Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Derek Hoy wrote: Bob said: When I was in high school, we lived at Fort Riley, Kansas, an infantry post. They played bugle calls several (15?) times a day. Of course they played retreat to take down the flag, which was preceeded by firing the howitzer. Every night. That was about 3 blocks from our quarters. They fire the howitzer when they raise the flag too (6AM?). Ritual. What more can you ask for? Sleep? Mountains? :-) Toby Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
This is from a note to a CD by the Household Division (they do the Changing of the Guard stuff I think): - The beating or sounding of Retreat has its origins in the sixteenth century When I was in high school, we lived at Fort Riley, Kansas, an infantry post. They played bugle calls several (15?) times a day. Of course they played retreat to take down the flag, which was preceeded by firing the howitzer. Every night. That was about 3 blocks from our quarters. They fire the howitzer when they raise the flag too (6AM?). Ritual. What more can you ask for? I think I'll put on my kilt now, and march around the house beating pots... Bob South Carolina Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Stuart wrote: The retreat march is not, as Stan suggests, necessarily a march time tune which would be marched to - as often as not it was played as part of the evening ritual in the military camp as day duties gave way to night ones. It was not linked to the military manoeuvre of retreating in or from battle but was linked to the idea of refuge and safety in the camp. Some contemporary players, assuming that the retreat march is to be marched to, crank it up to ... This is from a note to a CD by the Household Division (they do the Changing of the Guard stuff I think): - The beating or sounding of Retreat has its origins in the sixteenth century when it was possibly the same ceremony as Tattoo, 'ye retrete to beat att 9 att night and take it from ye garde'. A book of 1598 says 'ye Drumme Major will advertise (by beate of Drum) those require for watch'. In the seventeenth century the Drummers are 'to beate the Retreat through the large street and to be answered by all the dummerrs of ye Gardes'. Nowadays the ceremony, usually at sunset, denotes the end of the working day and heralds the mounting of the Guard. - There you are then. My most memorable retreat was at Gleneagles during the 1977 Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers, when I watched the retreat being beaten with Pierre Trudeau. Derek Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Jack Campin wrote: I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about rattlers--which are sometimes noted as retreats? Morgan's Rattler also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong. Morgan Rattler is from the 1780s, well before the retreat march was invented. I had no idea it was a genre: there is a fragmentary verse from C.K. Sharpe's manuscripts with the punchline I lathered her up with my Morgan Rattler, which kinda suggests he didn't have 3-wheelers in mind either. Where do you find these rattler tunes? === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html See Morgan Rattler and variant Jackson's Bouner Burger in the Irish tune index on my website for many copies of each. Thomas Hudson's song Morgan Rattler was written more than 40 years after the tune appeared. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about rattlers--which are sometimes noted as retreats? Morgan's Rattler also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong. Morgan Rattler is from the 1780s, well before the retreat march was invented. I had no idea it was a genre: there is a fragmentary verse from C.K. Sharpe's manuscripts with the punchline I lathered her up with my Morgan Rattler, which kinda suggests he didn't have 3-wheelers in mind either. Where do you find these rattler tunes? === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
I find your observations interesting, especially in that a march usually listed as a retreat like Battle of the Somme seems to want-- at least for me-- to move along a bit. I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about rattlers--which are sometimes noted as retreats? Morgan's Rattler also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong. CliffA The retreat march is not, as Stan suggests, necessarily a march time tune which would be marched to - as often as not it was played as part of the evening ritual in the military camp as day duties gave way to night ones. It was not linked to the military manoeuvre of retreating in or from battle but was linked to the idea of refuge and safety in the camp. Some contemporary players, assuming that the retreat march is to be marched to, crank it up to a kind of swaggering, kilt swinging, tempo which robs the airs of the inherent melancholy quality which many possess. I hope this helps illustrate my earlier point. Stuart Eydmann __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Re Stuart Eydmann's recent e-mail on the subject: I am very interested in the work you refer to which was done by Dr. Peter Cooke... to explain the internal rhythmic variation in traditional players which gives the music its particular lift, lit and drive. Is it available? Re the issue of traditional characteristics or the Scottish Idiom as Hunter describes it ; the following may be of interest to you and others. The quote from Hunter in your e-mail Snap bowing is one of the most fundamental strokes in strathspey playing, continues and mastery of it is essential if the player is to capture the rhythmic drive inherent in the music. In my experience not a single Cape Breton fiddler plays or ever did play strathspeys this way. In fact I believe that it is virtually impossible to play strathspeys this way at step dance tempo, [176 to 184] but you'd be in for a royal fight if you concluded that CB fiddlers don't play them with rhythmic drive. It is also interesting to note that Hunter's description of the Scots snap on the same page and the up-driven bow on the following page describe precisely how CB fiddlers execute this bowing. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Re Stuart Eydmann's recent e-mail on the subject: I am very interested in the work you refer to which was done by Dr. Peter Cooke... to explain the internal rhythmic variation in traditional players which gives the music its particular lift, lit and drive. Is it available? Alexander, we have the Peter Cooke book here and you could borrow it. Stuart Eydmann wrote: The grace note has echoes of the birl discussion of some months ago. Non traditional players are often thrown by the presence of grace notes on the written page and I think that is what is being referred to here. In most circumstances in fast music a fiddle grace note is fitted in without any real or apparent robbing of time from the melody note which follows - if it is overdone then it just does not sound right. I think it was CPE Bach who wrote on the true way to perform gracenotes (presumably in keyboard music) which classical musicians often drag up to defend their case. Classical musicians see the grace note and immediately strive to give it an emphasis and value which it does not deserve or require. I have to disagree here because in Cape Breton fiddling there is much use of emphasized grace notes with real note value. Or, I should say that one hears this type of grace note often anyway. David and I notate them as grace notes with no slashes when we transcribe from someone's playing. I'm not sure how many Cape Breton fiddlers actually *read* grace notes this way though -- this would have to be investigated. I suspect that when reading music, Cape Breton fiddlers usually ignore most of the extra stuff and substitute their own expressions. However, I bet that if a written grace note fits the Cape Breton style and is placed in the type of situation in which these long grace notes are used, then a Cape Breton fiddler might well interprete it that way. Some Cape Breton fiddlers play even the quick type of double grace notes more slowly than others, almost in a triplet rhythm. - Kate D. -- Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
All this stuff about Tempi is sort of interesting. What is right, is not for me as interesting as WHY certain tempi work. Human Physiology dosn't vary that much (Dinner plates are the same size all over the world). Understanding tempi is also about understanding its function. Marches should be played at marching speed. Watch people going across the Millenium bridge. They are all going at more or less the same speed. As you play pretend you are marching home after you have escaped a bloody, painful death in a battle you were forced to go to avoid your house being burned. If you are only a few miles from your loved ones, and you see the hills of home you'll start to swing into a retreat march, and my won't the tune go, and be just right You are playing at a dance and are not sure of the tempo. Dance it through in your head and pick up the pulse. This of course depends on some familliarity with the dance and and being a no bad dancer. So if you want to be a dance musician, first learn to dance. Why are reels good at between 108\116 BPM? Moderate areobic exercise, which allows a moderately fat, moderately middle aged man, to chat up a moderately beautiful partner, while getting all the appropriate endorphins to kick in to keep you going all night, produces a heart rate of 108/116BPM. So in theory a good band is so sensitve to the audience and the audience is so sensitive to the band that a commomn pulse builds in the hall, and we all get HIGH. Please consult a whirling dervish to confirm AY STAN -- Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
