Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Arthur Krewat]

Does anyone have a link to (or a copy of) the original Hobbyist license 
agreement, I'd really like to read it.


It has  been my understanding for a LONG time, that license PAKs are not 
a guarantee that you've actually licensed anything.


While the Hobbyist License PAKs are expiring, does your actual 
right-to-use expire with the PAKs according to the license? Does it 
specifically say that when the PAKs expire, you lose your right to use 
the software?


I see a few different cross-purposes in this thread.

1) You have a Hobby license but run it for commercial purposes (hence, 
illegal).
2) You have a commercial license. The PAKs you have should never expire. 
I have a crap-load of them from when I saved them from the garbage at a 
consulting customer of mine. They are NOT legal for me to use 
commercially. Likewise, just because you bought a license PAK off of 
eBay, doesn't mean you have the "right" to use that software.
3) You have a hobbyist license, but they are not renewing PAKs for you. 
The license itself, depending on it's terms, might offer you relief in 
some way.


art k.

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Dan Gahlinger]

What's the legality of doing something like modifying simh so it bypasses the 
license check?

isn't vms of x86 redundant?
I mean essentially it's just simh kinda. thatd be the quick way to do it.

I'm going to post a new thread semi related because I really want the groups 
consensus on a question about vms future

Dan

Try: https://www.grammarly.com


From: Simh  on behalf of Mark Pizzolato 

Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 3:37:04 PM
To: Kevin Handy ; Hunter Goatley 
Cc: Simh 
Subject: Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program


VSI hasn’t said anything about this.  Only HPE has.  All we know now that that 
HPE is getting out of the Hobbyist business.



Your point is exactly why I had asked if VSI views the Hobbyist user community 
a plus or minus.  Only VSI can answer that, and we’ve got some 22 months for 
any answers to be had and any details to be worked out.  We are definitely not 
circling the drain yet.



Let’s wait a bit until all the relevant players  have had a chance to speak.



From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Handy
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 12:28 PM
To: Hunter Goatley 
Cc: Simh 
Subject: Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program



With VMS only available for obsolete hardware, the  main people keeping the 
knowledge alive is the hobbyests. With the loss of the hobbyist program, 
there's going to be a lot of hard feelings left behind. IWon't that cause VSI 
problems when the finally get an X86 version going? The VMS supporters are 
going to feel like they've been burned too many times Why would someone choose 
VMS, who keep dropping out, over Linux or Windows, which seems to be taking 
over in the area's VMS used to hold.

It just seems to be a bad deal for VSI's future.



On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Hunter Goatley 
mailto:goathun...@goatley.com>> wrote:

On 3/8/2020 8:57 AM, Craig Berry wrote:
> HPE does not need to be selling or supporting the software in order to 
> collect royalties from those who do, and I suspect the commercial emulator 
> vendors have the ability to issue PAKs for new and transferred VAX licenses, 
> and make money for themselves and for HPE when they do so.

Good point. I had assumed HPE was the only entity doing that, but that
may not be the case.

Hunter


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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Mark Pizzolato]

VSI hasn’t said anything about this.  Only HPE has.  All we know now that that 
HPE is getting out of the Hobbyist business.

Your point is exactly why I had asked if VSI views the Hobbyist user community 
a plus or minus.  Only VSI can answer that, and we’ve got some 22 months for 
any answers to be had and any details to be worked out.  We are definitely not 
circling the drain yet.

Let’s wait a bit until all the relevant players  have had a chance to speak.

From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Handy
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 12:28 PM
To: Hunter Goatley 
Cc: Simh 
Subject: Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

With VMS only available for obsolete hardware, the  main people keeping the 
knowledge alive is the hobbyests. With the loss of the hobbyist program, 
there's going to be a lot of hard feelings left behind. IWon't that cause VSI 
problems when the finally get an X86 version going? The VMS supporters are 
going to feel like they've been burned too many times Why would someone choose 
VMS, who keep dropping out, over Linux or Windows, which seems to be taking 
over in the area's VMS used to hold.
It just seems to be a bad deal for VSI's future.

