Re: [Simh] RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape

2016-01-08 Thread Johnny Billquist 

On 2016-01-08 20:24, Paul Koning wrote:



On Jan 8, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Clem Cole  wrote:

I asked our (Intel's) corporate librarians to see if they could find X3.27-xxx 
and in particular -1969 (the original) and -1978 which was version 3.   I agree 
with Paul, that V3 (-1978) was the version that most people implemented. I 
seems to remember that, VMS started with V2 and upgraded to 3 - as I remember 
on VAX Serial #1 trying to read tapes from it on the 360 or the Univac was 
funky.

I wish I could remember what changed between the versions.  I once knew, and 
I've sent a note to one of my old housemates that wrote some of the VMS tape 
support years ago.  He might remember/have some of this stuff.


I think, but this is a *very* vague memory, that one of the later additions was 
the addition of the century number to the date fields. Originally, ANSI labels 
were not Y2K compliant.


I think that is correct. RSX handles years past 1999 on ANSI tapes. And 
I remember that one additional digit was allocated for that use which I 
think was just a space or something before.


Johnny

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Re: [Simh] RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape

2016-01-08 Thread Clem Cole 
I asked our (Intel's) corporate librarians to see if they could find
X3.27-xxx and in particular -1969 (the original) and -1978 which was
version 3.   I agree with Paul, that V3 (-1978) was the version that most
people implemented. I seems to remember that, VMS started with V2 and
upgraded to 3 - as I remember on VAX Serial #1 trying to read tapes from it
on the 360 or the Univac was funky.

I wish I could remember what changed between the versions.  I once knew,
and I've sent a note to one of my old housemates that wrote some of the VMS
tape support years ago.  He might remember/have some of this stuff.


Anyway, I'm trying to find my old copies the documents, but I fear they
might have been lost in the apt flood of a few years ago (I lost some
historical stuff in that that my wife made to toss).   At one time, I had a
photocopy of the -1969 with my IBM/360 files.  I know I still have one of
the best document on using tapes CMUs Computer Center wrote in the early
1960s (I know I do still have it because I found that and referred to it
last summer).  Anyway, I'll keep looking this weekend.

BTW: the current version of the spec is not ANSI X3 mumble...  It's now
called:   INCITS 27-1987 [S2008]
http://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=INCITS+27-1987%5bS2008%5d


It's $60 from ANSI

Clem

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:

>
> > On Jan 8, 2016, at 11:19 AM, khandy21yo  wrote:
> >
> >
> > The programming manual that I foubd for rsrs.e documents it as 1.
> > Thats the only documentation I have for the format, so went with what I
> had, and compared it against rsts distribution tapes. Not ideal, but better
> than nothing.
>
> I should have been more specific.  According to the sources, RSTS V10.1
> does ANSI label format version 3.  I don't know about older versions.
>
> paul
>
>
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Re: [Simh] RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape

2016-01-08 Thread Johnny Billquist 

On 2016-01-08 17:05, Paul Koning wrote:



On Jan 7, 2016, at 9:46 PM, Larry Baker  wrote:

...
I have two copies of the ANSI X3.27 standard: -1978 (version 3) and -1987 
(version 4); -1969 was version 1, which I do not have.  The version number is 
written as the last (80th) character of the VOL1 (the first) label on the tape. 
 I'll bet most DEC systems implemented version 3.


RSTS/E does version 3.


RSX-11M-PLUS writes a 4.

Johnny

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Re: [Simh] RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape

2016-01-08 Thread Timothe Litt 
And.. Looking a bit harder, from the same source, the 1987 version.

This communication may not represent my employer's views,
if any, on the matters discussed. 

