Re: [Simh] Interdata OS/32 question

[Clem Cole]

On Thursday, September 1, 2016, Davis Johnson  wrote:
>
> It'll work with just about any normal dumb terminal. Pick one that doesn't
> display rubout characters and transmits backspace for the backspace key and
> you'll be good.
>
I wish I could remember the name it but there was an emulator written in
pascal for dos that's sources were floating around.  It had the ability to
emulate the PE 'Fox' terminal (as well as some others). The Fox was fairly
popular in the pre VT-100 days as like the Lear ADM3a was cheap (under 1k)
in those days.  But that was the first PE glass tty and I'm fairly sure
they could talk to 8/32's easily / out of box without anything special.


Clem


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Re: [Simh] Interdata OS/32 question

[Davis Johnson]

OS/32 is pretty dumb when it comes to terminal handling. Basic command 
line interface, a line oriented editor.


Later versions came with "medit" and microemacs, both of which are 
screen editors and configurable for about anything.


It'll work with just about any normal dumb terminal. Pick one that 
doesn't display rubout characters and transmits backspace for the 
backspace key and you'll be good.


It can work with a VT - they were common at the time. It takes some 
tinkering to reduce the pain.


My current working system works with a vt-100 without a garbage on the 
screen. It will take some time for me to reconstruct how I got there. 
Part of the problem of sharing is that I'm running a modified simh-3.8 
that emulates a 3220, not an 8/32 and OS/32 09-02. And the OS may have 
been modified as well.


In the mean time, dropping back to the TTY driver might help, but you 
will loose command history and command line editing, lower case support 
and a few other niceties that probably won't matter when you are just 
trying to make it work.


An ASR-33 had a 72 character line length - you may want to specify a 
longer RECL if you do go back to it.


And I really do need to work my changes into current and get them back 
into the mainline release.



On 09/01/2016 03:56 PM, Gene Irwin wrote:


Probably would.
Would this affect any system apps?  I haven't seen anything in the os 
yet that seems crt oriented.


Also what about the other ports, is there a terminal type that OS/32 
supports that's easier to emulate?


Or is there a terminal emulator that does the 550 or 1100's?


On Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 12:44 PM Don Stalkowski > wrote:


Hi Davis,

Do you think that reconfiguring the console back to a tty might
work?

i.e.

Change  "CON: ,10,39,XDCOD=X2A0D,RECL=120,CONS"

back to "CON: , 2,16,CONS *CONSOLE - M33 TTY"

which is what is was in the default sysgen.

Don

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Re: [Simh] Interdata OS/32 question

[Don Stalkowski]

Hi Davis,

Do you think that reconfiguring the console back to a tty might
work?

i.e.

Change  "CON: ,10,39,XDCOD=X2A0D,RECL=120,CONS"

back to "CON: , 2,16,CONS *CONSOLE - M33 TTY"

which is what is was in the default sysgen.

Don

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Re: [Simh] Interdata OS/32 question

[khandy21yo]

It could be many things. Without seeing the text, it will be hard to help you,
On Debian, you can start 'script' before ssh to capture your session into 
'typescript',. See 'man script' for detai,s. After exiting ssh, exit bash to 
close script.
You could be dealing with a parity issue, or the 127s someone else talked about 
could be doing something weird like utf8. Parity would be my bet.

Gaa. Ignore any of the stupid autocorrect crud in  this message.
 Original message From: Gene Irwin  Date: 
9/1/16  7:51 AM  (GMT-07:00) To: Davis Johnson , 
simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] Interdata OS/32 question 
I am using bash under the arm 64 version of debian mate on a pine64.  I am 
remoting in using ssh. The remote system is bash under Linux mint.
After going through the guide to build a system from tapes there is a section 
that enables more terminals, disks and probably other things.  All is well 
until this point.  After the system and install the system gets rebooted into 
the new configuration.
It is at that time when things go sideways.
All the text printed by OS/32 now has control characters with it and it doesn't 
seem to understand input any more.  If you do a set time command and hit enter 
the cursor returns to the beginning of the line but I can't tell if the prompt 
appears again due to the control characters at the beginning of the line.
I don't know how to record a session or I would provide a log.