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Hunter Goatley 
mailto:goathun...@goatley.com>> wrote:
On 3/8/2020 8:57 AM, Craig Berry wrote:
> HPE does not need to be selling or supporting the software in order to 
> collect royalties from those who do, and I suspect the commercial emulator 
> vendors have the ability to issue PAKs for new and transferred VAX licenses, 
> and make money for themselves and for HPE when they do so.

Good point. I had assumed HPE was the only entity doing that, but that
may not be the case.

Hunter


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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Kevin Handy]

With VMS only available for obsolete hardware, the  main people keeping the
knowledge alive is the hobbyests. With the loss of the hobbyist program,
there's going to be a lot of hard feelings left behind. IWon't that cause
VSI problems when the finally get an X86 version going? The VMS supporters
are going to feel like they've been burned too many times Why would someone
choose VMS, who keep dropping out, over Linux or Windows, which seems to be
taking over in the area's VMS used to hold.
It just seems to be a bad deal for VSI's future.

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Hunter Goatley 
wrote:

> On 3/8/2020 8:57 AM, Craig Berry wrote:
> > HPE does not need to be selling or supporting the software in order to
> collect royalties from those who do, and I suspect the commercial emulator
> vendors have the ability to issue PAKs for new and transferred VAX
> licenses, and make money for themselves and for HPE when they do so.
>
> Good point. I had assumed HPE was the only entity doing that, but that
> may not be the case.
>
> Hunter
>
>
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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Hunter Goatley]

On 3/8/2020 8:57 AM, Craig Berry wrote:

HPE does not need to be selling or supporting the software in order to collect 
royalties from those who do, and I suspect the commercial emulator vendors have 
the ability to issue PAKs for new and transferred VAX licenses, and make money 
for themselves and for HPE when they do so.


Good point. I had assumed HPE was the only entity doing that, but that 
may not be the case.


Hunter


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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2020-03-08 13:33, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
You're probably "safe" to do so if you're in a country that is not part 
of The Berne Convention, YMMV.


Probably not. The Berne convention makes copyright automatic on work. A 
country that have not signed the Berne convention does not make 
copyright non-existent in that country. It only means that whoever 
wanted to have a recognized copyright needed to maybe explicitly 
register for it. However, I would bet that if that was needed, DEC did 
that paperwork already a long time ago. So it's protected pretty much 
everywhere.


The US had not signed the Berne convention when VMS was introduced...


But again this exposes an age-old issue regarding "abandonware".


Indeed. Except in this case it's even less of "abandoned". VMS is still 
in active development. It's just that they stopped supporting a specific 
hardware platform. So they abandoned some hardware.



Will the Vax VMS copyright therefore expire in 2046?
eg 25 years after the license expires.


Very unlikely. Copyright is usually until 70 years (currently) after the 
authors death. However, when copyrights are held by corporations, it can 
be difficult to talk about the authors death. But for sure it will not 
be before 70 years of initial publication. Which for VMS would then be 
in 2047.

The expiration of the license definitely have no bearing here.

The US extended the period when it got close to the time when Disney 
copyrights would expire, so chances are it will get extended again 
soon... :-)


We need a hobbyist member with massive pockets to step up and protect it 
for all of us...


Please. :-)

  Johnny

--
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  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Dan Gahlinger]

You're probably "safe" to do so if you're in a country that is not part of The 
Berne Convention, YMMV.

But again this exposes an age-old issue regarding "abandonware".

Will the Vax VMS copyright therefore expire in 2046?
eg 25 years after the license expires.

We need a hobbyist member with massive pockets to step up and protect it for 
all of us...

Dan

From: Simh  on behalf of Johnny Billquist 

Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 7:56:16 AM
To: Bob Eager ; simh@trailing-edge.com 
Subject: Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

On 2020-03-08 12:42, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Mar 2020 12:34:46 +0100
> Johnny Billquist  wrote:
>
>>> is HPE going to sue individual hobbyists for copyright? I highly
>>> doubt it.
>>
>> Why would they? HPE have given hobbyists licenses which will expire,
>> at which point they just don't have a working license anymore. Not
>> sure what HPE would sue for...
>
> I think the context was, at some point in the future, a hobbyist using
> a pirate licence.

Ah. So the question is if HPE would ever sue anyone for using pirate
licenses. Good question. Technically, they could, of course. Will they
try and hunt people down? I sortof suspect they will not.
But HPE are not the only ones with a stake here. What about VSI? After
all, if HPE have stopped selling, they wouldn't gain any more money by
anyone willing to pay anyway.

