[SLUG] Re: graduate programmers
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 02:48:02PM +0100, Glen Turner wrote: James Purser wrote: Economics 101: A Graduate is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay them. Yep, and a quick look at the stats from the Graduate Careers Council of Australia shows that recent median first year salaries for IT graduates under 25 years of age (ie, no work history) in Sydney is $40,000. under 25 years of age doesn't mean no work history. It means under 25. Also, that $40k is for your 50th percentile employed candidate, so half of the graduates who found work are getting less than $40k. Do the statistics indicate what the unemployment rate is for new IT grads? - Matt -- A polar bear is a rectangular bear after a coordinate transform. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: graduate programmers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 03:02:50PM +1100, Matthew Palmer wrote: On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 02:38:05PM +1100, O Plameras wrote: For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University and earn a Ph.D. Because that'll get our clever country moniker back -- people who aren't worth $25,000 a year doing advanced research. I fully appreciate your sarcasm but the Ph.D. stipend also enjoys a rather good tax situation (or it did at one stage, things may have changed) so is is equivalent to a bit more than it looks (but still not equivalent to having a real job). I don't have a problem with people being underpaid for research when they get to share in the results of that research. I do think that it's a bad deal doing a Ph.D. (having tried it and given up) not because of the pay, but because of the lack of things you can use the Ph.D. for afterwards... Australia really needs to pull finger when it comes to getting forward-looking research projects off the ground and I'm not saying that I have a guaranteed method for achieving that but looking at the position we are in right now, we just aren't making it happen. There aren't anywhere near enough Ph.D scholarships to cover the number of IT graduates who aren't worth any more than that on the open market. On the upside, though, at least if they're kept in a postgrad lab, they'll do less damage there than out in the real world exercising their skills. There's no shortage of: fast-talking executives who landed IT an manager role by playing a great game of golf; sales droids who promise the moon, collect their commission then scoot; strategic planners who invent ace buzzwords but have no concept of system design; empire building department heads who are brilliant at creating constant crisis to require a budget increase; and overstressed workers taking alternate doses of caffeine and alcohol. I'd go so far as to say that the real world can supply all the damage anyone is ever going to require and just a bit more besides. - Tel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iQIVAwUBQ/mZvcfOVl0KFTApAQIQxhAAjdjhNhjkrc3BHItqSU2bUftu8LyV4jRZ aHbBjUOfjHkjLJlrvYzPVw0OBWgbHXTegwkp289hOTiEwL2Ix8wnQuFJnsjktxSE NGFB6BpaEOi8ItyT2NK2/ppbVQ3Zxw98JS2EuncnTwpjI+Ok6oORT7Xjx/2faO4E BMKfydA2ZEoc8nViEujjnRtnRS04X+1WwiwwYtdna2SQNA/lYPbPzAyTyeV9TePq f+MyInsyvpcUP1HIwhWOzUb5Xgad7MNKKYhQuLBuu0LrAI0PJ6lXuNi/99pQQb8v rbch4hSDxGK2z8D3eYiQWyVqMfU+liaMpTJw4u65wGQm0m8fL5Br4iCf5PFLOl8T HkHCMOHeghXYaRgk003JfClBVODdZDo0r2wFy3RhMHZ5jOzPUr6ngnnXOdmkvF6K BxSLwG+L8e4LO7BTWZ33H2XGGihcgxfnyipkabG0435aQuJva66oJRejyXiinjJB zs0A/LxRcHnHXjkr6vrtIORClzFfS2ZassSIRH+GHLSBrujAn1SOL/2BDTMKAsN+ gVozNMIqozXS6lZyR3Jz/aSji98DWpKt2SurWQM8AVOo2THRa73o7eUDyRqo6OtL BtjIIZKgp0ZaIYgohj+o94QoZlbDJqNh6tBmx8Qud1GNv7VanvJukGAwi0+rpN1/ Ln//iQ7Hwyk= =K6J2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] Re: graduate programmers
On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 06:05:25PM +1100, O Plameras wrote: James Purser wrote: On Sun, 2006-02-19 at 17:32 +1100, O Plameras wrote: The point here is $25,000 for graduates as initial salary offer is low. A year-12 high school graduate begins at that salary level. Certainly, a Uni graduate is worth more than that. O Plameras Economics 101: A Graduate is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay them. Yes, we use economic indicators to decide on prices. We decide to buy stocks based on economic indicators. Yes, we decide to employ people and how much to pay for their salary based on some indicators, like Age, Experience, Academic Qualifications, and others. Between a year-12 and a Uni graduate you'd have to pay more for a Uni graduate. If you're talking about hiring the same individual when they've finished year 12, as opposed to when they've finished Uni, you're right. How often does that happen? To provide a wonderful counterexample to your statement, we've hired a 16 year old child prodigy at work for cutting code. He's very, very good at what we've got him doing. Worth what we pay him and more. He's certainly worth more than the average CompSci graduate. You'd be surprise to know that large IT companies go around Universities each year trying to woo new graduates. Companies try to find new employees at Universities. Film at 11! - Matt -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] Re: graduate programmers