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 3:29 AM Davis Johnson  wrote:
Assume for the moment you are running OS/32 and MTM, not reliance or

other software on top of OS/32 that needs a specific terminal.



There are two big issues you have with using a VT-100 emulator (or a

real VT-100, for that matter) on OS/32:



OS/32 defaults to using 7F (177 for you DEC folks) characters for pads,

instead of NUL characters. A VT displays that as a half-intensity filled

character cell. The actual original VT-100 turned on 50% of the pixels

in the character cell in a checker board pattern. You can get rid of

these entirely in MTM. Eliminating them from the console is more

problematic. When I have more time I can provide more detail.



OS/32 expects a control-h (08, or 010) as a backspace. A VT sends 7F.

This one is harder to fix - you can train yourself to type control-h or

do some more involved patching.



I'll have more time this evening.



On 08/31/2016 10:19 PM, Don Stalkowski wrote:

> On Wed Aug 31 14:51:02 2016 girwin1...@gmail.com (Gene Irwin) wrote:

>> I have managed to work my way through a good deal of the os/32 setup

>> process but after the build of the new os the system seems to want a

>> Perkins Elmer 550 or 1100 terminal to operate now.  I  don't know how to

>> make the shell connect to the simh console in another mode.

>>

>> Can someone point me in the right direction to finish this?

> Hi Gene,

>

> Can you post the portion of the console dialog that asks for the

> Perkin Elmer terminals?

>

> Don

>

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Re: [Simh] Interdata OS/32 question

[Gene Irwin]

I am using bash under the arm 64 version of debian mate on a pine64.  I am
remoting in using ssh. The remote system is bash under Linux mint.

After going through the guide to build a system from tapes there is a
section that enables more terminals, disks and probably other things.  All
is well until this point.  After the system and install the system gets
rebooted into the new configuration.

It is at that time when things go sideways.

All the text printed by OS/32 now has control characters with it and it
doesn't seem to understand input any more.  If you do a set time command
and hit enter the cursor returns to the beginning of the line but I can't
tell if the prompt appears again due to the control characters at the
beginning of the line.

I don't know how to record a session or I would provide a log.

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 3:29 AM Davis Johnson  wrote:

> Assume for the moment you are running OS/32 and MTM, not reliance or
> other software on top of OS/32 that needs a specific terminal.
>
> There are two big issues you have with using a VT-100 emulator (or a
> real VT-100, for that matter) on OS/32:
>
> OS/32 defaults to using 7F (177 for you DEC folks) characters for pads,
> instead of NUL characters. A VT displays that as a half-intensity filled
> character cell. The actual original VT-100 turned on 50% of the pixels
> in the character cell in a checker board pattern. You can get rid of
> these entirely in MTM. Eliminating them from the console is more
> problematic. When I have more time I can provide more detail.
>
> OS/32 expects a control-h (08, or 010) as a backspace. A VT sends 7F.
> This one is harder to fix - you can train yourself to type control-h or
> do some more involved patching.
>
> I'll have more time this evening.
>
> On 08/31/2016 10:19 PM, Don Stalkowski wrote:
> > On Wed Aug 31 14:51:02 2016 girwin1...@gmail.com (Gene Irwin) wrote:
> >> I have managed to work my way through a good deal of the os/32 setup
> >> process but after the build of the new os the system seems to want a
> >> Perkins Elmer 550 or 1100 terminal to operate now.  I  don't know how to
> >> make the shell connect to the simh console in another mode.
> >>
> >> Can someone point me in the right direction to finish this?
> > Hi Gene,
> >
> > Can you post the portion of the console dialog that asks for the
> > Perkin Elmer terminals?
> >
> > Don
> >
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> >
> >
>
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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: Ultrix 4.0 and DEQNA-LOCK

[Johnny Billquist]

Maybe to vlarify myself. DEQNA-LOCK is not something I would expect 
Ultrix to turn on, and the code Ragge posted certainly reported it 
without appearing to modify it. And it would not make sense to modify it 
before that point, and if it was changed after that point, dmesg should 
not report it.