Anyway, this all becomes speculation. We know it is illegal. Anyone is
free to decide on their own if they are willing to break that rule/law,
and willing to take that risk (be it high or low). Nobody should make
that decision based on the assumption of someone else that it is "safe"
though.

   Johnny

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2020-03-08 12:42, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sun, 8 Mar 2020 12:34:46 +0100
Johnny Billquist  wrote:


is HPE going to sue individual hobbyists for copyright? I highly
doubt it.


Why would they? HPE have given hobbyists licenses which will expire,
at which point they just don't have a working license anymore. Not
sure what HPE would sue for...


I think the context was, at some point in the future, a hobbyist using
a pirate licence.


Ah. So the question is if HPE would ever sue anyone for using pirate 
licenses. Good question. Technically, they could, of course. Will they 
try and hunt people down? I sortof suspect they will not.
But HPE are not the only ones with a stake here. What about VSI? After 
all, if HPE have stopped selling, they wouldn't gain any more money by 
anyone willing to pay anyway.


Anyway, this all becomes speculation. We know it is illegal. Anyone is 
free to decide on their own if they are willing to break that rule/law, 
and willing to take that risk (be it high or low). Nobody should make 
that decision based on the assumption of someone else that it is "safe" 
though.


  Johnny

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Bob Eager]

On Sun, 8 Mar 2020 12:34:46 +0100
Johnny Billquist  wrote:

> > is HPE going to sue individual hobbyists for copyright? I highly
> > doubt it.  
> 
> Why would they? HPE have given hobbyists licenses which will expire,
> at which point they just don't have a working license anymore. Not
> sure what HPE would sue for...

I think the context was, at some point in the future, a hobbyist using
a pirate licence.
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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Johnny Billquist]

Hmm. You seem to be a bit confused... Let me try and straighten things 
out...


On 2020-03-08 05:21, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
is it still technically pirating if it's impossible to legally buy it 
because it's a dead product?


Yes. It is still owned by someone. That doesn't end just because they 
won't sell it to you.


I bought some vax with vms and got documentation with them including 
licenses of vms v4.x and such,
at least one system I'm fairly sure didn't have an expiry date that I 
could find.

of course the license paper says it cost about $90k USD.
from Ebay to me for $600


There is a question if that license actually is valid for you. It does 
not have your name on it. But that is a separate questions for lawyers.


copyright laws also differ from country to country, some places have 
exceptions for personal use or archival purposes.


Possibly. That is something for lawyers in those countries to sort out.

there are people out there with the pakgen ability, but I'm sure they'd 
like to remain anonymous.

and that becomes problematic for commercial use.


Already is. They can potentially generate license also for products that 
continues to be sold.


HPE is basically going to put you out of business if you rely on vms for 
anything.


No they are not. If you have a normal license, it will not expire just 
because HPE stops selling VMS. That license will continue to work just 
fine. Most normal, commerical licenses do not have an expiration date.
If you are relying on VMS for anything, and are using the hobbyist 
license, then you are essentially violating the conditions of the 
hobbyist license to start with, and you have no case to complain.



is HPE going to sue individual hobbyists for copyright? I highly doubt it.


Why would they? HPE have given hobbyists licenses which will expire, at 
which point they just don't have a working license anymore. Not sure 
what HPE would sue for...


I doubt commercial too unless it's high profile or a lot of business, 
even then my argument would be - ok which license do I buy, my business 
depends on this.


A commercial user is not going to be shut down by this announcement. At 
most, they will not have support anymore. But then again, if they want 
that, they can buy it from VSI instead. Similar conditions, probably 
similar prices. Business continues as before.



while on the topic  what about Charon? what about those licenses?


Charon have never been owned by HPE, so obviously that product is 
unaffected. As for VMS running on those machines, it's the same story as 
all other licenses. HPE will not be selling any new licenses, and will 
not provide support anymore.
The licenses are still valid, and the systems will continue running, 
unless you only have some time limited license. Which commercial users 
usually do not have.


I'll use the permanent license I legally purchased, if HPE wants to give 
me flack for personal, hobbyist use, try me...


