[RCSE] Icon 2
Icon 2 I never have won a contest... I never fly contests... There is nothing that I wish to contest. I fly for the pure fun of it and nothing less. Good toys are very rare... and time is short... Icon2 Phil Santa Fe RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
I was not aware that there was an Icon 2 poem contest. This is a good start. On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 6:51 AM, Phil Townsend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Icon 2 I never have won a contest... I never fly contests... There is nothing that I wish to contest. I fly for the pure fun of it and nothing less. Good toys are very rare... and time is short... Icon2 Phil Santa Fe RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new super ships, will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: SC Johnson To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [RCSE] Icon 2 OK all you sailplane junkies (Edgar, DP, you know who you are...) - there's been a lot of discussion about the new High End and some vague comparisons to the old Icon. Since Don has even stopped denying it, I thought its about time for some news about the new Icon 2 that Maple Leaf Design is developing. Its been in the works for over a year, and news has been leaking for a while. Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150 (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4 friendly pod and carbon boom. I have had the privilege of fondling the parts and pieces as the design was developed, and I can tell you that this plane is way-cool. The first prototypes of the Icon 2 are being tested as I type this, and the first production planes (mine - VBG) will be delivered just after the first of the year. I understand there's already a list. No - I don't have photos or drawings.and leave Don alone - he's busy working on my planes. Just get on the list. Whahooo... Steve Johnson
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
The line will ultimately be drawn by the competitors and where ever that may be, we don't yet know. Big, to a point, for my old eyes and still light enough to not destroy the winch lines is a balance I work on with unlimited ships like my Supra or AVA. So far line strengths above 250 lbs. are not required for my above mentioned birds. That is the line strength I have on my winch which is powered with a Wade build FLS motor. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: Darwin N. Barrie [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new super ships, will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: SC Johnson To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [RCSE] Icon 2 OK all you sailplane junkies (Edgar, DP, you know who you are...) - there's been a lot of discussion about the new High End and some vague comparisons to the old Icon. Since Don has even stopped denying it, I thought its about time for some news about the new Icon 2 that Maple Leaf Design is developing. Its been in the works for over a year, and news has been leaking for a while. Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150 (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4 friendly pod and carbon boom. I have had the privilege of fondling the parts and pieces as the design was developed, and I can tell you that this plane is way-cool. The first prototypes of the Icon 2 are being tested as I type this, and the first production planes (mine - VBG) will be delivered just after the first of the year. I understand there's already a list. No - I don't have photos or drawings.and leave Don alone - he's busy working on my planes. Just get on the list. Whahooo... Steve Johnson ---BeginMessage--- I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new "super ships," will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: SC Johnson To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [RCSE] Icon 2 OK all you sailplane junkies (Edgar, DP, you know who you are...) - there's been a lot of discussion about the new High Endand some vague comparisons to the "old" Icon. Since Don has even stopped denying it, I thought its about time for some news about the new Icon 2 that Maple Leaf Design is developing. Its been in the works for over a year, and news has been leaking for a while. Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150" (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4friendlypod and carbon boom. I have had theprivilegeoffondlingthe parts and pieces as the design was developed, and I can tell you that this plane is way-cool. The first prototypes of the Icon 2 are being tested as I type this, and the first production planes (mine - VBG) will be delivered just after the first of the year. I understand there's already a list. No - I don't have photos or drawings.and leave Don alone - he's busy working on my planes. Just get on the list. Whahooo... Steve Johnson ---End Message---
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Either say that you break the line, you fly it. Or everyone goes to F3b spec winches and everyone provides their own launching equipment. Darwin N. Barrie wrote: I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new super ships, will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
