Re: [SLUG] Re: Still is??: Re: linux jobs ##
One thing you should consider is that clients like to know that the company they are about to give their business to is staffed by quality people. So employers like to be able to quote the qualifications of their employees. At the moment this isn't a big issue with the job market place being the way it is, but it has been in the past and may be again in the future... P. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Still is??: Re: linux jobs ##
At 02:31 PM 9/09/00 +1100, Angus Lees wrote:
On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 11:40:14AM +1100, Matt Allen wrote:
On the programming side of things, This is what *i* mostly do and
all I think uni would have done for me is put me back 3-4 years.
The question I ask is "Could uni have taught me how to write PHP and
HTML". I guess sort of, maybe in the basics but it still would have
taken 3-4 years :)
snip
As someone completing their final semester of a BSc Comp. Sci. I have to
agree with Angus. Uni aims to teach you general techniques and concepts as
opposed to specific languages. From my experience, Macquarie Uni doesn't
have the "packer" problem. Over the years (and I've been there for a fair
few now) I have seen the tools change, but the ideas stay the same.
From my first year programming experience of Pascal mSQL when I was
still aiming for a degree in Chemistry to when I decided to pursue a Comp
Sci Degree and found the later part of the 1st year component changed from
Pascal to Eiffel in an attempt to introduce OO from early on. They were
still teaching you the general concepts, ADT's, recursion etc etc (you all
know the stuff so I won't rattle it all off). During my time working my way
towards a degree we used languages such as the ones mentioned above, as
well as moving to a unix environment from 2nd year onwards with languages
such as C++, Oracle, DLX (to learn assembly), Prolog Java.
But they were just that.. tools. The concepts I've learnt turn learning a
new language into a simple case of flicking through the appropriate
O'reily's to learn the syntax and within a few days you are writing code
fairly proficiently (ie without having to constantly refer to the book) for
which ever language you need. I've done that now with perl, PHP and
VBscript (for ASP's)(yes I know, blurgh yukky MS code but it got me web dev
exp.) for my job working for the uni.
I'm not saying university is the only way to "get it" but it certainly
provides a structured way of learning how to "get it" and it has worked for
me. Others prefer different approaches to learning the same things I'm
sure. I certainly believe that if the person has the potential to "get it"
they just have to find the right method for them. The added bonus of a Uni
is that often they have job vacancies on campus that help you gain job
related experience (mainly in IT though) to get the groundwork that Gus was
talking about.
I'll leave out the blatant "I'll be graduating and finishing my current job
in Feb and will have 1yrs exp under my belt if anyone needs a worker" spiel
out for now :)
Paul
we all know that there are those who "get it", and those that
don't. if someone "gets it" they don't learn *a* language, they learn
the general techniques (/idioms) and concepts appropriate to a
particular style of language. learning a new language then becomes
flicking to the appendix on syntax at the back of the relevant
o'reilly.
of course a uni course wouldn't (or shouldn't) teach you "how to write
PHP and HTML". thats not what uni is for.
unfortunately uni's are now filled with packers, since they are by far
the majority. the curricula and funding are controlled by packers who
want to "see results" and don't understand that someone who comes out
of a uni course *shouldn't* know how to do anything specific.
if you still want a "classical" education, you have to go to a uni and
look for it. they are still there if you find the right group of
people, the right subjects and keep yourself suitably distanced from
the actual details of the material being presented. regular
conversations with groups of like-minded people, prompted by the
opinion and explanation of an "expert", is by far the fastest way to
truly learn.
i've worked with a few, and its a very sad thing to meet someone who
"gets it", but hasn't been given the groundwork they need meet their
potential.
don't go to uni to prepare for a job. if that is your expectation, a
short course at TAFE will save you money, time and frustration.
and hire someone who "gets it" over someone who doesn't every single
time. regardless of paper qualifications.
/esoteric
--
- Gus
("Free software meets Buddhist enlightenment" religion anyone?)