On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 02:38:05PM +1100, O Plameras wrote: Terry Collins wrote: O Plameras wrote: This is the base salary graduates start with 15 years ago, in at least two Companies I know. So, graduates base salary now should be higher than this. 15 years is a lot of years in the IT industry. NOPE. Supply and demand. There is an enormous number of IT graduates these days, so IMO advertised starting salaries are generally down to what they were 15 years ago. I posted the $15-20K one as it was offered each year for a few years. What hasn't been mentioned yet is industry If you are in the pure IT side, then the best can get some spectacular salaries, but other industries tend not to have salaries too much above industry norm, so the $25-20K was a dogsbody in finance as a start, but some of those companies can reward well. This is less than a student rate, and much less than a graduate rate. For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University and earn a Ph.D. Because that'll get our clever country moniker back -- people who aren't worth $25,000 a year doing advanced research. There aren't anywhere near enough Ph.D scholarships to cover the number of IT graduates who aren't worth any more than that on the open market. On the upside, though, at least if they're kept in a postgrad lab, they'll do less damage there than out in the real world exercising their skills. - Matt -- Some people are like slinkies. They are fun and don't actually serve any real purpose, but they still make you smile when you push them down the stairs. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] Re: graduate programmers
Matthew Palmer wrote: On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 02:38:05PM +1100, O Plameras wrote: Terry Collins wrote: O Plameras wrote: This is the base salary graduates start with 15 years ago, in at least two Companies I know. So, graduates base salary now should be higher than this. 15 years is a lot of years in the IT industry. NOPE. Supply and demand. There is an enormous number of IT graduates these days, so IMO advertised starting salaries are generally down to what they were 15 years ago. I posted the $15-20K one as it was offered each year for a few years. What hasn't been mentioned yet is industry If you are in the pure IT side, then the best can get some spectacular salaries, but other industries tend not to have salaries too much above industry norm, so the $25-20K was a dogsbody in finance as a start, but some of those companies can reward well. This is less than a student rate, and much less than a graduate rate. For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University and earn a Ph.D. Because that'll get our clever country moniker back -- people who aren't worth $25,000 a year doing advanced research. There aren't anywhere near enough Ph.D scholarships to cover the number of IT graduates who aren't worth any more than that on the open market. On the upside, though, at least if they're kept in a postgrad lab, they'll do less damage there than out in the real world exercising their skills. You meant, here in Australia, not enough scholarships and/or assistanships. Universities are squeezed out of funds. So insufficient funds is the cause for lack of Ph.D. scholarship rather than the recognized need for them or lack of qualified and interested students. Those graduate students with these burning desires to pursue Ph.D and are not constrained by financial obligations like repayment of loans or mortgages go out to USA or Europe and stay there afterwards because there is less incentives here to hang around, I suppose. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] Re: graduate programmers
On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 08:14:07AM +1100, ashley maher wrote: Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? For your common-or-garden-variety graduate, probably no more than $30k -- they really don't know squat, and these days you can't even bet on them being a fast learner. They'll need lots of training and adult supervision (which makes them a net *loss* for a couple of months) unless you're giving them exactly the same cookie-cutter pseudo-work they spent three years copying off their classmates. Naturally, there are quite a number of graduates who exceed this base-level expectation by quite a lot, but you assess those people based on their Real Experience, not because they have a piece of paper. - Matt -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