I like that idea of F3B winches. Wanna get a launch on steroids, try mono. The problem with break the line you fly it, is that sometimes the line is the fault, not the pilot. But many of todays planes can easily break braided line if dialed in correctly, or if someone launches incorrectly (all over the place). Mike Lachowski wrote: Either say that you break the line, you fly it. Or everyone goes to F3b spec winches and everyone provides their own launching equipment. Darwin N. Barrie wrote: I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new super ships, will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
no pun intended... right? Darwin N. Barrie wrote: Where do we draw the line? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Don't change the line Learn how to launch If you go big and break the line!! fly it out!! You launch on the same equipment that everyone else is using, no need to change equipment for the select few Learn to launch and besides who says bigger is better(-: Airbus is sure having a tough time. smokinjoe - Original Message - From: Darwin N. Barriemailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.commailto:soaring@airage.com ; SC Johnsonmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Icon 2 I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new super ships, will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: SC Johnsonmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.commailto:soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [RCSE] Icon 2 OK all you sailplane junkies (Edgar, DP, you know who you are...) - there's been a lot of discussion about the new High End and some vague comparisons to the old Icon. Since Don has even stopped denying it, I thought its about time for some news about the new Icon 2 that Maple Leaf Design is developing. Its been in the works for over a year, and news has been leaking for a while. Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150 (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4 friendly pod and carbon boom. I have had the privilege of fondling the parts and pieces as the design was developed, and I can tell you that this plane is way-cool. The first prototypes of the Icon 2 are being tested as I type this, and the first production planes (mine - VBG) will be delivered just after the first of the year. I understand there's already a list. No - I don't have photos or drawings.and leave Don alone - he's busy working on my planes. Just get on the list. Whahooo... Steve Johnson
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
In a message dated 12/20/2007 8:48:45 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new super ships, will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ It could be that the wing area is not more than the Sharon, just a higher aspect ratio, and that it won't generate more lift, but will just have less drag and be more efficient. Bill Wingstedt **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
- Original Message From: Darwin N. Barrie [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant == I wonder about this too. The Pike Perfect is the current WC plane and the current Nats champ, at a bit over 140, and has apparently set a new benchmark that eclipses the 132 planes, which in turn pushed out the 3-meter (118) planes. It's all too easy to break the line with a PP, and line breaks will presumably be even more likely with 150 planes that have larger wing areas and can generate more pull. The 2-man tow setup puts a practical limit on F3J, but apparently that limit is not fully compatible with the standard U.S. winch setup; that is, it seems that the F3J scheme can launch bigger planes than our typical winches like to handle. One imagines a nightmare scenario where the planes keep getting bigger, and eventually as clubs need to replace their launch gear, they'll turn to super-power Injoy or similar winches, and the cycle will repeat, and finally we'll be flying models 40% of full-scale like the gas-power boys.
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
You guys really aren't looking at the international trends that are driving the size wars. These planes are designed as the ultimate F3J plane. In F3J, the launch power is as much as you can use, figuring you higher some offensive lineman to tow. If F3J were to switch to using F3b winches, the launch power is regulated. F3b has evolved to smaller planes, that launch higher in a no wind, or downwind launch situation. If F3J planes were to go to a regulated launching system, the planes would get smaller, in order to launch higher faster in weak launch conditions. So the planes will continue to grow as long as there are large towers with a lot of power to launch them. Bigger planes are more efficient, so If you can launch them, you are at an advantage. Planes will grow unless we regulate launching power. BTW We don't have a winch power problem we have a winch line problem. We use crappy/heavy braided line rather than high performance Mono filament spectra. The mono is temperamental, so I don't recommend switching out club winch lines, but just understand the problem. If F3J switches to F3b style regulated winches, the planes will come back down in size, or at least stop growing. On Dec 20, 2007 9:32 AM, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Darwin N. Barrie [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant == I wonder about this too. The Pike Perfect is the current WC plane and the current Nats champ, at a bit over 140, and has apparently set a new benchmark that eclipses the 132 planes, which in turn