On 08-Jan-16 14:13, Clem Cole wrote:
> I asked our (Intel's) corporate librarians to see if they could find
> X3.27-xxx and in particular -1969 (the original) and -1978 which was
> version 3.   I agree with Paul, that V3 (-1978) was the version that
> most people implemented. I seems to remember that, VMS started with V2
> and upgraded to 3 - as I remember on VAX Serial #1 trying to read
> tapes from it on the 360 or the Univac was funky.
>
> I wish I could remember what changed between the versions.  I once
> knew, and I've sent a note to one of my old housemates that wrote some
> of the VMS tape support years ago.  He might remember/have some of
> this stuff.
>
>
> Anyway, I'm trying to find my old copies the documents, but I fear
> they might have been lost in the apt flood of a few years ago (I lost
> some historical stuff in that that my wife made to toss).   At one
> time, I had a photocopy of the -1969 with my IBM/360 files.  I know I
> still have one of the best document on using tapes CMUs Computer
> Center wrote in the early 1960s (I know I do still have it because I
> found that and referred to it last summer).  Anyway, I'll keep looking
> this weekend.
>
> BTW: the current version of the spec is not ANSI X3 mumble...  It's
> now called:   INCITS 27-1987 [S2008]
> http://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=INCITS+27-1987%5bS2008%5d
>
>
> It's $60 from ANSI
>
> Clem
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Paul Koning  > wrote:
>
>
> > On Jan 8, 2016, at 11:19 AM, khandy21yo  > wrote:
> >
> >
> > The programming manual that I foubd for rsrs.e documents it as 1.
> > Thats the only documentation I have for the format, so went with
> what I had, and compared it against rsts distribution tapes. Not
> ideal, but better than nothing.
>
> I should have been more specific.  According to the sources, RSTS
> V10.1 does ANSI label format version 3.  I don't know about older
> versions.
>
> paul
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [Simh] RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape

2016-01-08 Thread Timothe Litt 
I have x3.27-1978.  It's about 65 pages.  Appendix C lists the
differences wrt 1969.

I inherited my copy from the implementer of TOPS-10 labeled tapes...

This communication may not represent my employer's views,
if any, on the matters discussed. 

On 08-Jan-16 14:13, Clem Cole wrote:
> I asked our (Intel's) corporate librarians to see if they could find
> X3.27-xxx and in particular -1969 (the original) and -1978 which was
> version 3.   I agree with Paul, that V3 (-1978) was the version that
> most people implemented. I seems to remember that, VMS started with V2
> and upgraded to 3 - as I remember on VAX Serial #1 trying to read
> tapes from it on the 360 or the Univac was funky.
>
> I wish I could remember what changed between the versions.  I once
> knew, and I've sent a note to one of my old housemates that wrote some
> of the VMS tape support years ago.  He might remember/have some of
> this stuff.
>
>
> Anyway, I'm trying to find my old copies the documents, but I fear
> they might have been lost in the apt flood of a few years ago (I lost
> some historical stuff in that that my wife made to toss).   At one
> time, I had a photocopy of the -1969 with my IBM/360 files.  I know I
> still have one of the best document on using tapes CMUs Computer
> Center wrote in the early 1960s (I know I do still have it because I
> found that and referred to it last summer).  Anyway, I'll keep looking
> this weekend.
>
> BTW: the current version of the spec is not ANSI X3 mumble...  It's
> now called:   INCITS 27-1987 [S2008]
> http://webstore.ansi.org/RecordDetail.aspx?sku=INCITS+27-1987%5bS2008%5d
>
>
> It's $60 from ANSI
>
> Clem
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Paul Koning  > wrote:
>
>
> > On Jan 8, 2016, at 11:19 AM, khandy21yo  > wrote:
> >
> >
> > The programming manual that I foubd for rsrs.e documents it as 1.
> > Thats the only documentation I have for the format, so went with
> what I had, and compared it against rsts distribution tapes. Not
> ideal, but better than nothing.
>
> I should have been more specific.  According to the sources, RSTS
> V10.1 does ANSI label format version 3.  I don't know about older
> versions.
>
> paul
>
>
> ___
> Simh mailing list
> Simh@trailing-edge.com 
> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Simh] RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape

2016-01-08 Thread Larry Baker 
Paul,

On 8 Jan 2016, at 11:24 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> 
>> On Jan 8, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Clem Cole  wrote:
>> 
>> I asked our (Intel's) corporate librarians to see if they could find 
>> X3.27-xxx and in particular -1969 (the original) and -1978 which was version 
>> 3.   I agree with Paul, that V3 (-1978) was the version that most people 
>> implemented. I seems to remember that, VMS started with V2 and upgraded to 3 
>> - as I remember on VAX Serial #1 trying to read tapes from it on the 360 or 
>> the Univac was funky.
>> 
>> I wish I could remember what changed between the versions.  I once knew, and 
>> I've sent a note to one of my old housemates that wrote some of the VMS tape 
>> support years ago.  He might remember/have some of this stuff.
> 
> I think, but this is a *very* vague memory, that one of the later additions 
> was the addition of the century number to the date fields. Originally, ANSI 
> labels were not Y2K compliant.
> 
>   paul
> 


That is correct.  In X3.27-1978 (version 3) and earlier, date fields are 6 
characters " YYDDD".  The first character must be a space.  In X3.27-1987 
(version 4), the first character in date fields is either a space or a 0.  " 
YYDDD" are 19YY dates, "0YYDDD" are 20YY dates.

I have paper copies of -1978 and -1987.  I don't think it's legal to put them 
up on bitsavers, though.  I think you still have to purchase copies from 
whoever publishes them now.

Larry Baker
US Geological Survey
650-329-5608
ba...@usgs.gov

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Re: [Simh] RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape

2016-01-08 Thread khandy21yo 
Copyright laws werechanged to keep Mickey Mojuse protected many years back, 
anyrfing after 1820 is cmplicated. Many of the rules were changed. Oroject 
gutenberg has a lot mire information about it.

 Original message 
From Timothe Litt  
Date: 01/08/2016  1:19 PM  (GMT-07:00) 
To simh@trailing-edge.com 
Subject Re: [Simh] RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape 
 
On 08-Jan-16 14:44, Larry Baker wrote:
Paul,

That is correct.  In X3.27-1978 (version 3) and earlier, date fields are 6 
characters " YYDDD".  The first character must be a space.  In X3.27-1987 
(version 4), the first character in date fields is either a space or a 0.  " 
YYDDD" are 19YY dates, "0YYDDD" are 20YY dates.


I have paper copies of -1978 and -1987.  I don't think it's legal to put them 
up on bitsavers, though.  I think you still have to purchase copies from 
whoever publishes them now.

Larry Baker
US Geological Survey
650-329-5608
ba...@usgs.gov
My paper copy of 78 has a copyright.  It also has a restriction on 
reproduction in any form, including electronic.

My paper copy of 87 is a printout of a text file that does not.  Might have 
come from a DEC committee member, though the title page includes "Approved 
March 16, 1987".

CBEMA was the secretariat that produced these standards.

I don't know what ANSI's (or INCITS, the successor to CBEMA's) policy is on 
re-distribution of obsolete versions of its standards.  

Those interested can ask ANSI for permission to put them on bitsavers for 
historical research purposes.  One doesn't know what they'll say without 
asking... "yes" is possible.

ANSI customer service is: i...@ansi.org
INCITS: inc...@itic.org

Historical research/preservation as a reason often unlocks doors.

The 1978 version might be off copyright depending on when it was registered.  
It was approved in 1977, so it would have expired after 28 years if not 
renewed.  Would anyone have bothered?  But the rules are complicated.  See 
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ15a.pdf.

The 1987 version would be under the new copyright rules, modulo the fact that 
my copy doesn't have a copyright statement.

Have fun.


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Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 144, Issue 19

2016-01-08 Thread Kevin Handy 
Updated ansitpc with Larry's version.
VMS is much happer with the tapes created.
I haven't had a ot of time to analyze the changes so I just updated to his
version, which seems to work well with VMS.

git clone https://github.com/khandy21yo/emutools.git


On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Larry Baker  wrote:

> Kevin,
>
> On 6 Jan 2016, at 8:04 AM,  <
> simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 07:36:20 -0700
> From: Kevin Handy 
> To: "simh@trailing-edge.com" 
> Subject: [Simh] Another way to get files into simh
> Message-ID:
>