[SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
Hi all I have a virtual server under my control which runs a perl web application and now a Java Tomcat app which uses mail a fair bit. I'm loking for something which will tell me how much memory the perl app is taking versus the Tomcat app over a period of say 1 hour or so. Googling for 'memory profiler web applications' and things brings up things that you use to find memory leaks in apps which I dont want. Naturally top just gives me instantaneous values which don't mean much when a web app is only getting a few hits a minute or even less. Thats why I want to get an average over a few hours or so. Also I don't have Gnome or any gui thing on this server so it has to be command line or a perl or bash or other program that can be run from command line. Output to file would be perfect. Does anyone have suggestions? What do people here use for getting stats on programs like this? Mike -- Mike Lake Caver, Linux enthusiast and interested in anything technical. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Checking my understanding of using DynDNS.org services.
Hi all On Mon 12 Feb 2007, Alex Samad wrote: I have had bigpond for about 4 years, I use their smtp server as an outbound, to stop my mail being blocked because it came from a dial up (I'm on cable). I haven't had a problem. I have my own domain setup. Haven't had a problem with tpg or exetel either. I think most isp allow relaying through there smtp (outbound from your laptop to the internet) from all of their ip addresses I had been told that Bigpond would block smtp and searching on Google for smtp and Bigpond shows many frustrated users who have been blocked but I had better have a try and see what gives. I have reconfigured exim4 and guessed a few things as I don't know much about mail but Bigpond's website gives its mail site name as mail.bigpond.com so I set exim to use it and I think it has worked. This email is sent from mutt while at home using Bigpond. This email should appear to come from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike -- Mike Lake Caver, Linux enthusiast and interested in anything technical. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
On 13/02/07, Mike Lake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Googling for 'memory profiler web applications' and things brings up things that you use to find memory leaks in apps which I dont want. Naturally top just gives me instantaneous values which don't mean much when a web app is only getting a few hits a minute or even less. Thats why I want to get an average over a few hours or so. Also I don't have Gnome or any gui thing on this server so it has to be command line or a perl or bash or other program that can be run from command line. Output to file would be perfect. Does anyone have suggestions? What do people here use for getting stats on programs like this? I'm not sure there is anything special about web applications - after all to the system they should look as just another process, although it usually generates lots of network traffic. exmap seems to be something about this, I haven't used it but from its Debian package dependencies it looks like it depends on GTK2 so it must be some sort of a GUI-based application. But maybe you can run it remotely with its window opened on your local $DISPLAY. --Amos -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Checking my understanding of using DynDNS.org services.
On Tue, Feb 13, 2007 at 09:51:55PM +1100, Mike Lake wrote: Hi all On Mon 12 Feb 2007, Alex Samad wrote: I have had bigpond for about 4 years, I use their smtp server as an outbound, to stop my mail being blocked because it came from a dial up (I'm on cable). I haven't had a problem. I have my own domain setup. Haven't had a problem with tpg or exetel either. I think most isp allow relaying through there smtp (outbound from your laptop to the internet) from all of their ip addresses I had been told that Bigpond would block smtp and searching on Google for smtp and Bigpond shows many frustrated users who have been blocked but I had better have a try and see what gives. I have reconfigured exim4 and guessed a few things as I don't know much about mail but Bigpond's website gives its mail site name as mail.bigpond.com so I set exim to use it and I think it has worked. This email is sent from mutt while at home using Bigpond. This email should appear to come from [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from qsrv03ps.mx.bigpond.com (qsrv03ps.mx.bigpond.com [144.140.82.183]) by rusty.slug.org.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A22511800F for slug@slug.org.au; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:57:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost ([121.210.152.45]) by omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id [EMAIL PROTECTED] for slug@slug.org.au; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:51:22 + Received: from mikel by localhost with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from [EMAIL PROTECTED]) id 1HGvGN-0001C7-Ub for slug@slug.org.au; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:51:55 +1100 seems to be okay i think the problem with the smtp servers is people using the in bound smtp server bigpond have and not the outbound smtp servers Mike -- Mike Lake Caver, Linux enthusiast and interested in anything technical. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
