Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
What I've missed out on learning C and gtk+ at home is how to pronounce = and == (in my head while reading code). If you see int x = 1; would you say `assign the value of 1 to the integer x' or`int x assignment 1' ? or some such? It seems quite sensible to pronounce == as `equals'. ? Nick -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
What I've missed out on learning C and gtk+ at home is how to pronounce = and == (in my head while reading code). If you see int x = 1; would you say `assign the value of 1 to the integer x' or `int x assignment 1' ? or some such? It seems quite sensible to pronounce == as `equals'. I ain't a programmer at all but I reckon a simple 'is' makes for a decent summary of 'assign the value of' dave -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
This one time, at band camp, Nick Croft said: What I've missed out on learning C and gtk+ at home is how to pronounce = and == (in my head while reading code). = pronounced equals or assignment equals == pronounced equalsequals or is equal to If you see int x = 1; I'd say int x equals 1 It seems quite sensible to pronounce == as `equals'. If you were to write if (x == 1) I'd say if x equal to 1. -- jamesw Jaq what's wrong with the default? :) jdub It is poopie. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
On Mon, 14 May 2001, Jamie Wilkinson wrote: This one time, at band camp, Nick Croft said: What I've missed out on learning C and gtk+ at home is how to pronounce = and == (in my head while reading code). = pronounced equals or assignment equals == pronounced equalsequals or is equal to The great thing about the english language is that you can usually work it out from the context :). Although I do like the equals for = and equals equals for ==. Benno -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
Dave writes: I ain't a programmer at all but I reckon a simple 'is' makes for a decent summary of 'assign the value of' There be dragons there, matey! 'Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs', a highly regarded computer science textbook, doesn't introduce assignment until page 218, chapter three. A section deals with 'The Cost of Introducing Assignment', with a little detour into 'Sameness and change'. 'Set' is probably the go. Jamie -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Studying Programming
Hello, What does everyone here think of getting professional training in programming (and programming in general) vs self study ? I'm considering taking a 40h course or similar to learn how to program the right way and get help in the mean time. Who might offer such services ? I'm having difficulty finding companies that offer this, i've tried Spherion for example - there programming courses are pathetic. Thanks _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Secret Squirrel wrote: Hello, What does everyone here think of getting professional training in programming (and programming in general) vs self study ? I would definately recommend a degree course. Comp Sci at any big uni should do pretty well. Of course that is 3 or 4 years worth of study. I'm considering taking a 40h course or similar to learn how to program the right way and get help in the mean time. I really don't think you can learn how to program the right way in 40 hours. Of course there is a whole range of discussion about what exactly the righ way is :) (Which is why I prefer uni to skills courses, at uni you actually think about what is the right way) Who might offer such services ? I'm having difficulty finding companies that offer this, i've tried Spherion for example - there programming courses are pathetic. I personally wouldn't waste my money on there programming courses, I think books are great study/learning resources, not those dodgy Teach yourself language X in (24 hours | 21 days). I mean really good books :). Stoustrop for C++, Kernigan and Richie for C, Design Patterns for OOP, Knuth for algorithms, Mythical Man Month by Brooks for Soft Eng. Most of the O Rielly series are pretty good imho. Hope that helps, Benno (And yes most of the views here are generalised and I'm sure there will be plenty of Uni is a waste of time ppl out there too, I guess it is down to how you learn, personally I have learnt a hell of a lot at uni (andyou get to drink a lot of beer too :)) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
Secret Squirrel wrote: stuff snipped I'm considering taking a 40h course or similar to learn how to program the right way and get help in the mean time. Um, what exactly is the right way? When I am employing people I ask What have you done? Not what courses have you done? or what degrees do you have? Peter -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
