Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
On Thursday 16 March 2006 18:47, Bohdan S [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. If it
wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now?
You are making the assumption that Microsoft was the only group capable of
making an affordable, usable OS. If Microsoft weren't around, we'd have
something else, like OS/2, Amiga or BeOS. In some ways, these are _still_
better than Windows.
Without Microsoft, we would probably have had a much more dynamic and
competitive industry, as we had in the 1980s. A good way to see what MS has
done to the industry is to read the U.S. v. Microsoft Findings of Fact
document:
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
If you want a summary, skip to the last section (titled THE EFFECT ON
CONSUMERS OF MICROSOFT'S EFFORTS TO PROTECT THE APPLICATIONS BARRIER TO
ENTRY).
P.S. You only need one full stop to signify the end of a sentence.
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To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab
world against us and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day hero ...
assigning young soldiers ... to fight in what would be an un-winnable urban
guerilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:47, Bohdan S wrote: I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. Microsoft is convicted in US Federal Court of using unlawful pressure (economic extortion) to control the market. It's a crime, and they knew it was before they did it. If they were honest people I'd give them equal standing, but I don't like thieves: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm If Microsoft goes out of business, the smart people that work there would not evaporate - they would go and work for someone else and we'd have more diversity and opportunity in the market. If it wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now? Personal computers happened because the people wanted them. There is so much money in this market there is zero chance it wouldn't have been fulfilled. There are several lines of personal computer that were sold before Microsoft got anywhere near the business, and Microsoft didn't make the people who became it's employees smart - they just bribed them to work for Microsoft. Those smart people would have done it anyway - without the lies and crimes. Thievery is thievery, and this isn't opinion - it's a conviction in a lawful public court. it wasent until windows as we know it (9x) came around that she relised the potential of a computer! She didn't try a Mac. They did all that sort of thing long before Microsoft got around to it, before Windows 3.1. I know - I was in the business then - and I still am. TrueType fonts, for example, are an Apple invention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_fonts It's only because there is so much you don't know that you can think that we owe Microsoft credit for anything besides relying on unethical marketing instead of honest technical ability. The choice between the technologies is a personal one - just 'cause I like it doesn't mean it's better. Or worse. But in addition, Microsoft is a company of convicted cheats. Who I'm willing to get in bed with says a lot about me, and what my values are. If Microsoft wasn't in business (it was the Bush administration that chose not to impose the proper penalties - he never met a rich donor he didn't like), then the games would be written for another platform - Mac or Linux or Solaris or NeXT or BEOS (which had multimedia powers Windows can only pretend to have in the ads - nothing Microsoft can do comes close). No one would leave that sort of money lying around - they'd write the games. The idea that we owe Microsoft allegiance because they've cheated their way into the biggest position is itself the best indication of the worth of your suggestions. In my opinion. I won't help cheats get away with more of it. How much of a good neighbor am I if I pay criminals to hang around where I live and dig themselves deeper into my neighborhood? Who will they attack next? It's not my responsibility - I just give them money. If it's ok for Microsoft to gain by lying (known fact) is it then also ok for you to gain by lying? What do you say to that proposition? This is really what it's about, you know. Microsoft sucks because they decided to, of their own free will. They could have played a hard but honest game, but they didn't. They knew the law, they have good lawyers, and they cheated, and brought a great deal of misery to the people who worked for the companies they put out of business by the cheating that they were convicted of. What about those people, whose own dreams were shattered so you could get your games on Windows? But you like your games, and anyone who gets them for you is ok with you, yes? Is that all there is to it? Why do you think the European Union is tearing Microsoft a new one even as we write these messages? If they were tough businessmen, I'd admire them - but that court conviction is real, and truthfully they owe all of their (ill-gained) profits to the people they cheated out of business. The employees are invited to get jobs with someone honest. Good luck, Bret pgpi2kpsU3PDL.pgp Description: PGP signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
RE: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