Dtrace? Just kidding. I'm interested in this answer too. We have similar probs. but between PHP/Apache and Apache Tomcat. Stu Director Polonious Pty Ltd (m) 0403 470 123 Polonious Support Numbers: Sydney: 61-2-9007-9842 Chicago: 1-312-212-3952 This above all: to thine ownself be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
Amos Shapira wrote: On 13/02/07, Mike Lake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Googling for 'memory profiler web applications' and things brings up things that you use to find memory leaks in apps which I dont want. Naturally top just gives me instantaneous values which don't mean much when a web app is only getting a few hits a minute or even less. Thats why I want to get an average over a few hours or so. Also I don't have Gnome or any gui thing on this server so it has to be command line or a perl or bash or other program that can be run from command line. Output to file would be perfect. Does anyone have suggestions? What do people here use for getting stats on programs like this? I'm not sure there is anything special about web applications - after all to the system they should look as just another process, although it usually generates lots of network traffic. Yes, thats correct. I would just look at the sum total of all the Perl processes=the Perl app that is running vs sum of all Java stuff=the Tomcat. exmap seems to be something about this, I haven't used it but from its Debian package dependencies it looks like it depends on GTK2 so it must be some sort of a GUI-based application. But maybe you can run it remotely with its window opened on your local $DISPLAY. I found that using apt-cache on my laptop but to install it it will pull in GTK. As you mention it I have just looked it up on the web. Its using GTK for display only and its a perl script underneath that does the analysis. See its homepage at: http://www.berthels.co.uk/exmap/ Exmap is a tool to allow the real memory usage of a collection of processes to be examined. A linux kernel loadable module is used to export information to userspace, which is examined by a perl/gtk application to build a picture of how pages are shared amongst processes and their shared libraries. BUT! Exmap is linux-specific, since it uses a linux kernel loadable module. Additionally, the kernel module requires a fairly recent kernel (2.6.8 works, as may some earlier 2.6) in order to successfully compile or run. The server I have is a vserver running 2.4.22 kernel. So exmap is out anyways. Thanks for the suggestion. Mike -- Michael Lake Computational Research Support Unit Science Faculty, UTS Ph: 9514 2238 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] Re: GnuPG key signatures - tools to automate accepting them?
On 14/02/07, Andrew Ruthven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I save the signatures into a directory (easy with Evolution's Save All button) and then in a shell run: gpg --import 0x* Easy. Thanks to you and others who replied. I ended up using mutt's ^K to extract most of the keys, though quite a few were sent in a way that this didn't work, so I had to manually save the keys into a file and to the --import as you suggested. I'm not sure what was different about these keys except that apparently they weren't sent using caff :). I was hoping to be able to avoid the manual work but it turned out not to be too bad when mutt was on my side... Cheers, --Amos -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] Re: GnuPG key signatures - tools to automate accepting them?
On 14/02/07, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: caff deliberately does not upload other people's signatures directly, though I don't know if there is some etiquette-related reason for doing that. Yes actually there is - people might not want their key to be available on public servers for various reasons (it weakens the key's security a bit, spam bots harvest addresses, privacy and more). So the proper thing is to e-mail the signed key back to its owner. Be aware that once you submit a key to the keyservers there is no way to delete it (or at least that's what I read in the MIT key server's documentation). Cheers, --Amos -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] making boot floppy 'no space left'