If you have a permanent license, then it is going to be valid 
permanently. The current announcement from HPE do not invalidate it. Why 
do you even think that is the case???


But I do know from another world, that when I got a DEC machine, I also 
had to contact DEC to *transfer* the license to me. The fact that the 
seller had a license did not mean he could just hand the paper over and 
then I had a license.


  Johnny

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Zane Healy]

On Mar 7, 2020, at 8:09 PM, Tony Nicholson  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:39 AM Hunter Goatley  > wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> I had hoped that HPE would release non-expiring VAX PAKs, because why 
> not? They're out of the game, and no one else has the code for VAX. But 
> they apparently aren't going to do that, which effectively ends SIMH, 
> VAX, and Alpha for all but commercial use with purchased commercial 
> licenses.
> 
> Layered product license PAKs for Alpha and VAX are common for products 
> available
> for the hobbyist program.  That may be the reason why they couldn't issue
> non-expiring licenses for VAX - because they'd be non-expiring for Alpha too!

I was thinking the same thing, and it seems obvious that VSI is making money 
off of Alpha. 

> A VAX-VMS license PAK without layered products would be useless (to me).

IIRC, this was all we got with the original Hobbyist program.

Zane




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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Michael Kerpan]

Layered product PAKs may be common, but as far as HPE and VSI
are concerned, they're no more legitimate than a key made by some third
party keygen. Given that both piles of old PAKs and said third party keygen
both exist, getting things to physically run is not the problem, it's being
able to do without breaking the rules that's the sticking point.

Mike

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020, 11:10 PM Tony Nicholson 
wrote:

>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:39 AM Hunter Goatley 
> wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>>
>> I had hoped that HPE would release non-expiring VAX PAKs, because why
>> not? They're out of the game, and no one else has the code for VAX. But
>> they apparently aren't going to do that, which effectively ends SIMH,
>> VAX, and Alpha for all but commercial use with purchased commercial
>> licenses.
>>
>
> Layered product license PAKs for Alpha and VAX are common for products
> available
> for the hobbyist program.  That may be the reason why they couldn't issue
> non-expiring licenses for VAX - because they'd be non-expiring for Alpha
> too!
>
> A VAX-VMS license PAK without layered products would be useless (to me).
>
> Tony
>
> --
> Tony Nicholson 
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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Dan Gahlinger]

is it still technically pirating if it's impossible to legally buy it because 
it's a dead product?

I bought some vax with vms and got documentation with them including licenses 
of vms v4.x and such,
at least one system I'm fairly sure didn't have an expiry date that I could 
find.
of course the license paper says it cost about $90k USD.
from Ebay to me for $600

copyright laws also differ from country to country, some places have exceptions 
for personal use or archival purposes.

there are people out there with the pakgen ability, but I'm sure they'd like to 
remain anonymous.
and that becomes problematic for commercial use.

HPE is basically going to put you out of business if you rely on vms for 
anything.

is HPE going to sue individual hobbyists for copyright? I highly doubt it.

I doubt commercial too unless it's high profile or a lot of business, even then 
my argument would be - ok which license do I buy, my business depends on this.

while on the topic  what about Charon? what about those licenses?

I'll use the permanent license I legally purchased, if HPE wants to give me 
flack for personal, hobbyist use, try me...

Dan


From: Simh  on behalf of Craig Berry 

Sent: Saturday, March 7, 2020, 10:58 p.m.
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program



> On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Bob Eager  wrote:
>
> A comment from Usenet, from VSI:

No, it was not from VSI.  It was from someone who had renewed HPE hobbyist 
licenses and got that reply from HPE.

> "The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the
> last set. Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
> licenses. Attached is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
> licenses. These final licenses are valid through December 31st, 2021.
> We hope that this additional validity period will enable users to plan
> for the future.
>
> Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to
> purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact for the
> same."

That is what HPE says and is consistent with their long-standing plans to EOL 
VMS.  It has nothing to do with VSI.