Johnny

On 2016-09-01 14:32, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2016-09-01 14:20, Hittner, David T (IS) wrote:

FWIW, A dated comment from someone at Digital indicating that Ultrix
4.3 treats DELQA and DELQA-Plus as DEQNA, and it is unlikely to ever
change.
http://www.verycomputer.com/7_50c10d446aeab2b0_1.htm

I also see other posts showing Ultrix 4.5 also running in DEQNA-LOCK
mode. Maybe Ultrix was never upgraded to use the DELQA and DELQA-Plus
enhancements.


Well, as others pointed out, the normal operation/programming of the
DEQNA and DELQA are the same.

The DELQA-PLUS is a different story. But that's not what we're dealing
with here.

So, it really works pretty much the same no matter if it is a DEQNA or
DELQA. The differences have more to do with some built-in MOP handling
in the DELQA, along with the ability to perform network booting, which
the DEQNA cannot. Also some watchdog functionality.

So yes, I would indeed expect that Ultrix would treat the DEQNA and
DELQA the same. And if it don't have a driver for the DELQA-PLUS, it can
run that one in normal DELQA mode as well. The DELQA-PLUS mode is
better/more efficient, but that is the only one with a different
programming model.

Johnny



Dave

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Cory
Smelosky
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 10:37 PM
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: EXT :Re: [Simh] Ultrix 4.0 and DEQNA-LOCK

On Wed, 31 Aug 2016, Johnny Billquist wrote:


Hi.

On 2016-08-31 17:40, Cory Smelosky wrote:


Cory, could you post the output from showing the device in simh?
I wonder if there might be some confusion about how to turn off lock
mode. I've never even tried modifying that. By default, I would
assume it would be correctly configured, meaning it should work
right if you don't try to "fix it".


I am doing SET DEQNALOCK to OFF, and SHOW XQ (in my initial posting
shows that IIRC) with it in DELQA mode, and later on after probing
and initialising it, despite DEQNALOCK set to OFF and showing as OFF,
SHOW XQ shows it has reverted to being in DEQNA mode.


No. You initial posting showed the dmesg output, but not the simh
input or output, unless I'm very confused.

Johnny



set xq en
set xq deqnalock=off
set xq type=delqa
at xq vde:/tmp/vde

(BOOT/R5:0 DUA0
Simulation stopped, PC: 2004CBD9 (CMPW (R5)+,28(SP))
sim> show xq
XQ  address=20001920-2000192F, no vector, MAC=08:00:2B:6D:9C:95
 type=DELQA, polling=disabled, sanity=OFF
 throttle=disabled, DEQNALock=OFF, leds=(ON,ON,ON)
 attached to vde:/tmp/vde

sim> c
[...]
qe0: DEC DELQA Ethernet Interface DEQNA-lock Mode, hardware address
08:00:2b:6d:9c:95
dz0 at uba0 csr 160100 vec 300, ipl 17
dz1 at uba0 csr 160110 vec 310, ipl 17
dz2 at uba0 csr 160120 vec 320, ipl 17
dz3 at uba0 csr 160130 vec 330, ipl 17

Simulation stopped, PC: 80003551 (BEQL 800034F0)
sim> show xq
XQ  address=20001920-2000192F, vector=3F4*, MAC=08:00:2B:6D:9C:95
 type=DELQA, mode=DEQNA, polling=disabled, sanity=OFF
 throttle=disabled, DEQNALock=OFF, leds=(ON,ON,ON)
 attached to vde:/tmp/vde

--
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http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: Ultrix 4.0 and DEQNA-LOCK

[Hittner, David T (IS)]

FWIW, A dated comment from someone at Digital indicating that Ultrix 4.3 treats 
DELQA and DELQA-Plus as DEQNA, and it is unlikely to ever change.
http://www.verycomputer.com/7_50c10d446aeab2b0_1.htm