Effectively the mkbootdisk command builds the image in temp disk space then uses 'dd' (or cp?) to write to the floppy device. If either there's not enough space in /tmp or the floppy isn't formatted ok you're going to have problems. If /tmp is full firstly try deleting stuff then try creating /home/tmp with same permissions then mv /tmp /tmp.old; ln -s /home/tmp /tmp You're probably going to need at least half a meg of temp space before it does the compression. It looks more like the target system didn't have enough space. This usually means the floppy needs reformatting. man fdformat eg: fdformat /dev/fd0H1440 - frequently I find failures because a) the floppy drive is old/dirty/disused and secondly the media has been laying around gathering dust. Before you start, flip the drive door open and blow air into it to dislodge dust. Manually inspect the media for crap inside the jacket - it can damage the drive too. Did I mention I hate floppy drives? On Thu, 21 Dec 2006, Voytek Eymont wrote: I'm tryying to make a boot floppy on 1.44 media, I get: 'no space' is that space on floppy ? where am I going wrong ? # mkbootdisk --device /dev/fd0 2.6.9-42.0.3.EL Insert a disk in /dev/fd0. Any information on the disk will be lost. Press Enter to continue or ^C to abort: cp: writing `/tmp/mkbootdisk.sR3853/vmlinuz': No space left on device cp: writing `/tmp/mkbootdisk.sR3853/initrd.img': No space left on device cat: write error: No space left on device cat: write error: No space left on device 20+0 records in 20+0 records out # df | grep /tmp 1064312 37060973188 4% /tmp # ls -al /tmp total 2968 drwxrwxrwt 7 root root4096 Dec 21 12:48 . drwxr-xr-x 24 root root4096 Dec 21 12:13 .. drwxrwxrwt 2 root root4096 Dec 21 12:14 .font-unix drwxrwxrwt 2 root root4096 Dec 21 12:13 .ICE-unix drwx-- 2 root root 16384 Dec 19 23:36 lost+found drwx-- 2 root root4096 Dec 21 12:40 mc-root -rw--- 1 root root 1474560 Dec 21 12:48 mkbootdisk.di3864 drwx-- 2 root root4096 Dec 21 12:38 mkbootdisk.JY3692 -rw--- 1 root root 1474560 Dec 21 12:42 mkbootdisk.tO3735 -rw--- 1 root root1024 Dec 19 23:52 .rnd -- ---GRiP--- Grant Parnell - SLUG President LPIC-1 certified engineer EverythingLinux services - the consultant's backup tech support. Web: http://www.elx.com.au/support.php We're also busybits.com.au and linuxhelp.com.au and everythinglinux.com.au. Phone 02 8756 3522 to book service or discuss your needs or email us at paidsupport at elx.com.au ELX or its employees participate in the following:- OSIA (Open Source Industry Australia) - http://www.osia.net.au AUUG (Australian Unix Users Group) - http://www.auug.org.au SLUG (Sydney Linux Users Group) - http://www.slug.org.au LA (Linux Australia) - http://www.linux.org.au -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
Michael, I would probably simply run a script something like 'while [ 1 ]; do date ps.log; ps axv | egrep perl|tomcat|apache ps.log;sleep 15; done' Then compare results over time (probably using a perl script to parse and accumulate the data you need) sar is also nice to log and give overall stats e.g. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sar -r 2 5 Linux 2.6.15-27-386 (reepy) 14/02/07 10:26:16kbmemfree kbmemused %memused kbbuffers kbcached kbswpfree kbswpused %swpused kbswpcad 10:26:1848964142516 74.43 15372 46796 984856 19164 1.91 4 10:26:2048964142516 74.43 15372 46796 984856 19164 1.91 4 10:26:2248964142516 74.43 15376 46796 984856 19164 1.91 4 10:26:2448964142516 74.43 15376 46796 984856 19164 1.91 4 10:26:2648836142644 74.50 15376 46796 984856 19164 1.91 4 Average:48938142542 74.44 15374 46796 984856 19164 1.91 4 Regards, Martin On 2/14/07, Michael Lake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Amos Shapira wrote: On 13/02/07, Mike Lake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Googling for 'memory profiler web applications' and things brings up things that you use to find memory leaks in apps which I dont want. Naturally top just gives me instantaneous values which don't mean much when a web app is only getting a few hits a minute or even less. Thats why I want to get an average over a few hours or so. Also I don't have Gnome or any gui thing on this server so it has to be command line or a perl or bash or other program that can be run from command line. Output to file would be perfect. Does anyone have suggestions? What do people here use for getting stats on programs like this? I'm not sure there is anything special about web applications - after all to the system they should look as just another process, although it usually generates lots of network traffic. Yes, thats correct. I would just look at the sum total of all the Perl processes=the Perl app that is running vs sum of all Java stuff=the Tomcat. exmap seems to be something about this, I haven't used it but from its Debian package dependencies it looks like it depends on GTK2 so it must be some sort of a GUI-based application. But maybe you can run it remotely with its window opened on your local $DISPLAY. I found that using apt-cache on my laptop but to install it it will pull in GTK. As you mention it I have just looked it up on the web. Its using GTK for display only and its a perl script underneath that does the analysis. See its homepage at: http://www.berthels.co.uk/exmap/ Exmap is a tool to allow the real memory usage of a collection of processes to be examined. A linux kernel loadable module is used to export information to userspace, which is examined by a perl/gtk application to build a picture of how pages are shared amongst processes and their shared libraries. BUT! Exmap is linux-specific, since it uses a linux kernel loadable module. Additionally, the kernel module requires a fairly recent kernel (2.6.8 works, as may some earlier 2.6) in order to successfully compile or run. The server I have is a vserver running 2.4.22 kernel. So exmap is out anyways. Thanks for the suggestion. Mike -- Michael Lake Computational Research Support Unit Science Faculty, UTS Ph: 9514 2238 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html -- Regards, Martin Martin Visser -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
