Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
Interestingly BoingBoing put this up today: --- The Boy Who Loved Math: The Improbable Life of Paul Erdőshttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1596433078/downandoutint-20is a beautifully written, beautifully illustrated kids' biography of Paul Erdős, the fantastically prolific itinerant mathematician who published more papers than any other mathematician in history. *Boy* is written by Deborah Heiligman, with illustrations by LeUyen Pham, and the pair really worked to weave numbers and mathematics through the text, with lively, fun illustrations of a young Erdős learning about negative numbers, becoming obsessed with prime numbers and leading his high-school chums on a mathematical tour of Budapest. They also go to great lengths to capture the upside and downside of Erdős's legendary eccentricity -- his inability to fend for himself and his helplessness when it came to everyday tasks like cooking and doing laundry; his amazing generosity and brilliance and empathy in his working and personal life. Ultimately, this is a book that celebrates the idea of following your weird, wooing the muse of the odd, and playing to your strengths rather than agonizing over your weaknesses. It's an inspiring and sweet tale of one of humanity's greatest mathematicians, and a parable about the magic of passion and obsession. My daughter, who is five, demanded that I read it to her three times in a row, over three bedtimes, which is always a vote of confidence. --- from: http://boingboing.net/2013/06/25/the-boy-who-loved-math-th.html On 26 June 2013 08:44, Charles Haynes charles.hay...@gmail.com wrote: at least in the USA it's clear that girls are steered away from STEM curricula by a variety of mechansims, primarily social. Girls aren't supposed to like Maths, and so they don't. Girls that show an interest or aptitude are subtly or not so subtly told that this is inappropriate, that they're weird, that they will be unpopular, and so on. In fact until they're told they should be bad at it, girls generally show higher aptitude for maths than boys of comparable age. -- Charles
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 08:44:09AM +0800, Charles Haynes wrote: at least in the USA it's clear that girls are steered away from STEM curricula by a variety of mechansims, primarily social. Girls aren't supposed to like Maths, and so they don't. Girls that show an interest or aptitude are subtly or not so subtly told that this is inappropriate, that they're weird, that they will be unpopular, and so on. In fact until they're told they should be bad at it, girls generally show higher aptitude for maths than boys of comparable age. I'm not buying that explanation. I expect that the divergence happens at puberty. Does it?
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 06/26/2013 04:15 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 08:44:09AM +0800, Charles Haynes wrote: at least in the USA it's clear that girls are steered away from STEM curricula by a variety of mechansims, primarily social. Girls aren't supposed to like Maths, and so they don't. Girls that show an interest or aptitude are subtly or not so subtly told that this is inappropriate, that they're weird, that they will be unpopular, and so on. In fact until they're told they should be bad at it, girls generally show higher aptitude for maths than boys of comparable age. I'm not buying that explanation. I expect that the divergence happens at puberty. Does it? I'd be interested in seeing the studies that report the results Charles is discussing, if for no other reason than to see how they conducted determining when society told girls that math proficiency was bad. On the other hand though, there is Claude Steele's stereotype threat, which has had some really interesting applications and results, especially when you change which stereotype identity is forefront in a person's mind. For example, he (I believe, may have been one of his grad students) found a number of mathematically skilled (read graduate level) asian women in the US. Stereotypically, women are worse at math than men, asians are adept at it. Depending on which stereotype the test groups were made salient towards significantly changed their test scores on a standardised maths exam. The real takeaway though is that cultural forces, like those Charles believes 'doom' young girls are actually somewhat easy to mitigate, both from a social norms perspective, and the stereotype threat standpoint. For the former, every time a woman ends up being held up as a unique success in maths, engineering, etc it actually hurts the cause because it reinforces the cultural view that 'normal' girls do not do math, and thus reverses the intended effect. The solution is instead to create the pervasive