Re: [SMW-devel] Patch to make SMW output ISO8601 dates
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 2009-03-05 20:15, Markus Krötzsch wrote: >> There is one thing I'm not 100% sure about though: Your implementation >> always prints out a complete date, like '2009-03-05' by printing out a >> default of '01' for the MM and DD parts when they are undefined. >> >> The Wikipedia article describing ISO8601, section "General principles" [2] >> says: "For reduced accuracy, any number of values may be dropped from any >> of the date and time representations, but in the order from the least to >> the most significant." >> >> So it would be possible to just omit the '-DD' or '-MM-DD' part when they >> are undefined. I would prefer this over SMW implying that the date is "on >> January the 1st" even though the precise point in time may actually be >> unknown. What do you think? > > I also read that article :-) I decided against using partial dates because I > assumed that it would complicate the life of people who use parser functions > to post-process the dates (I think this is the main application of using ISO > right now). Also, the old behaviour was to complete the date, so it recovers > the kind of downwards compatibility that was asked for. Hm... but do you really think it's the right thing™ to let SMW invent a part of the date even though that missing part may have been omitted deliberately? As it is now, whenever you see "-01-01" you have to wonder: is it really January 1st or did SMW make that up? I just don't feel very comfortable with that. > One could introduce more strings than "ISO" to have more fine-grained > formatting options. But this gets us into the hell of date formatting (there > are far too many options there) and of localization (man common formatting > directives for dates are heavily biased towards English). To be honest, I think we NEED to get into the "hell of date formatting". SMW is nice and all, enabling us to store and query - but what does it help when we can't get the stuff in exactly the way we need it out again? Maybe we could extend the SRF extension and add all the date formatters there? Another approach would be to let the *user* specify the output template (like it was in some older SMW version, where strftime date formatting strings were accepted, or based on MediaWiki's template "language" with a few well-documented magic words that return the date parts, like "__SMWYEAR4D__"...). I know there were problems because of a limited date range with strftime, but for some (maybe many) users those problems are actually more acceptable than just not having any options when it comes to formatting dates. I think this is really important - finding out that you can't get your queries to return exactly what you want is a huge show-stopper for people trying to *really* make use of SMW (more than just some proof of concept). Patrick. - -- Key ID: 0x86E346D4http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmwyEgACgkQyYHmhobjRtR4GACfdPYlcxCLTVDQlMGz1xlg5G6y MO0An0AcCy3qKj1yVBRRZmXNbjK2jmnO =3srF -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San Francisco, CA -OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise -Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation -Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H ___ Semediawiki-devel mailing list Semediawiki-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
Re: [SMW-devel] Patch to make SMW output ISO8601 dates
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Markus, On 2009-03-05 20:10, Markus Krötzsch wrote: > * I can imagine a global "date format" switch that may be set to ISO to make > it a default for all dates. But I do not know which printout modifier to use > for "normal" dates then (note that "ISO" is rather language neutral). I am > thus inclined to opt against this extension. What about my proposal "localized"? Or maybe just "standard" or "normal"? Patrick. - -- Key ID: 0x86E346D4http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmvwjUACgkQyYHmhobjRtSkuwCfQtMPUex/n0W6XQMsmT0YZ/JL qUUAoJF5J5KjCC1qExIyRtUvsFlQLJFH =4tau -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San Francisco, CA -OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise -Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation -Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H ___ Semediawiki-devel mailing list Semediawiki-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
Re: [SMW-devel] Patch to make SMW output ISO8601 dates
On Donnerstag, 5. März 2009, Patrick Nagel wrote:
> Hi Markus,
>
> On 2009-03-05 03:09, Markus Krötzsch wrote:
> >> Could something like this be included in SMW?
> >
> > Yes. I suggest a slightly different control interface, though. The output
> > is only a problem for #ask queries, right? My suggestion is to use the
> > existing "printout modifier" mechanism that works for #ask printouts, so
> > that one can choose for each single printout which format to use.
> > Example:
> >
> > {{#ask: ...
> >
> > | ?start date
> > | ?end date#ISO
> >
> > }}
>
> That's probably better for most. I have to go through all #ask queries
> then, and append '#ISO' everywhere, but that's ok :)
>
> > This will show a three column table with start date in localized format
> > and end date in ISO 8601 format. The ISO date is always completed
> > (assuming January and 01 as defaults for month and day as in sorting).