pushed out the 3-meter (118) planes. It's all too easy to break the line with a PP, and line breaks will presumably be even more likely with 150 planes that have larger wing areas and can generate more pull. The 2-man tow setup puts a practical limit on F3J, but apparently that limit is not fully compatible with the standard U.S. winch setup; that is, it seems that the F3J scheme can launch bigger planes than our typical winches like to handle. One imagines a nightmare scenario where the planes keep getting bigger, and eventually as clubs need to replace their launch gear, they'll turn to super-power Injoy or similar winches, and the cycle will repeat, and finally we'll be flying models 40% of full-scale like the gas-power boys. -- David Klein Graduate Research Student Department of Structural Engineering Jacobs School of Engineering University of California San Diego
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Go to a weaker winch motor. If the winch motor can't break the line, then the motor stops turning. For anyone who has used a F3b winch, you know what happens. The F3b winch motors will only draw roughly 500 Amps stalled while a Ford winch will go to 1000 amps or more. Then you live with the lower input power. tony estep wrote: The 2-man tow setup puts a practical limit on F3J, but apparently that limit is not fully compatible with the standard U.S. winch setup; that is, it seems that the F3J scheme can launch bigger planes than our typical winches like to handle. One imagines a nightmare scenario where the planes keep getting bigger, and eventually as clubs need to replace their launch gear, they'll turn to super-power Injoy or similar winches, and the cycle will repeat, and finally we'll be flying models 40% of full-scale like the gas-power boys. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
I got the perfect solution It appears that there will be a bunch of out-of-work professional baseball players who have bulked up on steroids.. They would be the ideal candidates to provide F3J hand tows... As of right now I don't know of any drug restrictions allowing the average hand-tower to become super-human. Then, just maybe, we can fly that 200 F3J What a concept! Happy Holidays all.. Kurt I just had to say that!!! David Klein wrote: You guys really aren't looking at the international trends that are driving the size wars. These planes are designed as the ultimate F3J plane. In F3J, the launch power is as much as you can use, figuring you higher some offensive lineman to tow. If F3J were to switch to using F3b winches, the launch power is regulated. F3b has evolved to smaller planes, that launch higher in a no wind, or downwind launch situation. If F3J planes were to go to a regulated launching system, the planes would get smaller, in order to launch higher faster in weak launch conditions. So the planes will continue to grow as long as there are large towers with a lot of power to launch them. Bigger planes are more efficient, so If you can launch them, you are at an advantage. Planes will grow unless we regulate launching power. BTW We don't have a winch power problem we have a winch line problem. We use crappy/heavy braided line rather than high performance Mono filament spectra. The mono is temperamental, so I don't recommend switching out club winch lines, but just understand the problem. If F3J switches to F3b style regulated winches, the planes will come back down in size, or at least stop growing. On Dec 20, 2007 9:32 AM, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Darwin N. Barrie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ...My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant == I wonder about this too. The Pike Perfect is the current WC plane and the current Nats champ, at a bit over 140, and has apparently set a new benchmark that eclipses the 132 planes, which in turn pushed out the 3-meter (118) planes. It's all too easy to break the line with a PP, and line breaks will presumably be even more likely with 150 planes that have larger wing areas and can generate more pull. The 2-man tow setup puts a practical limit on F3J, but apparently that limit is not fully compatible with the standard U.S. winch setup; that is, it seems that the F3J scheme can launch bigger planes than our typical winches like to handle. One imagines a nightmare scenario where the planes keep getting bigger, and eventually as clubs need to replace their launch gear, they'll turn to super-power Injoy or similar winches, and the cycle will repeat, and finally we'll be flying models 40% of full-scale like the gas-power boys. -- David Klein Graduate Research Student Department of Structural Engineering Jacobs School of Engineering University of California San Diego !DSPAM:476aa8cc332856226910221! -- Kurt W. Zimmerman Database Administrator www.RegionalHelpWanted.com,Inc. - Long Name. Amazing Results! - 2007 New York Technology Fast 50 Award - WEDDLE's 2004, 2005 User's Choice Award Winner www.cupid.com www.purplepages.com One Civic Center Plaza, Suite 506 Poughkeepsie, NY 12601 [EMAIL PROTECTED] p: 845.471.5200 x170 f: 845.485.8398 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Icon 2