> On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:37:30 -0600
> Gary Lee Phillips  wrote:
>
>> Yes, quite important seems to be an understatement. HPE is dropping
>> the program, apparently because the OpenVMS product line is now the
>> responsibility of VSI. But I can find no sign that VSI will continue
>> the hobbyist license program in any form. Those of us with actual
>> Alpha/Itanium/Vax hardware may be completely shut out?
>>
>> I own two Alphas and also run Vax on Simh. This is not amusing. VSI
>> appears to be focused on OpenVMS for x86 processors,

Then why have they issued so many releases and patch kits for current OpenVMS 
on Alpha and Itanium?  Yes, they are also working on a port to x86_64, and that 
is taking longer and appears to be consuming more resources than they expected. 
 If anyone claims that has anything to do with their failure to release 
hobbyist licenses, it's possible, but I would like to see evidence.

>> which is fine if
>> they can do that. But without a way to renew license keys our Alpha
>> and Vax systems will be dead silicon. I don't require support or even
>> patches. I just need to keep my systems running.

Anyone who is the least bit surprised by any of this has simply not been paying 
attention for some years.  HPE is exiting the OpenVMS business and has been 
saying they would for some time.  Did you expect they would continue the 
hobbyist program when they no longer sell the product?  VSI cannot legally 
issue licenses for HPE releases, including all VAX releases.  The only thing 
new today is that the end date for new hobbyist licenses is the end of 2021 
whereas a reasonable guess a year ago might have been the end of 2020.

Why VSI has not started a hobbyist program is a different question.  They 
initially said they would have one with essentially the same terms as the HPE 
one, but have not delivered that in the last five-plus years, and more recently 
have said they have no current plans for a hobbyist program, but nor do they 
rule out having one in the future.  They do have an educational program where 
you get a free Alpha emulator and short-term licenses; I'm told it compares 
poorly to the the traditional hobbyist license.

All of this is very disappointing of course, especially for folks with VAX 
nostalgia, but it's not news.

Craig A. Berry

"... getting out of a sonnet is much more
 difficult than getting in."
 Brad Leithauser

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Craig Berry]

> On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Bob Eager  wrote:
> 
> A comment from Usenet, from VSI:

No, it was not from VSI.  It was from someone who had renewed HPE hobbyist 
licenses and got that reply from HPE.

> "The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the
> last set. Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
> licenses. Attached is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
> licenses. These final licenses are valid through December 31st, 2021.
> We hope that this additional validity period will enable users to plan
> for the future.
> 
> Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to
> purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact for the
> same."

That is what HPE says and is consistent with their long-standing plans to EOL 
VMS.  It has nothing to do with VSI.

> On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:37:30 -0600
> Gary Lee Phillips  wrote:
> 
>> Yes, quite important seems to be an understatement. HPE is dropping
>> the program, apparently because the OpenVMS product line is now the
>> responsibility of VSI. But I can find no sign that VSI will continue
>> the hobbyist license program in any form. Those of us with actual
>> Alpha/Itanium/Vax hardware may be completely shut out?
>> 
>> I own two Alphas and also run Vax on Simh. This is not amusing. VSI
>> appears to be focused on OpenVMS for x86 processors,

Then why have they issued so many releases and patch kits for current OpenVMS 
on Alpha and Itanium?  Yes, they are also working on a port to x86_64, and that 
is taking longer and appears to be consuming more resources than they expected. 
 If anyone claims that has anything to do with their failure to release 
hobbyist licenses, it's possible, but I would like to see evidence.

>> which is fine if
>> they can do that. But without a way to renew license keys our Alpha
>> and Vax systems will be dead silicon. I don't require support or even
>> patches. I just need to keep my systems running.

Anyone who is the least bit surprised by any of this has simply not been paying 
attention for some years.  HPE is exiting the OpenVMS business and has been 
saying they would for some time.  Did you expect they would continue the 
hobbyist program when they no longer sell the product?  VSI cannot legally 
issue licenses for HPE releases, including all VAX releases.  The only thing 
new today is that the end date for new hobbyist licenses is the end of 2021 
whereas a reasonable guess a year ago might have been the end of 2020.

Why VSI has not started a hobbyist program is a different question.  They 
initially said they would have one with essentially the same terms as the HPE 
one, but have not delivered that in the last five-plus years, and more recently 
have said they have no current plans for a hobbyist program, but nor do they 
rule out having one in the future.  They do have an educational program where 
you get a free Alpha emulator and short-term licenses; I'm told it compares 
poorly to the the traditional hobbyist license.