and install Linux and watch their eyes light up. There are lots of things to do make Linux really go places - just a little work and patience and probably a lot of love, but that sounds a bit mushy :-) Regards, Martin Martin Visser TechnologyConsultant Consulting IntegrationTechnology Solutions Group - HP Services 410 Concord RoadRhodesNSW 2138Australia Mobile: +61-411-254-513Fax: +61-2-9022-1800 E-mail: martin.visserAThp.com This email (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify HP immediately by return email and then delete the email, destroy any printed copy and do not disclose or use the information in it. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bohdan SSent: Thursday, 16 March 2006 6:48 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; slug@slug.org.auSubject: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. If it wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now? we owned a amstrad before a 486 and my mother was to scared to learn how to use the amstrad and windows 3.1 all she did was connect to the net and use netscape it wasent until windows as we know it (9x) came around that she relised the potential of a computer! and how many things (ie wireless, PnP, hardware support you know what i mean) JUST WORK in windows (maybe some fidling) but i still to this day have not found anyone who can get linux + wireless working at the university. and what about powersaving or lets go to deskto machines what games are there that JUST RUN in linux? without having to recompile one thing or another or edit some config file im not saying linux is bad and windows is great... im saying EACH have there own place computers NEED both... and now we also have Mac OSX LOL so we dont need either anymore ;) ;) (btw i dont really like OSX i just like to annoy people :P ). so lets try and get more windows and linux together and less baggin windows because all us leet *nix users who cant play games or use our usb toys (hehehe mug warmer.) but have a OS noone else understands lol.Well thats MY 2cents now i gota hide me email so i dont get flammed lol (j/k) On 3/16/06, Matt Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 08:24:11AM +1100, ashley maher wrote: An interesting interview. http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/3629/106/ quote Windows is more reliable than Linux. /quote It's all about perspective.When it comes to relying on your OS to be fullof holes and chock full of viruses, you'd have to admit that Windows *is*far more reliable than Linux.- Matt--I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as mytelephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.-- Bjarne Stroustrup___ SCLUG mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.sclug.asn.au/mailman/listinfo/sclug-- Bohdan[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
Bohdan S wrote:
I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. If it
wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now?
LOL, you must be a kid. Just as many would.
The big problem for past computer users was that IT dept forced peeps to
standardise on MS OS so they could create a situation that justified the
IT depts existance.
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security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
Bret Comstock Waldow wrote: On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:47, Bohdan S wrote: I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. Microsoft is convicted in US Federal Court of using unlawful pressure (economic extortion) to control the market. It's a crime, and they knew it was before they did it. If they were honest people I'd give them equal standing, but I don't like thieves: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm ...and in the EU and S Korea, and probably in Japan soon... If Microsoft goes out of business, the smart people that work there would not evaporate - they would go and work for someone else and we'd have more diversity and opportunity in the market. If it wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now? Personal computers happened because the people wanted them. There is so much money in this market there is zero chance it wouldn't have been fulfilled. There are several lines of personal computer that were sold before Microsoft got anywhere near the business, and Microsoft didn't make the people who became it's employees smart - they just bribed them to work for Microsoft. me too - CP/M anyone... Those smart people would have done it anyway - without the lies and crimes. Thievery is thievery, and this isn't opinion - it's a conviction in a lawful public court. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people http://lannetlinux.com When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
Terry Collins wrote: Bohdan S wrote: I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. If it wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now? LOL, you must be a kid. Just as many would. The big problem for past computer users was that IT dept forced peeps to standardise on MS OS so they could create a situation that justified the IT depts existance. This is cynical attitude to take towards IT depts. The major reason why we standardise is due to cost. It is not due to the whims and caprices of IT dept. Standardisation saves cost whether it is computing, manufacturing, primary industries, or any entrepreneural endeavour. Standardisation is one of the basic tools we use to achieve economy of scale. (Economics 102?) Whether it is MS or Unix or Mac or Linux the reason is cost. And this is not only for the direct cost of hardware and software but for the on-going ( or total cost of ownership ) cost like training cost, the availability of these training infrastructures, skills and knowledge base cost required to run and maintain the systems, quality and reliability in the supply of skills and knowledge, etc. It is nice to have every available systems, unfortunately, IT departments have pre-determined budgets and they intend to optimise that budget. Lowest cost/benefits ratios are the name of the game for IT departments. On-going cost is more problematic on the hip pocket. When an organization has one system it needs one skills-set; if two two-skills sets; more than two skills-sets are required when you have more. Remember our spreadsheets ? Hope this helps. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 03:54, O Plameras wrote: This is cynical attitude to take towards IT depts. The major reason why we standardise is due to cost. It is not due to the whims and caprices of IT dept. This may be true (I'm not disputing it). I can, however, point out another reason IT depts. choose software - management, and in particular, poor management. I've often seen managers and executive staff make decisions, some of which make sense by their criteria, and others which turn out to be disastrous. But it's often an uninformed decision - people without a better understanding of their own are swayed by advertising and herd instincts - they have no other inputs. As the pointy haired boss said once, We want to make sure we jump under the bandwagon before the train leaves the station. While I was at IBM NZ, a manager made the decision to move development of the national police computer system off OS/2 and onto Windows. Mid-stream. For no technical reason, it was just herd mentality. Didn't cost less - IBM has the license to OS/2. Result? 4 years and $25 million over budget, it's cancelled, sparking a Parliamentary inquiry. IT departments, like employees, often have poor decisions thrust upon them. Cheers, Bret pgpfDnMqQa5VA.pgp Description: PGP signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
Bret Comstock Waldow wrote: On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 03:54, O Plameras wrote: This is cynical attitude to take towards IT depts. The major reason why we standardise is due to cost. It is not due to the whims and caprices of IT dept. This may be true (I'm not disputing it). I can, however, point out another reason IT depts. choose software - management, and in particular, poor management. I've often seen managers and executive staff make decisions, some of which make sense by their criteria, and others which turn out to be disastrous. But it's often an uninformed decision - people without a better understanding of their own are swayed by advertising and herd instincts - they have no other inputs. I suspect the spreadsheet is right but project management is broken. Hope this helps. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
O Plameras wrote:
The major reason why we standardise is due to cost. It is not due to
the whims and caprices of IT dept.
I prefer to buy stuff that works. SOE can impose shite.
e.g works brilliant under windows[1], but buggy under *nix.
[1] actually, nothing works brilliant under windows and the particular
instances that come to mind, it was novell that it worked under.
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Wombat Outdoor Adventures Bicycles, Computers, Outdoors, Publishing
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
Terry Collins wrote: O Plameras wrote: The major reason why we standardise is due to cost. It is not due to the whims and caprices of IT dept. I prefer to buy stuff that works. Then standardised on stuff that works. You have what you want on top of economy of scale. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] Re: [SCLUG] Re: Interesting view
I dont like how all these Linux users bag Windows S much. If it wasent for windows how many of us would own a computer right now? we owned a amstrad before a 486 and my mother was to scared to learn how to use the amstrad and windows 3.1 all she did was connect to the net and use netscape it wasent until windows as we know it (9x) came around that she relised the potential of a computer! and how many things (ie wireless, PnP, hardware support you know what i mean) JUST WORK in windows (maybe some fidling) but i still to this day have not found anyone who can get linux + wireless working at the university. and what about powersaving or lets go to deskto machines what games are there that JUST RUN in linux? without having to recompile one thing or another or edit some config file im not saying linux is bad and windows is great... im saying EACH have there own place computers NEED both... and now we also have Mac OSX LOL so we dont need either anymore ;) ;) (btw i dont really like OSX i just like to annoy people :P ). so lets try and get more windows and linux together and less baggin windows because all us leet *nix users who cant play games or use our usb toys (hehehe mug warmer.) but have a OS noone else understands lol. Well thats MY 2cents now i gota hide me email so i dont get flammed lol (j/k)On 3/16/06, Matt Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 08:24:11AM +1100, ashley maher wrote: An interesting interview. http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/3629/106/ quote Windows is more reliable than Linux. /quote It's all about perspective.When it comes to relying on your OS to be fullof holes and chock full of viruses, you'd have to admit that Windows *is*far more reliable than Linux.- Matt-- I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as mytelephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.-- Bjarne Stroustrup___ SCLUG mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.sclug.asn.au/mailman/listinfo/sclug -- Bohdan[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
