Re: [silk] Lost and Found
On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Madhu Kurup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heh: Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: So you finally landed on silk? Thought just your mom was here, and she's become a regular in such a short time :) Welcome. Not for a want of trying, I can assure you. From 2004, to now, just a short four years of public threatening.. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silk-list/message/10847 Cheerio, M This is obviously someone who wants their mummy to test out the silky waters first, start swimming in them, and then wet the little toesies! *evil grin*. (Though I must say she has jumped straight into mid-stream, no dainty dipping of feet for her.) Welcome, SIG! I do think you will enjoy the feel of silkthis is a silk that can sometimes get under your skin, too! Udhay...when did you add me on to the list? I do think the name silk is so apt for this list. Like gossamer, the thoughts float out, and yet they have their tensile strengthloose threads drift where they will, as the breeze of association moves them...and yet the network has held strong for so many years now. oh, my, where did all that lyricism come from? Let me bring myself back to reality and talk about the evil U spider that lives in the centre of this...who collects interesting insects! Deepa.
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
(Though I must say she has jumped straight into mid-stream, no dainty dipping of feet for her.) You forget, only those following this thread know that I'm here... SIG
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
At 2008-02-27 22:58:39 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The officer gruffly said that I should do whatever. For a moment there, I almost thought there might be some advantage to being a large male human when it comes to driving inspectors, but then I realised that a fine upstanding public official is hardly likely to have been biased thus. -- ams
[silk] Lost and Found
I was pretty impressed with this evidence of public-spiritedness on the part of a silk-lister whom we all like to get together and take on sometimes http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2296559004/ Thank you, Nallu/Shiv/Dr Sastry..imagine, a whole notice with grammar and spellings perfect...note gate watchman or duty policemen. Could you tell us..or at least me...how this notice came to be put up in front of Lalbagh West Gate, which I know is five minutes from your home? Deepa.
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
I have to cheat. Udhay suggested I post an intro, since I just joinedthe list yesterday. I was going to do so after lurking for a day ortwo. But here's a topic that I am happy to jump wholeheartedly into. And skip the caution or the intro. I like the content of Dr. Sastry's message here. (Aside: Whatdid the signboard cost you ?). Rather than the idea of cynicism comingwith the deterioration of the good ole Raj, I think that popularapathy began as a response to the British Raj. It wasn't a democracyunder the Raj, and as Colonial subjects we had to accept what ourgoverning body did. Once India gained freedom, we continued to accept.But what changed was that we now openly complained about it. On the one hand I find myself proud of the vibrantly participatingdemocracy that we have in the country. Every law and every bill isprotested loudly. However, this is often done by what Washington wouldcall Special interest groups. The privileged, educated, common, urbandweller, in my observation (and I'd love hear if I'm wrong), remainscynical and aloof. So on the other hand I find myself frustrated aboutthe point made below - that so many people in the socio-economiccategory that I know well don't participate. Or participate only in limitedways. Three possible reasons that I think apathy occurs in the minds of the privileged: 1) For justified and unjustified reasons, it's easier more timeefficient to remain on the outside as Dr. Sastry says. We all tend totake group responsibilities more lightly than individual ones, becauseindividual accountability for it is low, and because the perceivedchange / rewards are weak. 2) Language barrier. Government in Bangalore still conducts business inKannada, so a person may hesitate to participate until s/he had decentcommand of the language. (I'm sure the Kannada in Bangalore discussionhas already been held at this venue and this is not meant to provokeconversion on that front.) 3) Perceived social hierarchy of govt. officials. (Where did the termGovernment Servant come from ?). Many do not consider them equals andtherefore have a pre-conceived notion (justified or not) about how theywould think or what their actions may be. (Thus it intrigues me thatDr. Sastry says that plain clothes on-duty policemen are friends - canwe hear more ?) So I've jumped in. Are there any government official / ex-governmentofficials on this list who can comment ? Thoughts from others ? - Anjana aka Shortindiangirl aka SIG aka The smaller the better aka STB. - Original Message From: ss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:33:28 PM Subject: Re: [silk] Lost and Found Heck - I am being exposed am I? But let me rant a bit. Getting any board painted is a pain because you have to struggle with what the painter thinks the spelling and grammar should be versus what you think you know. And I typically tend to translate my own English into a kind of Indian English that people seem to relate to better in India - knowing