Why not just get rid of the pulley system and go to a single man tow? Or maybe, the pilot should run to launch the plane like a kite`while the plane is on autopilot??? Just creative suggestions! Chris Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Icon 2 From: Mike Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, December 20, 2007 9:45 am To: tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Go to a weaker winch motor. If the winch motor can't break the line, then the motor stops turning. For anyone who has used a F3b winch, you know what happens. The F3b winch motors will only draw roughly 500 Amps stalled while a Ford winch will go to 1000 amps or more. Then you live with the lower input power. tony estep wrote: The 2-man tow setup puts a practical limit on F3J, but apparently that limit is not fully compatible with the standard U.S. winch setup; that is, it seems that the F3J scheme can launch bigger planes than our typical winches like to handle. One imagines a nightmare scenario where the planes keep getting bigger, and eventually as clubs need to replace their launch gear, they'll turn to super-power Injoy or similar winches, and the cycle will repeat, and finally we'll be flying models 40% of full-scale like the gas-power boys. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Who cares what is driving the size wars? F3J is a very miniscule part of the soaring scene is the US. Most of the people buy the Perfects, High Ends and the new Icons are buying them to compete in TD contests and not F3J. So the problem exists when they show up at a contest and the lines start breaking. It is more than the fly it out mentality, it is contest management. When the line(s) break they need to be fixed. That is down time. It is not fair to the contestants and the contest staff. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ On Dec 20, 2007, at 10:38 AM, David Klein wrote: You guys really aren't looking at the international trends that are driving the size wars. These planes are designed as the ultimate F3J plane. In F3J, the launch power is as much as you can use, figuring you higher some offensive lineman to tow. If F3J were to switch to using F3b winches, the launch power is regulated. F3b has evolved to smaller planes, that launch higher in a no wind, or downwind launch situation. If F3J planes were to go to a regulated launching system, the planes would get smaller, in order to launch higher faster in weak launch conditions. So the planes will continue to grow as long as there are large towers with a lot of power to launch them. Bigger planes are more efficient, so If you can launch them, you are at an advantage. Planes will grow unless we regulate launching power. BTW We don't have a winch power problem we have a winch line problem. We use crappy/heavy braided line rather than high performance Mono filament spectra. The mono is temperamental, so I don't recommend switching out club winch lines, but just understand the problem. If F3J switches to F3b style regulated winches, the planes will come back down in size, or at least stop growing. On Dec 20, 2007 9:32 AM, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Darwin N. Barrie [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant == I wonder about this too. The Pike Perfect is the current WC plane and the current Nats champ, at a bit over 140, and has apparently set a new benchmark that eclipses the 132 planes, which in turn pushed out the 3-meter (118) planes. It's all too easy to break the line with a PP, and line breaks will presumably be even more likely with 150 planes that have larger wing areas and can generate more pull. The 2-man tow setup puts a practical limit on F3J, but apparently that limit is not fully compatible with the standard U.S. winch setup; that is, it seems that the F3J scheme can launch bigger planes than our typical winches like to handle. One imagines a nightmare scenario where the planes keep getting bigger, and eventually as clubs need to replace their launch gear, they'll turn to super-power Injoy or similar winches, and the cycle will repeat, and finally we'll be flying models 40% of full-scale like the gas- power boys. -- David Klein Graduate Research Student Department of Structural Engineering Jacobs School of Engineering University of California San Diego
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Come on Joe, we've been saying this for years and it hasn't worked. See my other post for the direct issues. Darwin On Dec 20, 2007, at 9:40 AM, Joe Rodriguez wrote: Don't change the line Learn how to launch If you go big and break the line!! fly it out!! You launch on the same equipment that everyone else is using, no need to change equipment for the select few Learn to launch and besides who says bigger is better(-: Airbus is sure having a tough time. smokinjoe - Original Message - From: Darwin N. Barrie To: soaring@airage.com ; SC Johnson Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Icon 2 I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new super ships, will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: SC Johnson To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [RCSE] Icon 2 OK all you sailplane junkies (Edgar, DP, you know who you are...) - there's been a lot of discussion about the new High End and some vague comparisons to the old Icon. Since Don has even stopped denying it, I thought its about time for some news about the new Icon 2 that Maple Leaf Design is developing. Its been in the works for over a year, and news has been leaking for a while. Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150 (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4 friendly pod and carbon boom. I have had the privilege of fondling the parts and pieces as the design was developed, and I can tell you that this plane is way-cool. The first prototypes of the Icon 2 are being tested as I type this, and the first production planes (mine - VBG) will be delivered just after the first of the year. I understand there's already a list. No - I don't have photos or drawings.and leave Don alone - he's busy working on my planes. Just get on the list. Whahooo... Steve Johnson