belief that women are normally involved in these fields. I'd consider that more of informing the public than creating propaganda, since many women are actually involved already. Robert Cialdini has some interesting papers, but my favourite anecdote is from a contract he did at a state park in Arizona. It turned out that despite significant efforts to reduce the number of people from taking fossils (mainly in the way of signs: please don't take any more fossils or there will be no more left), the depletion rate actually increased after the public campaign. It turns out that being told that other people were taking fossils significantly affected the odds of you doing it as well (called the descriptive norm), despite the signs indicating the maladaptive consequences (and illegality). A similar analyses was done the Iron Eye's Cody service announcement, and it was found that it actually caused more littering in a number of regions. Stereotype threat is actually even simpler to alleviate, although it needs to take place at a more individual level. The threat works essentially because in alienating situations where they are clear outliers (ethnicity for example), people tend to adopt behaviours that others expect of them, so that they more conform within society. It turns out something as simple as a written self-affirmation (I am good at math, I want to be a) works pretty well at negating the regression to the stereotype. The actual function of this is still unknown, but it works, for children and adults, surprisingly enough. At a meta-analytic proposition, the self-affirmation likely decreases the existential threat from the isolation, and the subject is able to maintain internal integrity, rather than needing to regress to the stereotype. landon - -- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJRyqxaAAoJEDeph/0fVJWs0lQP/0DkOIGkfpX3pQwF4YveyIJ+ tfKoiuV4RGrUNYS+27rrMs5pX1zvRHwlI1CMmbtyVdtnVAjos9ZdZUF96njK0wmt rOU2eiKl2W4FOVFemwpxrx9s4M0n8fK0iShQO3rhi4Wb6F3Fl/mjmby3Xf7C29bZ Vxwic2OkxjN+GvJc++esAhVnq6yapo+BoN02qLmGA6H3dXyl6XAyZpQPnnvpSI81 qiDtyJBx+fYpDXq809Fb5fxh33Vr9WWkJRu7LN9gGxCe9FNbzs9mzayOjOzn9Adt oTXmMEK9oHm1+JD9/Rt7B5DUFHvtuXz5ebwz1cxWgsPJb4lAjg/LBaUER2VCMScB kRguDji3eQv42prrocCEgsyA9//zV2IUO1yBSBS1eyFEaO9r9WRI+p89Ta267TBR H9ydxvxAgiugAq7aKr5TqIk6AqEzH1T3lHQCcZ/oJK2EAbrohCuy9z2JXJmeFOIF 591KYOWFdOyo8x3NIBsrXJloJOEq2v/E73Ayx28lbNuQxQl/6+CnuxXE8N+zMge3 WzTbYRUi0bW15MzUZqAjhjfO4b3iSyl2FsyQJoGwDMLK4msAVwi8BmsBxmYQL0XA MkikveG+wxckBJpckalyXoTipF+cYe8N+0L7RsVH3a1Yh6F26CUaz3Oe5IXmcJuQ wH15XB8xYe9sXtsgUDrQ =ANIy -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On 6/26/13 1:15 AM June 26, 2013, Eugen Leitl wrote: On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 08:44:09AM +0800, Charles Haynes wrote: at least in the USA it's clear that girls are steered away from STEM curricula by a variety of mechansims, primarily social. Girls aren't supposed to like Maths, and so they don't. Girls that show an interest or aptitude are subtly or not so subtly told that this is inappropriate, that they're weird, that they will be unpopular, and so on. In fact until they're told they should be bad at it, girls generally show higher aptitude for maths than boys of comparable age. I'm not buying that explanation. I expect that the divergence happens at puberty. Does it? In the US, girls now outscore boys in math through high school. The subtle (and-not-so-subtle) discouragement continues all the way up. One of the reasons I chose to homeschool my children was that I wanted my daughters to experience the full ability of their brains without such discouragement. My eldest recently graduated college with a computer science degree. She worked as a math and physics tutor, and her toughest job as a tutor was helping students overcome their conditioning against being able to handle math and physics. We had an interesting demonstration of subtle bias this last semester. My middle kids took the same college math class with the same professor (someone recommended by their eldest sister). Both kids are gifted in math, both did excellently well, but my daughter's exams were graded harder than her brother's, and the professor's comments to my son were encouraging while his comments to my daughter were discouraging. He acted, in short, like my daughter wasn't really bright enough to handle this stuff and that her mistakes were proof of that. My son's mistakes, on the other hand, were perfectly excusable and no evidence at all against his natural aptitude. It didn't make a difference in their final grades. If they had been closer to the border, however, the differential grading and encouragement could have pushed my daughter's grade down and my son's grade up. -- Heather Madrone (heat...@madrone.com) http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com Live sweetly in bitter times.