and acknowledging that I am, at the core, a Macaulay-putra. This particular sign was a request from one of the on duty plain-clothes policemen in the are whom I can recognise from a mile and who are mostly friends of mine. A little data point. If you need a sign that says no parking or something else to be put up by the roadside you can ask the local traffic police chief (whom one can meet at any local police station) for permission. After that you are free to get a sign painted using a standard template and you can even have a little board that says it was sponsored by you or your business. The police are chromically short of funds and people and do cooperate with the community for community related issues. We the educated tend to see government employees very cynically - as corrupt and incorrigible. This only adds on to the impression of corruption of these groups held by those who are poorer, less empowered and more vulnerable than us. Unfortunately we who are wealthy are also independent enough to be cynical and escape the worst effects of corruption. One pro-active step that we the empowered and wealthy can take is to involve ourselves with the government officials and machinery - starting with local police, water supply and electricity depts. Meeting the senior officials and setting time aside just for that gives a good insight into exactly who is corrupt and in what manner and who is not corrupt and is genuinely trying to do a job. The experience is extremely edifying and gives one a good handle on what is what and gives one new insight into how things work or don't work. It makes one join society rather than sit physically within but mentally outside that society, commenting superciliously and boringly on all its ills. But this requires rising out of the college level cynicism that many of us develop with influence from parents and grandparents who perceive
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
ARGH: Copying pasting = random deletion of spaces. Please ignore previous message for better readability of this one. I have to cheat. Udhay suggested I post an intro, since I justjoined the list yesterday. I was going to do so after lurking for a dayor two. But here's a topic that I am happy to jump wholeheartedly into.And skip the caution or the intro. I like the content of Dr.Sastry's message here. (Aside: What did the signboard cost you ?).Rather than the idea of cynicism coming with the deterioration of thegood ole Raj, I think that popular apathy began as a response to theBritish Raj. It wasn't a democracy under the Raj, and as Colonialsubjects we had to accept what our governing body did. Once India gainedfreedom, we continued to accept.But what changed was that we now openlycomplained about it. On the one hand I find myself proud of thevibrantly participating democracy that we have in the country. Every lawand every bill is protested loudly. However, this is often done by whatWashington would call Special interest groups. The privileged,educated, common, urban dweller, in my observation (and I'd love hear ifI'm wrong), remains cynical and aloof. So on the other hand I findmyself frustrated about the point made below - that so many people inthe socio-economic category that I know well don't participate. Orparticipate only in limited ways. Three possible reasons that I think apathy occurs in the minds of the privileged: 1)For justified and unjustified reasons, it's easier moretime efficient to remain on the outside as Dr. Sastry says. We alltend to take group responsibilities more lightly than individual ones,because individual accountability for it is low, and because theperceived change / rewards are weak. 2) Language barrier.Government in Bangalore still conducts business in Kannada, so a personmay hesitate to participate until s/he had decent command of thelanguage. (I'm sure the Kannada in Bangalore discussion has already beenheld at this venue and this is not meant to provoke conversion on thatfront.) 3) Perceived social hierarchy of govt. officials. (Wheredid the term Government Servant come from ?). Many do not consider themequals and therefore have a pre-conceived notion (justified or not)about how they would think or what their actions may be. (Thus itintrigues me that Dr. Sastry says that plain clothes on-duty policemenare friends - can we hear more ?) So I've jumped in. Are thereany government official / ex-government officials on this list who cancomment ? Thoughts from others ? - Anjana aka Shortindiangirl aka SIG aka The smaller the better aka STB. - Original Message From: ss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:33:28 PM Subject: Re: [silk] Lost and Found Heck - I am being exposed am I? But let me rant a bit. Getting any board painted is a pain because you have to struggle with what the painter thinks the spelling and grammar should be versus what you think you know. And I typically tend to translate my own English into a kind of Indian English that people seem to relate to better in India - knowing and acknowledging that I am, at the core, a Macaulay-putra. This particular sign was a request from one of the on duty plain-clothes policemen in the are whom I can recognise from a mile and who are mostly friends of mine. A little data point. If you need a sign that says no parking or something else to be put up by the roadside you can ask the local traffic police chief (whom one can meet at any local police station) for permission. After that you are free to get a sign painted using a standard template and you can even have a little