I also see other posts showing Ultrix 4.5 also running in DEQNA-LOCK mode. 
Maybe Ultrix was never upgraded to use the DELQA and DELQA-Plus enhancements.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 10:37 PM
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: EXT :Re: [Simh] Ultrix 4.0 and DEQNA-LOCK

On Wed, 31 Aug 2016, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> Hi.
>
> On 2016-08-31 17:40, Cory Smelosky wrote:
>
>>> Cory, could you post the output from showing the device in simh?
>>> I wonder if there might be some confusion about how to turn off lock 
>>> mode. I've never even tried modifying that. By default, I would 
>>> assume it would be correctly configured, meaning it should work 
>>> right if you don't try to "fix it".
>> 
>> I am doing SET DEQNALOCK to OFF, and SHOW XQ (in my initial posting 
>> shows that IIRC) with it in DELQA mode, and later on after probing 
>> and initialising it, despite DEQNALOCK set to OFF and showing as OFF, 
>> SHOW XQ shows it has reverted to being in DEQNA mode.
>
> No. You initial posting showed the dmesg output, but not the simh 
> input or output, unless I'm very confused.
>
>   Johnny
>

set xq en
set xq deqnalock=off
set xq type=delqa
at xq vde:/tmp/vde

(BOOT/R5:0 DUA0
Simulation stopped, PC: 2004CBD9 (CMPW (R5)+,28(SP))
sim> show xq
XQ  address=20001920-2000192F, no vector, MAC=08:00:2B:6D:9C:95
 type=DELQA, polling=disabled, sanity=OFF
 throttle=disabled, DEQNALock=OFF, leds=(ON,ON,ON)
 attached to vde:/tmp/vde

sim> c
[...]
qe0: DEC DELQA Ethernet Interface DEQNA-lock Mode, hardware address
08:00:2b:6d:9c:95
dz0 at uba0 csr 160100 vec 300, ipl 17
dz1 at uba0 csr 160110 vec 310, ipl 17
dz2 at uba0 csr 160120 vec 320, ipl 17
dz3 at uba0 csr 160130 vec 330, ipl 17

Simulation stopped, PC: 80003551 (BEQL 800034F0)
sim> show xq
XQ  address=20001920-2000192F, vector=3F4*, MAC=08:00:2B:6D:9C:95
 type=DELQA, mode=DEQNA, polling=disabled, sanity=OFF
 throttle=disabled, DEQNALock=OFF, leds=(ON,ON,ON)
 attached to vde:/tmp/vde

--
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http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
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Re: [Simh] Interdata OS/32 question

[Davis Johnson]

Assume for the moment you are running OS/32 and MTM, not reliance or 
other software on top of OS/32 that needs a specific terminal.


There are two big issues you have with using a VT-100 emulator (or a 
real VT-100, for that matter) on OS/32:


OS/32 defaults to using 7F (177 for you DEC folks) characters for pads, 
instead of NUL characters. A VT displays that as a half-intensity filled 
character cell. The actual original VT-100 turned on 50% of the pixels 
in the character cell in a checker board pattern. You can get rid of 
these entirely in MTM. Eliminating them from the console is more 
problematic. When I have more time I can provide more detail.


OS/32 expects a control-h (08, or 010) as a backspace. A VT sends 7F. 
This one is harder to fix - you can train yourself to type control-h or 
do some more involved patching.


I'll have more time this evening.

On 08/31/2016 10:19 PM, Don Stalkowski wrote:

On Wed Aug 31 14:51:02 2016 girwin1...@gmail.com (Gene Irwin) wrote:

I have managed to work my way through a good deal of the os/32 setup
process but after the build of the new os the system seems to want a
Perkins Elmer 550 or 1100 terminal to operate now.  I  don't know how to
make the shell connect to the simh console in another mode.

Can someone point me in the right direction to finish this?

Hi Gene,

Can you post the portion of the console dialog that asks for the
Perkin Elmer terminals?

Don

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