> > The time component may be omitted. If given, the time is separated by "T"
> > as defined in the spec. Years are padded up to four digits, so you get
> > things like "0010-05-06". Negative years, as suggested by ISO, represent
> > BC dates, with 0 corresponding to 1 BC, -1 corresponding to 2 BC, and so
> > on.
>
> Good catch, without the 'T' as separator between date and time it's not
> really ISO8601. Or at least something like "-MM-DD hh:mm:ss" (like in
> my patch) - according to [1] - "is considered two separate, but acceptable,
> representations - one for date and the other for time. It is then left to
> the reader to interpret the two separate representations as meaning a
> single time point based on the context".
>
> > All implemented in SVN.
>
> That was fast, thanks! :)
>
> There is one thing I'm not 100% sure about though: Your implementation
> always prints out a complete date, like '2009-03-05' by printing out a
> default of '01' for the MM and DD parts when they are undefined.
>
> The Wikipedia article describing ISO8601, section "General principles" [2]
> says: "For reduced accuracy, any number of values may be dropped from any
> of the date and time representations, but in the order from the least to
> the most significant."
>
> So it would be possible to just omit the '-DD' or '-MM-DD' part when they
> are undefined. I would prefer this over SMW implying that the date is "on
> January the 1st" even though the precise point in time may actually be
> unknown. What do you think?
I also read that article :-) I decided against using partial dates because I
assumed that it would complicate the life of people who use parser functions
to post-process the dates (I think this is the main application of using ISO
right now). Also, the old behaviour was to complete the date, so it recovers
the kind of downwards compatibility that was asked for.
One could introduce more strings than "ISO" to have more fine-grained
formatting options. But this gets us into the hell of date formatting (there
are far too many options there) and of localization (man common formatting
directives for dates are heavily biased towards English).
Markus
>
> Patrick.
>
> [1]:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO8601#Combined_date_and_time_representations
> [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO8601#General_principles
--
Markus Krötzsch
Semantic MediaWikihttp://semantic-mediawiki.org
http://korrekt.orgmar...@semantic-mediawiki.org
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Re: [SMW-devel] Patch to make SMW output ISO8601 dates
My aggregated comments: * ISO dates are not generally accepted as inputs. this is so because the default ISO order of date parts is not the same as the preferred default order in most languages (even in English). One could attempt a work-around based on the fact that all ISO years must be 4 digits long. I think there is even a bug for this already. * I can imagine a global "date format" switch that may be set to ISO to make it a default for all dates. But I do not know which printout modifier to use for "normal" dates then (note that "ISO" is rather language neutral). I am thus inclined to opt against this extension. -- Markus On Donnerstag, 5. März 2009, CNIT wrote: > Patrick Nagel пишет: > > I'll try to come up with a patch that makes SMW understand more ISO8601 > > dates. I will only implement the (recommended) "extended format" (with > > hyphens / colons), not the "basic format" (without hyphens / colons). I > > don't know about week dates and ordinal dates yet, maybe in a second > > step. > > Ordinal dates as input are very nice thing, they allow easily to build > anniversaries > (memorable events that happened on the same day in previous years). > I was hoping to implement something like this myself, but not having enough > free time (and my coding probably is not reliable enough). > Dmitriy > > --- >--- Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San > Francisco, CA -OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing > the Enterprise -Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open > source participation -Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with > the source code: SFAD http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H > ___ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Semediawiki-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel -- Markus Krötzsch Semantic MediaWikihttp://semantic-mediawiki.org http://korrekt.orgmar...@semantic-mediawiki.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San Francisco, CA -OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise -Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation -Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H___ Semediawiki-devel mailing list Semediawiki-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
Re: [SMW-devel] Patch to make SMW output ISO8601 dates