Ben Leslie wrote: On Sun, 13 May 2001, peterw wrote: Secret Squirrel wrote: stuff snipped I'm considering taking a 40h course or similar to learn how to program the right way and get help in the mean time. Um, what exactly is the right way? When I am employing people I ask What have you done? Not what courses have you done? or what degrees do you have? Yeah but there is more to education to than just being employable. This I agree with. And so the question Why do you want programming trainning? needs to be answered. I think Eifel is cool, I'd like to learn about that or Christ I need a job to pay the rent For one thing you get a broader look at some of the different areas within comp. sci. (AI, OSes among others) which you are unlikely to see if you spend all your time coding for money. This I sorta agree with. If you are a professional systems builder you will become familiar with different OSes, techniques and research otherwise you won't be a professional systems builder for very long. There is nothing more frustrating(IMHO) then spending great time and effort looking at and learning about OSes, languages etc and then not being able to use them. Learning for learnings sake is all well and good and should be encouraged but ya gotta eat. Peter - who spends a lot of time trying to convince comp sci grads that it is not cool to write a business program as one if statement in C. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
Secret Squirrel wrote: Hmm that's interesting, you don't give a damn about courses, uni degrees ? So as long as they can get the work done, you're satisfied and you employ them ? M For me, the name of the game is success full delivery of systems and happy customers. So whatever it takes. Peter -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
Steve Cowlick wrote: On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 11:33:16PM +1000, peterw uttered: Peter - who spends a lot of time trying to convince comp sci grads that it is not cool to write a business program as one if statement in C. It may not be cool, but it sure is fun! :-) Argh -- Steve I'm a sysadmin because I couldn't beat a blind monkey in a coding contest. --Me -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
On Sun, May 13, 2001 at 07:25:11PM +1000, Secret Squirrel wrote: Hello, What does everyone here think of getting professional training in programming (and programming in general) vs self study ? I'm considering taking a 40h course or similar to learn how to program the right way and get help in the mean time. Who might offer such services ? I'm having difficulty finding companies that offer this, i've tried Spherion for example - there programming courses are pathetic. There are several introductory programming courses at Granville TAFE. A gentle introduction to C and Programming in a Linux environment---which is a mixture (mess) of various programming topics and languages. Featured language next semester will probably be Perl. Check http://slug.org.au/tafe2000.shtml for some out fo date woffle. Updating rsn. These courses won't teach you how to program but they might get you started. geoffrey -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Secret Squirrel wrote: What does everyone here think of getting professional training in programming (and programming in general) vs self study ? I don't think a professional development type course is worth it and a uni degree course sounds too much for what you're talking about, so how about something in between like a TAFE or CAE (college of advanced/further education) course. My dad did something similar years ago via correspondence from the Rockhampton CAE in Qld. Dave. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
On Sun, 13 May 2001, Ben Leslie wrote: I think books are great study/learning resources, not those dodgy Teach yourself language X in (24 hours | 21 days). I mean really good books :). Stoustrop for C++, Kernigan and Richie for C, Design Patterns for OOP, Knuth for algorithms, Mythical Man Month by Brooks for Soft Eng. I found _A_Book_on_C_ (Kelley/Pohl) to be quite good when i started. Alexander -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Studying Programming
It is now the central queensland Uni. http://www.cqu.edu.au/ Thats where I got my computing degree from. They are very big on external courses...might be something there worth doing? The TAFE idea was a good oneshould be something worth doing there also. What they try to drum into you at uni is that you should spend a lot of time on the planning stage of a program. You should write algorithims etc etc and really think about what you are trying to achieve before starting to code. I always believe that anyone can code..thats the easy bit, its in working out the solution to the problems thats the hard part. So maybe a little less haste and a little more thought and planning will give you the programming results you need. regards Alister -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dave Fitch Sent: Monday, 14 May 2001 9:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming On Sun, 13 May 2001, Secret Squirrel wrote: What does everyone here think of getting professional training in programming (and programming in general) vs self study ? I don't think a professional development type course is worth it and a uni degree course sounds too much for what you're talking about, so how about something in between like a TAFE or CAE (college of advanced/further education) course. My dad did something similar years ago via correspondence from the Rockhampton CAE in Qld. Dave. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