board that says it was sponsored by you or your business. The police are chromically short of funds and people and do cooperate with the community for community related issues. We the educated tend to see government employees very cynically - as corrupt and incorrigible. This only adds on to the impression of corruption of these groups held by those who are poorer, less empowered and more vulnerable than us. Unfortunately we who are wealthy are also independent enough to be cynical and escape the worst effects of corruption. One pro-active step that we the empowered and wealthy can take is to involve ourselves with the government officials and machinery - starting with local police, water supply and electricity depts. Meeting the senior officials and setting time aside just for that gives a good insight into exactly who is corrupt and in what manner and who is not corrupt and is genuinely trying to do a job. The experience is extremely edifying and gives one a good handle on what is what and gives one new insight into how things work or don't work. It makes one join society rather than sit physically within but mentally outside that society, commenting superciliously and boringly on all its ills. But this requires rising
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
So you finally landed on silk? Thought just your mom was here, and she's become a regular in such a short time :) Welcome. 3) Perceived social hierarchy of govt. officials. (Where did the termGovernment Servant come from ?). Many do not consider them equals It is more like bureaucracy and red tape. My inlaws are both minor officials in local government (mother in law works for the madras corporation - city hall basically, and father in law used to work for the state housing board). So they'll probably tell you more, but there are several processes in place that are hidebound by red tape and not very transparent at all. There's further not all that much incentive to do anything more when the senior officials are political creatures, and the mayor + city corporators are again politicians, some with inconveniences like pending warrants against them that make it a bit impractical for them to actually attend corporation meetings. This fine soul for example, the deputy mayor of Madras - http://in.rediff.com/election/2006/apr/13ptn4.htm [Karate because he's a karate black belt and runs a rather profitable chain of dojos - some of it is of course hired muscle as well] srs
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
So the bureaucracy is one justified 'time-efficiency' detractor. Maybe our Indian civic responsibility should lead us to pledge to unravel one reel of red tape per year, or something like that. Suppose each of us were to follow up any one of our dealings with the government in the fair, honest, right and proper way, no matter how long it takes - would that be a way to participate in the machinery ? - Original Message From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:39:45 PM Subject: Re: [silk] Lost and Found So you finally landed on silk? Thought just your mom was here, and she's become a regular in such a short time :) Welcome. 3) Perceived social hierarchy of govt. officials. (Where did the termGovernment Servant come from ?). Many do not consider them equals It is more like bureaucracy and red tape. My inlaws are both minor officials in local government (mother in law works for the madras corporation - city hall basically, and father in law used to work for the state housing board). So they'll probably tell you more, but there are several processes in place that are hidebound by red tape and not very transparent at all. There's further not all that much incentive to do anything more when the senior officials are political creatures, and the mayor + city corporators are again politicians, some with inconveniences like pending warrants against them that make it a bit impractical for them to actually attend corporation meetings. This fine soul for example, the deputy mayor of Madras - http://in.rediff.com/election/2006/apr/13ptn4.htm [Karate because he's a karate black belt and runs a rather profitable chain of dojos - some of it is of course hired muscle as well] srs Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
The smaller the better wrote, [on 2/28/2008 10:07 AM]: ARGH: Copying pasting = random deletion of spaces. Please ignore previous message for better readability of this one. I have to cheat. Udhay suggested I post an intro, since I justjoined the list yesterday. I was going to do so after lurking for a dayor two. Welcome, though I am curious how you managed to post to silklist from this address - when I added your hotmail address to the list. Suresh? Any ideas? Udhay
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