All of this is very disappointing of course, especially for folks with VAX 
nostalgia, but it's not news.

Craig A. Berry

"... getting out of a sonnet is much more
 difficult than getting in."
 Brad Leithauser

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Tony Nicholson]

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:39 AM Hunter Goatley 
wrote:

> [snip]
>
> I had hoped that HPE would release non-expiring VAX PAKs, because why
> not? They're out of the game, and no one else has the code for VAX. But
> they apparently aren't going to do that, which effectively ends SIMH,
> VAX, and Alpha for all but commercial use with purchased commercial
> licenses.
>

Layered product license PAKs for Alpha and VAX are common for products
available
for the hobbyist program.  That may be the reason why they couldn't issue
non-expiring licenses for VAX - because they'd be non-expiring for Alpha
too!

A VAX-VMS license PAK without layered products would be useless (to me).

Tony

-- 
Tony Nicholson 
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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Bob Eager]

On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:39:54 -0500
Michael Kerpan  wrote:

> If running without a valid license is considered an option, then
> there are ways to keep running VMS 7.3. Both a PAK generator and a
> set of pre-generated perpetual PAKs are floating around in dark
> corners of the internet. For strictly private use, odds are that HPE
> and VSI will pay just about as much attention to people running
> pirate VMS on an emulated VAX as Microsoft pays to people running
> pirate Windows 3.1 in a PC emulator: none at all.
> 
> That said, it's sad that those of us who are both interested in
> computer history and not made of money are yet again being told
> "either give up your hobby or become a pirate."

Indeed. I see no alternative for me.
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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Michael Kerpan]

If running without a valid license is considered an option, then there are
ways to keep running VMS 7.3. Both a PAK generator and a set of
pre-generated perpetual PAKs are floating around in dark corners of the
internet. For strictly private use, odds are that HPE and VSI will pay just
about as much attention to people running pirate VMS on an emulated VAX as
Microsoft pays to people running pirate Windows 3.1 in a PC emulator: none
at all.

That said, it's sad that those of us who are both interested in computer
history and not made of money are yet again being told "either give up your
hobby or become a pirate."

Mike

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020, 7:58 PM Robert Armstrong  wrote:

>   VMS 4.x is an option for older VAXes, as it predates LMF.  Of course the
> legality of doing that may still be an issue, but there's no technical
> challenge to running it.
>
>   VMS 4.7 supported the MicroVAX-III, but I don't remember for sure if
> it'll work on the 3900 simulated by simh.  Somebody would have to dig up an
> SPD, but in any event it probably wouldn't be a big problem to simulate a
> slightly different model.
>
>   Alphas, OTOH, are a problem.  I don't believe there was ever any non-LMF
> operating system that ran on them   Well, maybe Windows-NT on the
> Multia UDB?  Nah ... :)
>
> Bob
>
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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Robert Armstrong]

  VMS 4.x is an option for older VAXes, as it predates LMF.  Of course the 
legality of doing that may still be an issue, but there's no technical 
challenge to running it.

  VMS 4.7 supported the MicroVAX-III, but I don't remember for sure if it'll 
work on the 3900 simulated by simh.  Somebody would have to dig up an SPD, but 
in any event it probably wouldn't be a big problem to simulate a slightly 
different model.

  Alphas, OTOH, are a problem.  I don't believe there was ever any non-LMF 
operating system that ran on them   Well, maybe Windows-NT on the Multia 
UDB?  Nah ... :)

Bob

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Dan Gahlinger]

Anyone know what it would cost to buy the Vax licensing program from HPE/VSI
Just to continue hobbyist licenses, or do a one-time non-expiring license 
release for hobbyists?
I would guess it would be quite a huge amount, even though it's a defunct 
technology...

Dan.


From: Simh  on behalf of Hunter Goatley 

Sent: March 7, 2020 7:38 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com 
Cc: Gary Lee Phillips 
Subject: Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

On 3/7/2020 5:37 PM, Gary Lee Phillips wrote:
> Yes, quite important seems to be an understatement. HPE is dropping
> the program, apparently because the OpenVMS product line is now the
> responsibility of VSI. But I can find no sign that VSI will continue
> the hobbyist license program in any form. Those of us with actual
> Alpha/Itanium/Vax hardware may be completely shut out?