quote who=Stuart Guthrie Dtrace? Just kidding. Why kidding? It's an exceptional tool for the job. How much does your Open Source operating system choice *really* matter [1]? It's worth changing the complement to your work if it's not helping you! - Jeff [1] Okay, so 'management' is a really good answer to this. You could always run multiple testing platforms. -- Open CeBIT 2007: Sydney, Australia http://www.opencebit.com.au/ GDK (acronym): GNU's Not Unix Image Manipulation Program Tool-Kit Drawing-Kit. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] revoking and unrevoking uid looses signatures?
Hello, I've mistakenly revoked an old uid then realized that what I should have done is to add my new e-mail address to that key. I've unrevoked the key by removing the revocation signature but now it doesn's list all the signatures I had on this key before. I haven't updated key servers with the key yet, so there is no issue of that... Is there a way to get these signatures back? Thanks, --Amos -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
On Wednesday 14 February 2007 08:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a virtual server under my control which runs a perl web application and now a Java Tomcat app which uses mail a fair bit. I'm loking for something which will tell me how much memory the perl app is taking versus the Tomcat app over a period of say 1 hour or so. Googling for 'memory profiler web applications' and things brings up things that you use to find memory leaks in apps which I dont want. Naturally top just gives me instantaneous values which don't mean much when a web app is only getting a few hits a minute or even less. Thats why I want to get an average over a few hours or so. Also I don't have Gnome or any gui thing on this server so it has to be command line or a perl or bash or other program that can be run from command line. Output to file would be perfect. Does anyone have suggestions? What do people here use for getting stats on programs like this? If you are finding it hard ... it's because there is no such thing! An app running consists of [the app]-usually small [shared libraries]-usually big. So 10 apps is a bit more than 1 app. (10*app + shared libraries) At any one instant memory-usage-on-a-system vs system+app1 and system+app2 is a broad fuzzy kind of general hint. EG an app may use vast amounts of mem that is never touched and is safely ignored in swap. So it would look like a memory pig but really be a very attractive (efficiency wise) program. EG kde is much more memory hungry than icewm. How much? well lots! Does it show? Depends on what else the system is doing! The metric you are seeking could easily be totally misleading. If you insist on doing this study the output of top until you are bored. UNIX is not like windows. A metric on one does not compare to the other. Best advice: lower the physical ram until your system swaps. compare apps. James -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Checking my understanding of using DynDNS.org services.
On Wednesday 14 February 2007 08:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had bigpond for about 4 years, I use their smtp server as an outbound, to stop my mail being blocked because it came from a dial up (I'm on cable). I haven't had a problem. I have my own domain setup. Haven't had a problem with tpg or exetel either. I think most isp allow relaying through there smtp (outbound from your laptop to the internet) from all of their ip addresses I had been told that Bigpond would block smtp and searching on Google for smtp and Bigpond shows many frustrated users who have been blocked but I had better have a try and see what gives. I have reconfigured exim4 and guessed a few things as I don't know much about mail but Bigpond's website gives its mail site name as mail.bigpond.com so I set exim to use it and I think it has worked. This email is sent from mutt while at home using Bigpond. I have read (in Bigpond blurb) that various ports are blocked including smpt. They also say that for $10 / month you can get a fixed IP and unblocked ports. Now THAT may be the only good thing they've every done smile James -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
You might try dstat - http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/dstat/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Memory profiler for web applications and other processes.