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
What makes us detest certain subjects at school, and why is Maths (or Math) frequently at the top of the list? cf http://www.maa.org/devlin/lockhartslament.pdf
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
at least in the USA it's clear that girls are steered away from STEM curricula by a variety of mechansims, primarily social. Girls aren't supposed to like Maths, and so they don't. Girls that show an interest or aptitude are subtly or not so subtly told that this is inappropriate, that they're weird, that they will be unpopular, and so on. In fact until they're told they should be bad at it, girls generally show higher aptitude for maths than boys of comparable age. -- Charles
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 22:10 +0530, Deepa Mohan wrote: I wrote this some time agosomeone else referred to it on FB recently (yes...a woman.) What makes us detest certain subjects at school, and why is Maths (or Math) frequently at the top of the list? It can't always be bad teachers I think it is a combination of aptitude (innate ability) versus curriculum. Maths teaching in Indian schools demands that a certain degree of math skill must be acquired in a specified period of time and proof of such skill be demonstrated in an examination in which you are supposed to do math and get all the answers right within, you guessed it, a specified period of time. Math teaching links math with time which is a mistake. Poorly worded math problems with ambiguous meanings sometimes add of a high school child's woes. There are some math skills which one child may master in a few weeks but another child may need two years before he can do the same consistently. The latter child is dubbed weak in maths and begins to hate or fear the subject. There are some math problems that one child will get 100% correct if he is not forced to do them in 3 minutes or 5 minutes. Such a child may get every problem perfectly right if he is given two or three hours rather than one in a test. You are never given exactly 7 minutes to glance at your bank account books to ensure that it all tallies up for you. You can take as long as you like. Why are children treated differently? In World War II, teams of mathematicians (women mostly) were tasked with calculating and creating tables that would serve as a ready reference for artillery men who would need to know the exact angle at which the cannon had to be fired for the shell to land at a particular spot after taking into account air temperature, altitude, wind direction and speed, range of target, weight of shell and weight of propulsive charge. (This is done in milliseconds by computer now). But these women would be away from the front line and they would check and cross check their manual calculations for errors. A child who wants to do that with his work is prevented by putting a time limit. Why do we treat our children this way? I think people get put off math by unimaginative teaching and many people who are good at math are only good at hacking the math system and not good at math per se. I think it was Feynman (Deepa, Feynman was a Nobel prize winning physicist, and an extraordinarily brilliant man) who argued that it was more important to get the problem solving technique right rather the arrive at an answer that is spot on in math. sorry for the longish ramble... shiv
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
Maths teaching in Indian schools demands that a certain degree of math skill must be acquired in a specified period of time and proof of such skill be demonstrated in an examination in which you are supposed to do math and get all the answers right within, you guessed it, a specified period of time. Math teaching links math with time which is a mistake. Poorly worded math problems with ambiguous meanings sometimes add of a high school child's woes. There are some math skills which one child may master in a few weeks but another child may need two years before he can do the same consistently. The latter child is dubbed weak in maths and begins to hate or fear the subject. There are some math problems that one child will get 100% correct if he is not forced to do them in 3 minutes or 5 minutes. Such a child may get every problem perfectly right if he is given two or three hours rather than one in a test. You are never given exactly 7 minutes to glance at your bank account books to ensure that it all tallies up for you. You can take as long as you like. Why are children treated differently? Very pertinent points. When I look back I now realise that I enjoyed math more than anything else because I understood the early concepts quickly (maybe aptitude), did well, got labelled as a math person and that carried me through all my schooling. I probably put in more effort because I got positive feedback early. I actually suck at calculus but momentum carried me through. The positive feedback cycle is important for any initiative (learning stuff, losing weight etc) and that makes a big difference to individual motivation. D
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On Sat, 2013-06-22 at 09:38 +0530, Ingrid wrote: True confession: I love Maths. So do I actually, but I am (only slightly) hampered by lack of knowledge of anything more than elementary math with some algebra and trigonometry. I am always calculating things in my mind. I know for a fact that I make frequent silly errors in calculation (that is me and I am at peace with my own mind) and I keep cross checking to ensure that I get a consistent result for two or more consecutive iterations of solving a particular puzzle that I set myself. I love problems involving speed and movement which is why bullets and trajectory calculations fascinate me. A few weeks ago I spent a joyful few hours working out the physics of the internals of an air rifle that I took apart and adjusted to my liking, making careful measurements while I did that. (Bought a Vernier caliper just for that). But for me its a game. I love games. Maths should always be fun. Not forced labour. shiv