Patrick Nagel пишет: > I'll try to come up with a patch that makes SMW understand more ISO8601 > dates. > I will only implement the (recommended) "extended format" (with hyphens / > colons), not the "basic format" (without hyphens / colons). I don't know > about > week dates and ordinal dates yet, maybe in a second step. > > Ordinal dates as input are very nice thing, they allow easily to build anniversaries (memorable events that happened on the same day in previous years). I was hoping to implement something like this myself, but not having enough free time (and my coding probably is not reliable enough). Dmitriy -- Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San Francisco, CA -OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise -Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation -Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H ___ Semediawiki-devel mailing list Semediawiki-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
Re: [SMW-devel] Patch to make SMW output ISO8601 dates
Hi Dmitriy, On 2009-03-05 16:51, CNIT wrote: >> I think it would be best to also have a possibility to set the >> SMW-wide default to ISO8601, like in my proposal. Adding a possible >> printout modifier value "localized" (which would override the SMW-wide >> default setting) would then give all possibilities. [...] > Only optionally. My users need localized dates. Yes, it should be optional (as in a global variable that can be set in LocalSettings.php), imo. The default should stay at 'localized', for backwards compatibility. > I wonder whether the input of ISO8601 is accepted > (because the ISO8601 output may be given as input to another #ask > template).. > ISO should be interesting for templating (both input and output). > Dmitriy There are a number of problems I discovered during a quick check: Time zone designators are interpreted in the wrong way (try '2009-03-05T12:12:34+02:00', which should be output as '2009-03-05T10:12:34' on a Wiki that's running with UTC time and as '2009-03-05T18:12:34' on a Wiki that's running with China Standard Time timezone set). Or they cause the string to not be understood (try '2009-03-05T12:12:34+0200'). I'll try to come up with a patch that makes SMW understand more ISO8601 dates. I will only implement the (recommended) "extended format" (with hyphens / colons), not the "basic format" (without hyphens / colons). I don't know about week dates and ordinal dates yet, maybe in a second step. Patrick. -- Key ID: 0x86E346D4http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4 -- Open Source Business Conference (OSBC), March 24-25, 2009, San Francisco, CA -OSBC tackles the biggest issue in open source: Open Sourcing the Enterprise -Strategies to boost innovation and cut costs with open source participation -Receive a $600 discount off the registration fee with the source code: SFAD http://p.sf.net/sfu/XcvMzF8H ___ Semediawiki-devel mailing list Semediawiki-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
Re: [SMW-devel] Patch to make SMW output ISO8601 dates
> Hi,
>
> it's me again... I thought some more about
>
> On 2009-03-05 03:09, Markus Krötzsch wrote:
>
>> I suggest a slightly different control interface, though. The output is
>> only a problem for #ask queries, right?My suggestion is to use the existing
>> "printout modifier" mechanism that works for #ask printouts, so that one can
>> choose for each single printout which format to use. Example:
>>
>> {{#ask: ...
>> | ?start date
>> | ?end date#ISO
>> }}
>>
>
> I think it would be best to also have a possibility to set the SMW-wide
> default
> to ISO8601, like in my proposal. Adding a possible printout modifier value
> "localized" (which would override the SMW-wide default setting) would then
> give
> all possibilities.
>
> My reason behind this: I think users who are accustomed to the ISO8601 date
> format will find it peculiar to see the localised dates, which are still the
> unchangeable default in your implementation, and they show up in the Browse
> Properties output, for example.
>
> Patrick.
>
>
Only optionally. My users need localized dates.
I wonder whether the input of ISO8601 is accepted
(because the ISO8601 output may be given as input to another #ask
template)..
ISO should be interesting for templating (both input and output).
Dmitriy
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Re: [SMW-devel] Patch to make SMW output ISO8601 dates
Hi,
it's me again... I thought some more about
On 2009-03-05 03:09, Markus Krötzsch wrote:
> I suggest a slightly different control interface, though. The output is
> only a problem for #ask queries, right?My suggestion is to use the existing
> "printout modifier" mechanism that works for #ask printouts, so that one can
> choose for each single printout which format to use. Example:
>
> {{#ask: ...
> | ?start date
> | ?end date#ISO
> }}
I think it would be best to also have a possibility to set the SMW-wide default
to ISO8601, like in my proposal. Adding a possible printout modifier value
"localized" (which would override the SMW-wide default setting) would then give
all possibilities.
My reason behind this: I think users who are accustomed to the ISO8601 date
format will find it peculiar to see the localised dates, which are still the
unchangeable default in your implementation, and they show up in the Browse
Properties output, for example.
Patrick.
--
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