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
---
Paul Robinson
Web Developer / Programmer
Centre for Flexible Learning
Macquarie University
NSW 2109, Australia
Voice: +61 2 9850 8424
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Still is??: Re: linux jobs ##
As someone completing their final semester of a BSc Comp. Sci. I have to agree with Angus. Uni aims to teach you general techniques and concepts as opposed to specific languages. This is the point at which I say, "Hear, hear!" And I haven't even completed Uni! (and do I feel the duffer for it...) They were still teaching you the general concepts, ADT's, recursion etc etc (you all know the stuff so I won't rattle it all off). [ 8 snip ] But they were just that.. tools. The concepts I've learnt turn learning a new language into a simple case of flicking through the appropriate O'reily's to learn the syntax and within a few days you are writing code fairly proficiently Here's what bugs me... Web developers running around saying they can code. I can't. I know a fair bit, I've written a hell of a lot of it, and maybe I've seen a glimpse of "getting it". It worries me greatly when I see *scripts* (this is interpreted, baby!) with hundreds of lines of switch statements, when a simplistic table method would have done it in maybe 5% of that (with some helper code). But me? I still know poopies compared to seriously skilled coders, and I still make *absolutely* idiotic oversights. Cutting your teeth as a web developer does that to you. I'm not saying university is the only way to "get it" but it certainly provides a structured way of learning how to "get it" and it has worked for me. Others prefer different approaches to learning the same things I'm sure. I certainly believe that if the person has the potential to "get it" they just have to find the right method for them. A sobering thought... A couple of weeks ago I was pointed towards a Linux Journal article about qualifications of kernel coders (I don't have the link, but it's in their archives). It was done as research after a PHB called them something along the lines of 3rd year college long-hairs. Ultimately, it proved the PHB wrong, as most of the respondents (and there were quite a few) were graduates or beyond (way beyond). There were very few non-graduates. Now, I'm not saying I want to be a kernel developer (well, *everyone* wants to be a kernel developer "when they grow up" so it doesn't count)... But it is an indication of where education will get you. *sigh* - Jeff -- please excuse the email software :) -- moses hasn't gnu parted the hard drives at work (yet) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Still is??: Re: linux jobs ##
A sobering thought... A couple of weeks ago I was pointed towards a Linux Journal article about qualifications of kernel coders (I don't have the link, but it's in their archives). It was done as research after a PHB called them something along the lines of 3rd year college long-hairs. Slackarse. Be nice and include a link next time, would you? http://www2.linuxjournal.com/lj-issues/issue57/2931.html - Jeff -- please excuse the email software :) -- moses hasn't gnu parted the hard drives at work (yet) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: Still is??: Re: linux jobs ##
On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 10:43:48AM +1000, Dave Kempe wrote: b) stay with the job and ditch (or defer) uni in favour of some sort of linux-based/related training, which could see me using such skills in a job in the not too distant future? Hey its a daring thing to suggest, but if you have the right experience, join the club of us people who drop out of uni after a few years, get a job and have a great time working with linux stuff :) if you're happy sysadmining, then uni isn't as important as practical experience (although some good uni-level networking or OS knowledge can help solve the really evil problems) if you want to be a coder, you can't go past the extra maths, coding (data structures, algorithms, etc) and even basic software engineering practices that you really only learn at uni. the difference between a coder who has been to uni (and actually learnt some of it) and one who hasn't is easily noticeable. my degree is going to have taken me 6 years (hopefully i finish this year). even though i just wish it would stop, there's no way i would know what i know now without having done it. (mind you, only an extremely small number of uni graduates seem to "get it". so don't think uni is a magic cure) -- - Gus -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Re: Still is??: Re: linux jobs ##
On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 11:40:14AM +1100, Matt Allen wrote:
On the programming side of things, This is what *i* mostly do and
all I think uni would have done for me is put me back 3-4 years.
The question I ask is "Could uni have taught me how to write PHP and
HTML". I guess sort of, maybe in the basics but it still would have
taken 3-4 years :)
neal stephenson has a good article called "in the beginning was the
command line":
http://cryptonomicon.com/command.zip
(read it, its good)
its completely irrelevant to this discussion, except that he comes up
with a good distinction between computer users:
people who use the interfaces (/abstractions) provided.
people who understand how things work, and provide the interfaces for
those who don't.
neal calls them "eloi" and "morlocks" respectively. (yes, as in "the
time machine")
i've also read a similar (although described completely differently)
distinction given in "the programmer's stone" (do a web search and
read it too, its also good): "packers" are people who learn by storing
and retrieving new facts. "mappers" learn by building a large "map" of
the relationships between everything and extrapolate from there.
we all know that there are those who "get it", and those that
don't. if someone "gets it" they don't learn *a* language, they learn
the general techniques (/idioms) and concepts appropriate to a
particular style of language. learning a new language then becomes
flicking to the appendix on syntax at the back of the relevant
o'reilly.
of course a uni course wouldn't (or shouldn't) teach you "how to write
PHP and HTML". thats not what uni is for.
unfortunately uni's are now filled with packers, since they are by far
the majority. the curricula and funding are controlled by packers who
want to "see results" and don't understand that someone who comes out
of a uni course *shouldn't* know how to do anything specific.
if you still want a "classical" education, you have to go to a uni and
look for it. they are still there if you find the right group of
people, the right subjects and keep yourself suitably distanced from
the actual details of the material being presented. regular
conversations with groups of like-minded people, prompted by the
opinion and explanation of an "expert", is by far the fastest way to
truly learn.
i've worked with a few, and its a very sad thing to meet someone who
"gets it", but hasn't been given the groundwork they need meet their
potential.
don't go to uni to prepare for a job. if that is your expectation, a
short course at TAFE will save you money, time and frustration.
and hire someone who "gets it" over someone who doesn't every single
time. regardless of paper qualifications.
/esoteric
--
- Gus
("Free software meets Buddhist enlightenment" religion anyone?)
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Re: Still is??: Re: linux jobs ##
"in the beginning was the command line" "eloi" and "morlocks" "the programmer's stone" "packers" "mappers" Thanks Gus. I was googling for all of these whilst trying to write a response - I don't need to write one now, plus I have all the links again. :) Read all of these. They elevate. - Jeff -- please excuse the email software :) -- moses hasn't gnu parted the hard drives (yet) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