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: http://deponti.livejournal.com/902082.html I find that a lot of people on this list articulate far, far better than I do. It would help me understand my lifelong aversion to mathematics...and In my case the subjects I hated the most were biology and chemistry. I *loved* physics, but thought chemistry and biology - at least as taught to me in school - was entirely arbitrary in nature. It was only towards the end of high school I realized that Chemistry is just one corner of the physics tent and that evolutionary biology brought some amount of sense to biology. I used to not understand why I had to memorize the biological classification names of many organisms till I learned the history of classification, etc. Similar in chemistry, I did not understand why I had to memorize the Haber-Bosch process till it was put in context for me by some book. In other words, if I had had teachers who gave me the context for why we were studying something it would have made a world of difference. I would extend such teaching of the context to things beyond the natural sciences. It would have been nice to understand the context in which _Daffodils_ was written. the odder fact that though I never scored more than 40 percent in Hindi, it was so well taught throughout school and college that I love it as a language, though I disliked it as a subject of academic achievement. Hindi was the subject that I most consistently failed (except for the final exams). Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: In other words, if I had had teachers who gave me the context for why we were studying something it would have made a world of difference. I would extend such teaching of the context to things beyond the natural sciences. It would have been nice to understand the context in which _Daffodils_ was written. So, Thathsyou too (like most other people I know) are laying the aversion at the feet of bad (or at best, unimaginative) teachers. This is something I am still pondering about. Even allowing that I had bad teachers, why is it that I have made no effort in the years thereafter, to re-learn some mathematics, and see if I fare better? Is there a genuine lacuna in my brain with regard to this subject...or has the bad teaching created a lifetime mental block?
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
I have always found maths disgusting during school (where i scored well enough in it) and college (where I didn't), and today I find myself using maths to a larger and more practical extent than before - balancing a mutual fund portfolio and at work, pulling data and running numbers on it to give me information that I need. But the math I use is not quite rocket science and doesn't require me to waste four pages trying to prove it, so I rest content. As for the rest of it, I cheerfully admit to having forgotten everything from ohms law onwards within a few short weeks of getting a degree in electronics. What I don't use I consign to the dustbin of my memory .. which, in this case, is a blessed relief. --srs (iPad) On 21-Jun-2013, at 22:10, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: I wrote this some time agosomeone else referred to it on FB recently (yes...a woman.) What makes us detest certain subjects at school, and why is Maths (or Math) frequently at the top of the list? It can't always be bad teachers http://deponti.livejournal.com/902082.html I find that a lot of people on this list articulate far, far better than I do. It would help me understand my lifelong aversion to mathematics...and the odder fact that though I never scored more than 40 percent in Hindi, it was so well taught throughout school and college that I love it as a language, though I disliked it as a subject of academic achievement. Cheers, Deepa.
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: I wrote this some time agosomeone else referred to it on FB recently (yes...a woman.) What makes us detest certain subjects at school, and why is Maths (or Math) frequently at the top of the list? It can't always be bad teachers http://deponti.livejournal.com/902082.html It becomes very simple if we see it all as energy conservation. Evolution optimized us to be lazy - not absolutely of course, but relative to our comfort zone. There are no exceptions, everyone is lazy. Regardless of whether it is a physical, emotional or mental activity; anything that uses up energy is executed with meticulous planning by our body keeping in mind the available energy budget. Comfort zones or in other words, the limit of the energy budget varies from person to person. A fat and out of shape man might find a couple of floors of stairs daunting and might wait 10-15 minutes for the elevator. A literary critic might read several books a day, while most people will barely finish one book a year. Some can share their feelings or display love and affection quite easily, and others can be reserved and reticent emotionally. Our comfort zone is a result of our environment and training. We all hit our energy budget somewhere, but those with the right intentional training or the right environmental training know how to keep going. Climbing a mountain is nothing for one who lives in the hills, reading books is nothing for someone surrounded by them from an early age and speaking about their emotions is easier for those who weren't lonely children. When unaided by the environment, going beyond the energy budget for the first time requires motivation. Your motivation may vary. For those with a strong self improvement desire - like Thaths, seeing the logical connection with applications might be the key to expending mental energy. For others it could be desire to succeed, or please a parent or teacher, or something else. So we see people who do ridiculous things all the time with the right motivation and training. Maths is hated because it is like running, it uses ridiculous amounts of energy. Expert meditators can produce deep compassion and happiness that eludes most humans due to their training of their emotions. So emotional, mental and physical factors are all trainable with the right motivation. Of course, all are not equal, some are genetically gifted or blighted. The role of all teachers, parents and leaders is to motivate, train and lead. Loving parents produce children who can love, and be kind; inspiring teachers produce great students, and leaders who place their followers and the cause ahead of themselves produce great loyalty.