On Wed, 2007-02-14 at 12:04 +1100, Matthew Hannigan wrote: You might try dstat - http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/dstat/ Cute! Rob -- GPG key available at: http://www.robertcollins.net/keys.txt. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Checking my understanding of using DynDNS.org services.
On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 09:48:49AM +0900, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 14 February 2007 08:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had bigpond for about 4 years, I use their smtp server as an outbound, to stop my mail being blocked because it came from a dial up (I'm on cable). I haven't had a problem. I have my own domain setup. Haven't had a problem with tpg or exetel either. I think most isp allow relaying through there smtp (outbound from your laptop to the internet) from all of their ip addresses I had been told that Bigpond would block smtp and searching on Google for smtp and Bigpond shows many frustrated users who have been blocked but I had better have a try and see what gives. I have reconfigured exim4 and guessed a few things as I don't know much about mail but Bigpond's website gives its mail site name as mail.bigpond.com so I set exim to use it and I think it has worked. This email is sent from mutt while at home using Bigpond. I have read (in Bigpond blurb) that various ports are blocked including smpt. They also say that for $10 / month you can get a fixed IP and unblocked ports. Now THAT may be the only good thing they've every done smile I think that is only for adsl not for cable James -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Checking my understanding of using DynDNS.org services.
On 14/02/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 14 February 2007 08:05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had bigpond for about 4 years, I use their smtp server as an outbound, to stop my mail being blocked because it came from a dial up (I'm on cable). I haven't had a problem. I have my own domain setup. Haven't had a problem with tpg or exetel either. I think most isp allow relaying through there smtp (outbound from your laptop to the internet) from all of their ip addresses I had been told that Bigpond would block smtp and searching on Google for smtp and Bigpond shows many frustrated users who have been blocked but I had better have a try and see what gives. I have reconfigured exim4 and guessed a few things as I don't know much about mail but Bigpond's website gives its mail site name as mail.bigpond.com so I set exim to use it and I think it has worked. This email is sent from mutt while at home using Bigpond. I have read (in Bigpond blurb) that various ports are blocked including smpt. They also say that for $10 / month you can get a fixed IP and unblocked ports. Now THAT may be the only good thing they've every done smile James SMPT? Simple Mail.. Posting Transport? Blocking outbound SMTP generally means blocking outbound connections on port 25. Gmail's service requires you to use SSL on port 465, will generally bypass this. There's been quite a few mentions in this thread about the header that gets added by Gmail. The header that gets set is the Sender: header. Outlook in particular does bizarre things with this header: an email with From: Phil A. Scarratt [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Sender: Phil B. Scarrat [EMAIL PROTECTED] will show in outlook as being From: Phil B. Scarrat [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Phil A. Scarrat [EMAIL PROTECTED]. From: headers, reply-to headers and the like will be left unmunged, and that's better than some mailing lists I could mention.. If you can live with that, Gmail is cheap and reliable. I just noticed that, amongst the rest of the evil munging this list does, it also munges the sender address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED]. That must mean that anyone reading the list in outlook sees each and every post to the list as being Fom: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of. ick! -- There is nothing more worthy of contempt than a man who quotes himself - Zhasper, 2004 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Checking my understanding of using DynDNS.org services.
On 14/02/07, Zhasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just noticed that, amongst the rest of the evil munging this list does, it also munges the sender address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED]. That must mean that anyone reading the list in outlook sees each and every post to the list as being Fom: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of. ick! Yes, yes it does. http://www.flickr.com/photos/zhasper/389821431/ Eww. -- There is nothing more worthy of contempt than a man who quotes himself - Zhasper, 2004 -- There is nothing more worthy of contempt than a man who quotes himself - Zhasper, 2004 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