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
There is another solution for us CD's although it might initially reduce contest attendance. Add a Unlimited to 130 (or whatever) wingspan limit to your contest rules. If you want your contest to proceed with fewer line break interruptions, keep the battery power from dying at the end of the day and preserve your winch motors you can simply start limiting the planes that you will accept in the contest. If this became routine there would probably be a new rule (or modification) to the AMA Competition rules. Save the big planes for fun-fly or the F3J route. Something will have to be done eventually because growth to these huge planes isn't sustainable indefinitely even as the technology to produce them advances. As we use bigger winches and stronger line full scale planes will be enterable in contests. Oops, I guess in unlimited that is technically possible now! -I suspect that authorities having jurisdiction might have some thoughts on that matter. Rick PS I fly a Perfect but 2 meter is lots more fun. At 01:06 PM 12/20/2007, Darwin N. Barrie wrote: Who cares what is driving the size wars? F3J is a very miniscule part of the soaring scene is the US. Most of the people buy the Perfects, High Ends and the new Icons are buying them to compete in TD contests and not F3J. So the problem exists when they show up at a contest and the lines start breaking. It is more than the fly it out mentality, it is contest management. When the line(s) break they need to be fixed. That is down time. It is not fair to the contestants and the contest staff. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ On Dec 20, 2007, at 10:38 AM, David Klein wrote: You guys really aren't looking at the international trends that are driving the size wars. These planes are designed as the ultimate F3J plane. In F3J, the launch power is as much as you can use, figuring you higher some offensive lineman to tow. If F3J were to switch to using F3b winches, the launch power is regulated. F3b has evolved to smaller planes, that launch higher in a no wind, or downwind launch situation. If F3J planes were to go to a regulated launching system, the planes would get smaller, in order to launch higher faster in weak launch conditions. So the planes will continue to grow as long as there are large towers with a lot of power to launch them. Bigger planes are more efficient, so If you can launch them, you are at an advantage. Planes will grow unless we regulate launching power. BTW We don't have a winch power problem we have a winch line problem. We use crappy/heavy braided line rather than high performance Mono filament spectra. The mono is temperamental, so I don't recommend switching out club winch lines, but just understand the problem. If F3J switches to F3b style regulated winches, the planes will come back down in size, or at least stop growing. On Dec 20, 2007 9:32 AM, tony estep mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Darwin N. Barrie mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant == I wonder about this too. The Pike Perfect is the current WC plane and the current Nats champ, at a bit over 140, and has apparently set a new benchmark that eclipses the 132 planes, which in turn pushed out the 3-meter (118) planes. It's all too easy to break the line with a PP, and line breaks will presumably be even more likely with 150 planes that have larger wing areas and can generate more pull. The 2-man tow setup puts a practical limit on F3J, but apparently that limit is not fully compatible with the standard U.S. winch setup; that is, it seems that the F3J scheme can launch bigger planes than our typical winches like to handle. One imagines a nightmare scenario where the planes keep getting bigger, and eventually as clubs need to replace their launch gear, they'll turn to super-power Injoy or similar winches, and the cycle will repeat, and finally we'll be flying models 40% of full-scale like the gas-power boys. -- David Klein Graduate Research Student Department of Structural Engineering Jacobs School of Engineering University of California San Diego
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
This thread is going ?? ,, RCSE is about American TD pilots buying and using F3J F3X sailplanes flying American TD contests (3, 5, 7 tasks) and breaking American launch equipment. If they (RCSE Guys) want to maximize a American TD launch they should use a model designed for that task OR learn to launch a F3J model on American TD launch equipment. Contest organizers should not modify there equipment to accommodate Pilots, Pilots should modify there equipment and technique to maximize the contest organizers equipment and rules. If you break the line cause your pushing the limit's then suffer the consequence of your (Pilot) decision. Some guys can not see past there landing skag they will continue to search for the silver bullet instead of learning to launch, learning to land and learning to maximize there models. Man I need sell more 72mhz stuff smokinjoe
