- Toby Rider ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) He either fears his fate too much, Or his deserts are small, That puts it not unto the touch To win or lose it all. - James Graham, Marquis of Montrose Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
Not forgetting the Foula Reel - traditional tune for which is Da Shaalds of Foula which is in 6/8. Reel in some dance terminologies means a hey - or a figure of 8 thingummyjig (sic) ... in other contexts it means a dance where one measure is used for moving (sometimes, but not always, in a hey) and the other measure is stepped on the spot. --On Thursday, January 09, 2003 17:57:41 + John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip This is an ongoing point of confusion. In at least some cases, the term reel gets applied to things in other rhythms because it's also a dance term. It's a name of a kind of dance figure. Dances are often strongly associated with specific tunes, and a dance's name easily gets transferred to its tune. nip Iain (Jethro) Anderson - DBA (ISYS) University of Bristol Pigsty Morris City Clickers Step and Clog Instep Research Team Insword Rapper Never give a sword to a man who can't dance Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] A Fiddler's Book of Scottish Jigs
I was digging through Ashley MacIssac's website and found a link to this book that was compiled by Charles Gore. How long has this book been out for? How come Charlie (who is on this list) never mentioned it when it first came out? Sounds like some good an unusual stuff in there. -- Toby Rider ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) He either fears his fate too much, Or his deserts are small, That puts it not unto the touch To win or lose it all. - James Graham, Marquis of Montrose Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