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On 22-Jun-2013, at 8:19, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: Maths is hated because it is like running, it uses ridiculous amounts of energy. The other factor is an opportunity cost in just where you want to spend those ridiculous amounts of energy. Like a nobel prize winning author might not care or even know just how to balance his checkbook, or a famous scientist might fall for a pitiful scam. At a slightly more ordinary level, someone who likes distance running and researches up everything from footwear and diet to breathing techniques will probably detest maths as well. I choose not to touch maths with a bargepole except where it has any relevance to me. --srs
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: In other words, if I had had teachers who gave me the context for why we were studying something it would have made a world of difference. I would extend such teaching of the context to things beyond the natural sciences. It would have been nice to understand the context in which _Daffodils_ was written. So, Thathsyou too (like most other people I know) are laying the aversion at the feet of bad (or at best, unimaginative) teachers. I'm only blaming my lackluster teachers for my then lack of interest. In many cases (like the Biology and Chemistry examples I gave) I've gotten over my aversion and developed an interest. This is something I am still pondering about. Even allowing that I had bad teachers, why is it that I have made no effort in the years thereafter, to re-learn some mathematics, and see if I fare better? Is there a genuine lacuna in my brain with regard to this subject...or has the bad teaching created a lifetime mental block? Among the subjects I was disinclined towards when I was in school, Hindi is probably the one subject for which I continue to have a disinterest. It is probably because I feel like I'm not missing much by not pursing it. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:49 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: Your motivation may vary. For those with a strong self improvement desire - like Thaths, seeing the logical connection with applications might be the key to expending mental energy. I don't know if it can be termed self improvement. It is just a simple desire for understanding the world we live in and for this world to make sense. Subjects like classical physics made intuitive sense to me. Subjects like Chemistry and Biology did not back then, but they do now. Things like poetry and Hindi still don't make sense to me. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
Re: [silk] Any pet-hate subjects? ...why is Mathematics so frequently hated?
On 21-Jun-2013, at 10:10 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: I wrote this some time agosomeone else referred to it on FB recently (yes...a woman.) What makes us detest certain subjects at school, and why is Maths (or Math) frequently at the top of the list? It can't always be bad teachers http://deponti.livejournal.com/902082.html I find that a lot of people on this list articulate far, far better than I do. It would help me understand my lifelong aversion to mathematics...and the odder fact that though I never scored more than 40 percent in Hindi, it was so well taught throughout school and college that I love it as a language, though I disliked it as a subject of academic achievement. Cheers, Deepa. True confession: I love Maths. Always have. In fact it's the only subject I stayed true to through the twists and turns of my academic choices. I even changed colleges to be able to keep Maths when I dropped Physics, Chemistry and the like for Economics. This is not to say I'm great at it. My abilities at Maths are on par with my piano playing skills - at best those of a hobbyist. But, like the piano playing, 'doing maths', or just reading about it, provides a particular kind of joy that I feel only when I do something for itself rather than as a means to some end. Being a math geek alienated me from many female classmates and colleagues. Literally alienated since they reacted as they might to an extra-terrestrial species. Boyfriends (that didn't last) have said they found it intimidating. I had adequate Maths teachers, not great ones, so my explorations were mostly self-navigated. That said, the quality of teaching one receives does seem to matter. I know people who have discovered the joy of Maths, and/or overcome their fear of it, thanks to a good teacher. Based on my experience, I think teachers who can evoke in their students a love of discovery are far more valuable than those who make a particular subject interesting. What do I love about Maths? The elegance and economy of its expression. The pleasure of puzzle solving. Its abstractness. There are subjects I've struggled with. Hindi was a particular bugbear, particularly since other languages seemed to yield their secrets more easily. Most of my Hindi learning came through Bollywood and through learning other languages which helped me make sense of Hindi. Thanks for the question, Deepa. It brought back that joyful feeling at a time I was in an annoyed, irritable mood.