I actually have done that - for getting my passport an additional booklet and similar stuff. The vast majority of govt office clerks are quite honest and as long as their huge number of forms get filled in right and submitted right (stapled in the right order, seal from officer X here, and signature from officer Y there), your job eventually gets done. In a fairly reasonable amount of time, and all above board. There are some people though, that shamelessly angle for a bribe, and those you can spot quite easily. Not much of a workaround around them too, when they are the concerned person for a particular issue. Sure, you could go get the anti corruption bureau people to go after them and bust them for this, or complain to the PRO / RTI contact etc for the department etc. But that will take a lot of time, time that you may not have available. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of The smaller the better Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:27 AM To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Lost and Found So the bureaucracy is one justified 'time-efficiency' detractor. Maybe our Indian civic responsibility should lead us to pledge to unravel one reel of red tape per year, or something like that. Suppose each of us were to follow up any one of our dealings with the government in the fair, honest, right and proper way, no matter how long it takes - would that be a way to participate in the machinery ? - Original Message From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 10:39:45 PM Subject: Re: [silk] Lost and Found So you finally landed on silk? Thought just your mom was here, and she's become a regular in such a short time :) Welcome. 3) Perceived social hierarchy of govt. officials. (Where did the termGovernment Servant come from ?). Many do not consider them equals It is more like bureaucracy and red tape. My inlaws are both minor officials in local government (mother in law works for the madras corporation - city hall basically, and father in law used to work for the state housing board). So they'll probably tell you more, but there are several processes in place that are hidebound by red tape and not very transparent at all. There's further not all that much incentive to do anything more when the senior officials are political creatures, and the mayor + city corporators are again politicians, some with inconveniences like pending warrants against them that make it a bit impractical for them to actually attend corporation meetings. This fine soul for example, the deputy mayor of Madras - http://in.rediff.com/election/2006/apr/13ptn4.htm [Karate because he's a karate black belt and runs a rather profitable chain of dojos - some of it is of course hired muscle as well] srs ___ _ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
$ sudo list_members silklist|grep short [sudo] password for suresh: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Welcome, though I am curious how you managed to post to silklist from this address - when I added your hotmail address to the list. Suresh? Any ideas? There's just 5 hotmail addresses signed up to the list - and none of them says shortindiangirl. [comparison: 92 gmail addresses, 23 yahoo, out of a total of 209. Just 209? I thought silklist was far larger]
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
On 2/28/08, The smaller the better [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the bureaucracy is one justified 'time-efficiency' detractor. Maybe our Indian civic responsibility should lead us to pledge to unravel one reel of red tape per year, or something like that. Suppose each of us were to follow up any one of our dealings with the government in the fair, honest, right and proper way, no matter how long Dunno if PSU banks fall in the government category but my first-hand experience of bureaucracy (usually an excuse to not do the work they get paid for) was when money deposited in my account was going elsewhere (the bankers didnt know where?) and another persons money was being deposited in my account the short:: it took me 3 months** to actually get them to remove the man's money from my account and return mine. The upside of my experience was even illiterate strangers seen talking to me got excellent service thereon from that particular branch ;-) ** of daily visits to the local branch which would only start functioning at 11AM, armed with applications in duplicate signed by witnesses, innumerable ID proofs, not to mention the photocopies and paperwork. - || vid ||
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
At 2008-02-27 20:57:14 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Suppose each of us were to follow up any one of our dealings with the government in the fair, honest, right and proper way, no matter how long it takes - would that be a way to participate in the machinery? When I wanted to get a driver's license (in 1999), everyone told me to go to one of the many driving schools, which would get me the license without the hassle of going to the RTO. Off I went to a driving school, where the proprietor was very rude to me (though I forget exactly how). I was sufficiently annoyed that I decided to get the license the right way, i.e. by going to the nearest RTO and writing the test and whatnot. Well, it was really simple. I got the right forms, filled them in, gave the (hilarious, multiple-choice[1]) exam for a learner's license, then returned some months later to get my license, found out that they had accidentally issued a motorcycle learner's license earlier, got them to fix that (which they did with a minimum of fuss: it's the same test for either), got a medical certificate from a doctor sitting around nearby, gave my (embarrassingly simple[2]) driving test, and got my license the next day. It was dreadfully satisfying to get my license the Right Way, when *everyone* I knew had paid a driving school to get it for them. (Hi Anjana. Welcome to silk.) -- ams 1. What would you do if you are speeding downhill? c) Grip the steering wheel more tightly 2. I went to the empty, closed-off parking lot where the examiner was, and realised that he expected me to bring the car there. I told him to wait, went to the outside parking lot and brought the car over. I got out of the car, and he signed my form, and sent me on my way.