Mr. Squirrel, Best way to learn how to code is to sit down, think about a project that needs to be done, and do it in the language of your choice (after deciding on the suitability of that language for your task). If you're relatively bright, this is the *only* way to learn. ;) Code a few more projects... then come back to your first project and review the code and pick out the nasties and perhaps rewrite it.. perhaps in another language altogether or with a completely different structure. Uni will teach you methodology - not code.. and even so, comp sci at uni is a bit of a luxury, you can learn *almost* everything at home from books and your own development platform.. you will miss out on different approaches and the peer review process (i.e. other kids laughing at your code) though.. however with the OS model, especially working on public projects, you'll get plenty of input from other coders soon enough! ;) If you're considering uni for this, then consider a double degree like Electrical Engineering/Comp Sci... because you'll find out quite soon that manufacturing semiconductors in your bedroom doesn't work all that well.. not to mention that with Elec Eng, you should at least have a solid physics/chem background (and these too - at high levels - are not easy to learn without explanation).. So quite simply, learning to code at home is feasible, neurosurgery/photovoltaics development/biomed engineering/insert disciplines which require specialist equipment etc here aren't. Oh, and you'll learn to drink beer on campus too. //umar (who has gone back to uni part-time to do a hobby Economics/Accounting degree which he will never ever utilize in the workforce.. but hey, the environment is fun and it has nothing to do with what I actually do for a living! ;) Hello, What does everyone here think of getting professional training in programming (and programming in general) vs self study ? I'm considering taking a 40h course or similar to learn how to program the right way and get help in the mean time. Who might offer such services ? I'm having difficulty finding companies that offer this, i've tried Spherion for example - there programming courses are pathetic. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
the biggest problem with learning on your own is having no one to bounce problems off. You can look at something for a week and not see the answer, but see it immediately you try to explain it to another human being. The biggest problem I have with all computer issues, be they sysadmin or coding or whatever, is being on my own. Maybe others are different? David On Mon, 14 May 2001, Umar Goldeli wrote: Mr. Squirrel, Best way to learn how to code is to sit down, think about a project that needs to be done, and do it in the language of your choice (after deciding on the suitability of that language for your task). If you're relatively bright, this is the *only* way to learn. ;) Code a few more projects... then come back to your first project and review the code and pick out the nasties and perhaps rewrite it.. perhaps in another language altogether or with a completely different structure. Uni will teach you methodology - not code.. and even so, comp sci at uni is a bit of a luxury, you can learn *almost* everything at home from books and your own development platform.. you will miss out on different approaches and the peer review process (i.e. other kids laughing at your code) though.. however with the OS model, especially working on public projects, you'll get plenty of input from other coders soon enough! ;) If you're considering uni for this, then consider a double degree like Electrical Engineering/Comp Sci... because you'll find out quite soon that manufacturing semiconductors in your bedroom doesn't work all that well.. not to mention that with Elec Eng, you should at least have a solid physics/chem background (and these too - at high levels - are not easy to learn without explanation).. So quite simply, learning to code at home is feasible, neurosurgery/photovoltaics development/biomed engineering/insert disciplines which require specialist equipment etc here aren't. Oh, and you'll learn to drink beer on campus too. //umar (who has gone back to uni part-time to do a hobby Economics/Accounting degree which he will never ever utilize in the workforce.. but hey, the environment is fun and it has nothing to do with what I actually do for a living! ;) Hello, What does everyone here think of getting professional training in programming (and programming in general) vs self study ? I'm considering taking a 40h course or similar to learn how to program the right way and get help in the mean time. Who might offer such services ? I'm having difficulty finding companies that offer this, i've tried Spherion for example - there programming courses are pathetic. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:49:28AM +1000, David wrote: the biggest problem with learning on your own is having no one to bounce problems off. You can look at something for a week and not see the answer, but see it immediately you try to explain it to another human being. The biggest problem I have with all computer issues, be they sysadmin or coding or whatever, is being on my own. Maybe others are different? Ahh there's a nice trick I learned for this. I think it's something they used to do in tutorials at MIT but I never got around to trying it at UNSW. It's the classic thing you start explainging your problem to somone and then half way through it's like don;t worry I worked it out. MIT's solution to the problem was the following. Every computer Lab had a teddy bear sitting in one corner (substitue with penguins/daemons) where apropriate. If you were a student in the class and had a problem you had to go an explain it verbally to the teddy bear first, only then could you ask the tutor :) David On Mon, 14 May 2001, Umar Goldeli wrote: Mr. Squirrel, Best way to learn how to code is to sit down, think about a project that needs to be done, and do it in the language of your choice (after deciding on the suitability of that language for your task). If you're relatively bright, this is the *only* way to learn. ;) Code a few more projects... then come back to your first project and review the code and pick out the nasties and perhaps rewrite it.. perhaps in another language altogether or with a completely different structure. Uni will teach you methodology - not code.. and even so, comp sci at uni is a bit of a luxury, you can learn *almost* everything at home from books and your own development platform.. you will miss out on different approaches and the peer review process (i.e. other kids laughing at your code) though.. however with the OS model, especially working on public projects, you'll get plenty of input from other coders soon enough! ;) If you're considering uni for this, then consider a double degree like Electrical Engineering/Comp Sci... because you'll find out quite soon that manufacturing semiconductors in your bedroom doesn't work all that well.. not to mention that with Elec Eng, you should at least have a solid physics/chem background (and these too - at high levels - are not easy to learn without explanation).. So quite simply, learning to code at home is feasible, neurosurgery/photovoltaics development/biomed engineering/insert disciplines which require specialist equipment etc here aren't. Oh, and you'll learn to drink beer on campus too. //umar (who has gone back to uni part-time to do a hobby Economics/Accounting degree which he will never ever utilize in the workforce.. but hey, the environment is fun and it has nothing to do with what I actually do for a living! ;) Hello, What does everyone here think of getting professional training in programming (and programming in general) vs self study ? I'm considering taking a 40h course or similar to learn how to program the right way and get help in the mean time. Who might offer such services ? I'm having difficulty finding companies that offer this, i've tried Spherion for example - there programming courses are pathetic. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- John Ferlito Senior Engineer - Bulletproof Networks ph: +61 (0) 410 519 382 http://www.bulletproof.net.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
quote who=David the biggest problem with learning on your own is having no one to bounce problems off. You can look at something for a week and not see the answer, but see it immediately you try to explain it to another human being. That's why everyone should go to the Linuxfest this weekend, and more SLUG Codefests when we have them! Talk to Real Live Coders! Talk about Real Live Code! Drink Real Live Coke! Lots of opportunity to share code and bounce ideas around. - Jeff -- you misspelt 'world dominatrix' - James Wilkinson -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Studying Programming
On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 11:44:16AM +1000, John Ferlito wrote: On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:49:28AM +1000, David wrote: the biggest problem with learning on your own is having no one to bounce problems off. You can look at something for a week and not see the answer, . The biggest problem I have with all computer issues, be they sysadmin or coding or whatever, is being on my own. Maybe others are different? MIT's solution to the problem was the following. Every computer Lab had a teddy bear sitting in one corner (substitue with penguins/daemons) where apropriate. If you were a student in the class and had a problem you had to go an explain it verbally to the teddy bear first, only then could you ask the tutor :) Now thats a great idea! One takes the source for the Eliza program, rewrite it as a daemon that looks at your code as you write it (a bit like a paperclip). It makes suggestions by simply reading in what you write, rearranging it according to some simple C grammar rules and spits out something similar, prefaced with: What about trying this sugestion? OK you know code it will produce will be crap but its just a teddy bear :-) -- Q: Why do WASPs play golf ? A: So they can dress like pimps. Michael Lake, University of Technology, Sydney Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ph: 02 9514 1724 Fx: 02 9514 1628 Linux enthusiast, active caver and interested in anything technical. *** -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