That's the way it's looking. SIMH VAXen, too.

As far as I know, even if VSI starts a Hobbyist program, it will not
include VAX, as they have never had anything to do with the VAX version
of VMS. Presumably, they have no legal right to create VAX PAKs, even if
they had the software to do it (which they do, since the Alpha PAKGEN
can create VAX PAKs).

> I own two Alphas and also run Vax on Simh. This is not amusing. VSI
> appears to be focused on OpenVMS for x86 processors, which is fine if
> they can do that. But without a way to renew license keys our Alpha
> and Vax systems will be dead silicon. I don't require support or even
> patches. I just need to keep my systems running.

I had hoped that HPE would release non-expiring VAX PAKs, because why
not? They're out of the game, and no one else has the code for VAX. But
they apparently aren't going to do that, which effectively ends SIMH,
VAX, and Alpha for all but commercial use with purchased commercial
licenses.

Hunter


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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Hunter Goatley]

On 3/7/2020 5:37 PM, Gary Lee Phillips wrote:
Yes, quite important seems to be an understatement. HPE is dropping 
the program, apparently because the OpenVMS product line is now the 
responsibility of VSI. But I can find no sign that VSI will continue 
the hobbyist license program in any form. Those of us with actual 
Alpha/Itanium/Vax hardware may be completely shut out?


That's the way it's looking. SIMH VAXen, too.

As far as I know, even if VSI starts a Hobbyist program, it will not 
include VAX, as they have never had anything to do with the VAX version 
of VMS. Presumably, they have no legal right to create VAX PAKs, even if 
they had the software to do it (which they do, since the Alpha PAKGEN 
can create VAX PAKs).


I own two Alphas and also run Vax on Simh. This is not amusing. VSI 
appears to be focused on OpenVMS for x86 processors, which is fine if 
they can do that. But without a way to renew license keys our Alpha 
and Vax systems will be dead silicon. I don't require support or even 
patches. I just need to keep my systems running.


I had hoped that HPE would release non-expiring VAX PAKs, because why 
not? They're out of the game, and no one else has the code for VAX. But 
they apparently aren't going to do that, which effectively ends SIMH, 
VAX, and Alpha for all but commercial use with purchased commercial 
licenses.


Hunter


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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Bob Eager]

A comment from Usenet, from VSI:

"The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the
last set. Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
licenses. Attached is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
licenses. These final licenses are valid through December 31st, 2021.
We hope that this additional validity period will enable users to plan
for the future.

Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to
purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact for the
same."

On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:37:30 -0600
Gary Lee Phillips  wrote:

> Yes, quite important seems to be an understatement. HPE is dropping
> the program, apparently because the OpenVMS product line is now the
> responsibility of VSI. But I can find no sign that VSI will continue
> the hobbyist license program in any form. Those of us with actual
> Alpha/Itanium/Vax hardware may be completely shut out?
> 
> I own two Alphas and also run Vax on Simh. This is not amusing. VSI
> appears to be focused on OpenVMS for x86 processors, which is fine if
> they can do that. But without a way to renew license keys our Alpha
> and Vax systems will be dead silicon. I don't require support or even
> patches. I just need to keep my systems running.

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Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Gary Lee Phillips]

Yes, quite important seems to be an understatement. HPE is dropping the
program, apparently because the OpenVMS product line is now the
responsibility of VSI. But I can find no sign that VSI will continue the
hobbyist license program in any form. Those of us with actual
Alpha/Itanium/Vax hardware may be completely shut out?

I own two Alphas and also run Vax on Simh. This is not amusing. VSI appears
to be focused on OpenVMS for x86 processors, which is fine if they can do
that. But without a way to renew license keys our Alpha and Vax systems
will be dead silicon. I don't require support or even patches. I just need
to keep my systems running.
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[Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program

[Bob Eager]

Apologies if I missed this on the list, but it's quite important.

--

Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,

This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap. If
you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the
earliest through the usual license renewal webpage.

Thank you.

HPE OpenVMS team





Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,
 
This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap.

If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the earliest through the usual license renewal webpage.
 
Thank you.
 
HPE OpenVMS team
 



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