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
Heh: Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: So you finally landed on silk? Thought just your mom was here, and she's become a regular in such a short time :) Welcome. Not for a want of trying, I can assure you. From 2004, to now, just a short four years of public threatening.. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silk-list/message/10847 Cheerio, M -- Madhu M Kurup /* Nemo Me Impune Lacessit */ mmk222 at cornell dt edu
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
I changed the address I was listed under. Anjana. - Original Message From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:06:25 PM Subject: Re: [silk] Lost and Found $ sudo list_members silklist|grep short [sudo] password for suresh: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Welcome, though I am curious how you managed to post to silklist from this address - when I added your hotmail address to the list. Suresh? Any ideas? There's just 5 hotmail addresses signed up to the list - and none of them says shortindiangirl. [comparison: 92 gmail addresses, 23 yahoo, out of a total of 209. Just 209? I thought silklist was far larger] Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [silk] Lost and Found
I'm afraid my experience was quite the opposite. I started, determined to do it the right way, but ended up confusedly caving in. After passing all the written rounds easily, I brought the car around to pick up the officer. I drove fairly flawlessly around Koramangla, tackling the heel toe on the hill with ease. Finally the officer said, Do a right reverse turn. I asked whether I should reverse to the right or if I should reverse in such a manner that I go to the right in the end. The officer gruffly said that I should do whatever. So I reversed right to end up facing left. He irritatedly said, Go go motioning me towards the testing center in a huff. Having performed all other actions perfectly, I felt that the right reverse turn would have been wrong either way. I didn't even know (nor did I want to) how to ask the Officer if he wanted some tea with biscuits. Some weeks later, on the advice of a neighbor, I enrolled in the famous Shridhar driving school. Shridhar driving school, my neighbor had allegedly assured my mother, was so reputable that the DMV traffic policemen regularly passed its high calibre graduates. Shridhar driving school, as it turned out, was also a stationery shop below the DMV. Past the tempting array of Camel Geometry boxes, I remember eying the Hero pens in their wrappers as I wiggled onto a tall stool in front of the cashier. I wondered if it was somehow a simulation of the driving seat. Well - I knew how to drive, so this driving school thing should be a breeze, and if it earned me the credibility stamp that the DMV was looking for, it was worthwhile. The cashier took my payment for driving lessons. And then asked me to go get in my car. Puzzled, I asked who would be coming with me. Officer. Aha, how clever I thought, an Officer himself trains the candidates - no wonder everyone passed the test! Shridhar driving school, far from driving any candidate anywhere, was a stationAry shop. And the payment I had made for driving lessons was the basis of a Memorandum of Understanding between Shridhar Stationery and the DMV Officer. From the balcony above, the DMV officer asked me to start the car and move it a very bewildered 10 feet forward. I peered up through the windshield for the next instruction to see the Officer scribbling on a pad. A tea boy who had, just a few minutes ago, anonymously handed out tea at Shridhar Stationery, waved his metal tray and signalled a thumbs up to me and Shridhar down below. Still a bit dazed, I returned to the awkwardly tall stool in front of Shridhar for 2 hours while my paperwork was done (covered by the fee for the lessons) and my photo laminated for an International license. Having since endanged the lives of countless folks in St. Louis, MO. I still don't know what a right reverse turn is. Anjana. - Original Message From: Abhijit Menon-Sen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:24:11 PM Subject: Re: [silk] Lost and Found At 2008-02-27 20:57:14 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Suppose each of us were to follow up any one of our dealings with the government in the fair, honest, right and proper way, no matter how long it takes - would that be a way to participate in the machinery? When I wanted to get a driver's license (in 1999), everyone told me to go to one of the many driving schools, which would get me the license without the hassle of going to the RTO. Off I went to a driving school, where the proprietor was very rude to me (though I forget exactly how). I was sufficiently annoyed that I decided to get the license the right way, i.e. by going to the nearest RTO and writing the test and whatnot. Well, it was really simple. I got the right forms, filled them in, gave the (hilarious, multiple-choice[1]) exam for a learner's license, then returned some months later to get my license, found out that they had accidentally issued a motorcycle learner's license earlier, got them to fix that (which they did with a minimum of fuss: it's the same test for either), got a medical certificate from a doctor sitting around nearby, gave my (embarrassingly simple[2]) driving test, and got my license the next day. It was dreadfully satisfying to get my license the Right Way, when *everyone* I knew had paid a driving school to get it for them. (Hi Anjana. Welcome to silk.) -- ams 1. What would you do if you are speeding downhill? c) Grip the steering wheel more tightly 2. I went to the empty, closed-off parking lot where the examiner was, and realised that he expected me to bring the car there. I told him to wait, went to the outside parking lot and brought the car over. I got out of the car, and he signed my form, and sent me on my way. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