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
I guess everyone forgot how to use the FOOT PEDAL. As soon as you throw in a little wood trophy, everyone forgets. Learn to read your plane on launch. Dave Hauch www.rc-builds.com
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Spectra isn't a very good launcing line Dave. There is no give in it, and lots of planes would pop off. There is no energy that can be gained from it. Limit the power and put mono on. No more power problems. Just $$ problems. David Klein wrote: You guys really aren't looking at the international trends that are driving the size wars. These planes are designed as the ultimate F3J plane. In F3J, the launch power is as much as you can use, figuring you higher some offensive lineman to tow. If F3J were to switch to using F3b winches, the launch power is regulated. F3b has evolved to smaller planes, that launch higher in a no wind, or downwind launch situation. If F3J planes were to go to a regulated launching system, the planes would get smaller, in order to launch higher faster in weak launch conditions. So the planes will continue to grow as long as there are large towers with a lot of power to launch them. Bigger planes are more efficient, so If you can launch them, you are at an advantage. Planes will grow unless we regulate launching power. BTW We don't have a winch power problem we have a winch line problem. We use crappy/heavy braided line rather than high performance Mono filament spectra. The mono is temperamental, so I don't recommend switching out club winch lines, but just understand the problem. If F3J switches to F3b style regulated winches, the planes will come back down in size, or at least stop growing. On Dec 20, 2007 9:32 AM, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Darwin N. Barrie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ...My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant == I wonder about this too. The Pike Perfect is the current WC plane and the current Nats champ, at a bit over 140, and has apparently set a new benchmark that eclipses the 132 planes, which in turn pushed out the 3-meter (118) planes. It's all too easy to break the line with a PP, and line breaks will presumably be even more likely with 150 planes that have larger wing areas and can generate more pull. The 2-man tow setup puts a practical limit on F3J, but apparently that limit is not fully compatible with the standard U.S. winch setup; that is, it seems that the F3J scheme can launch bigger planes than our typical winches like to handle. One imagines a nightmare scenario where the planes keep getting bigger, and eventually as clubs need to replace their launch gear, they'll turn to super-power Injoy or similar winches, and the cycle will repeat, and finally we'll be flying models 40% of full-scale like the gas-power boys. -- David Klein Graduate Research Student Department of Structural Engineering Jacobs School of Engineering University of California San Diego -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
I kinda disagree. Were not really launching on the same line everyones using certainly by the end of a contest. Specifically after the first bunch of launches, yes the winch frame and motor is the same constant but the lines at big events tend to get trashed from abrasions. This happens especially when were launching crosswind and downwind when its too costly of time to switch winches into the wind.So, as a result, the bigger the plane the more carefull you have to launch so as to not break the line from previous line abuse. Im letting a large contest secret out of the bag here in this statement, but I generally fly a smaller area plane at big events when were using braided line and were not able to check the line before a flight. So that way I know I can take advantage of launch height when others cant push hard on the launch. Plus, one by one I watch others with big planes break lines and take score hits that drop them out of the running when in contest with no throw away rounds. Again, FAI events dont penalize your flight because of a broken line. The lines are your own and you can use what you want in strength, and check and test lines every flight if you wish. A broken line offers you a relaunch in a working time window. Seems more fair. You want the outcome of the event to be decided in the air afterall! Richard - Original Message - From: Joe Rodriguez To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Icon 2 Don't change the line Learn how to launch If you go big and break the line!! fly it out!! You launch on the same equipment that everyone else is using, no need to change equipment for the select few Learn to launch and besides who says bigger is better(-: Airbus is sure having a tough time. smokinjoe - Original Message - From: Darwin N. Barrie To: soaring@airage.com ; SC Johnson Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Icon 2 I'm sure this will be a very dynamic plane and competitive with the Euro models. My concern is the launching equipment. With the current crop of moldies, line breaks and winch bogging and ultimate failure are becoming more prevelant. Heavy enough line for these new super ships, will be a burden for the lighter planes. Yes, I've CD'd lots of contests and a few big ones. We've tried some heavy line and it is great for the heavier planes but the lighter planes and 2 meters have a helluva time overcoming the line drag and weight. Where do we draw the line? Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: SC Johnson To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:08 AM Subject: [RCSE] Icon 2 OK all you sailplane junkies (Edgar, DP, you know who you are...) - there's been a lot of discussion about the new High End and some vague comparisons to the old Icon. Since Don has even stopped denying it, I thought its about time for some news about the new Icon 2 that Maple Leaf Design is developing. Its been in the works for over a year, and news has been leaking for a while. Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150 (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4 friendly pod and carbon boom. I have had the privilege of fondling the parts and pieces as the design was developed, and I can tell you that this plane is way-cool. The first prototypes of the Icon 2 are being tested as I type this, and the first production planes (mine - VBG) will be delivered just after the first of the year. I understand there's already a list. No - I don't have photos or drawings.and leave Don alone - he's busy working on my planes. Just get on the list. Whahooo... Steve Johnson
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Well Craig there is a lot of information and commentary in your message. If I care to comment. It's too bad for Don that he is in a state that is forcing illegal immigrants, (low paid), out of the state or the unlikely, back to the country they came from. If the US Government would get off their a$$ and create an immigration policy every business in America would at least have a level playing field in regards to employment costs. (And if you donate enough $$ your business could benefit by being on the best part of the level field.) Protection of the dollar starts by having a strong fiscal policy and having trade protection against dangerous and inferior products that Americans cannot seem to buy enough of. Seems like the government and many citizens are just living for today and buying everything that they can. Fun for short term, but now we are paying the price, thus making our imported toys too expensive. I know many ICON fliers none of them fit in the prissy category. Perhaps California is living up to it's reputation. ;-) Mmmm Pumpkin Pie... Do you make your own crust? Flame suit? You should just try a couple of Ove Gloves now with silicone grips, very coool. :-) Craig I am almost certain you did not attain level 3 at age 10, so, eat your heart out man, good for you. But does she cook and clean? :-) Just be careful on what you wish for. :-) I guess I see the reason for still being at Level 3. Gee, DP manages to attain high RC soaring status and to have a GF, now that's cool. You need to ask him how he does it. :-))) Of course now that I think of it maybe he is just researching names for his next sailplane. Steve Meyer At 01:12 AM 12/19/2007, Craig Allen wrote: Maybe Don will do like the European manufactures do and have a lower price for domestic sales and another higher price for export... Then maybe some of us working stiffs could afford an Icon2... Due to the low low low dollar, all of America is almost free for the taking (Dam Bush) !!! A Canadian Loon is worth more than a Dollar! If In God We Trust were true.. God would never let a loony Bird be worth more than a dollar !!! :- My only knock on the Icon was who flew it... A little too prissy for my taste.. U know who U are!!! :-) hehe Since I'm baking my killer home made pumpkin pie (From scratch) I have my flame suit on :- Craig... LSF 3 and holding for 36 years... Hell, I just reralized thats over 10 years longer than my current girlfriend is old:- LoL... I'm the luckiest man in the WORLD :-) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Icon 2
Key word ILLEGAL NOT an immigrant Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:49:57 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Icon 2 CC: soaring@airage.com Well Craig there is a lot of information and commentary in your message. If I care to comment. It's too bad for Don that he is in a state that is forcing illegal immigrants, (low paid), out of the state or the unlikely, back to the country they came from. If the US Government would get off their a$$ and create an immigration policy every business in America would at least have a level playing field in regards to employment costs. (And if you donate enough $$ your business could benefit by being on the best part of the level field.) Protection of the dollar starts by having a strong fiscal policy and having trade protection against dangerous and inferior products that Americans cannot seem to buy enough of. Seems like the government and many citizens are just living for today and buying everything that they can. Fun for short term, but now we are paying the price, thus making our imported toys too expensive. I know many ICON fliers none of them fit in the prissy category. Perhaps California is living up to it's reputation. ;-) Mmmm Pumpkin Pie... Do you make your own crust? Flame suit? You should just try a couple of Ove Gloves now with silicone grips, very coool. :-) Craig I am almost certain you did not attain level 3 at age 10, so, eat your heart out man, good for you. But does she cook and clean? :-) Just be careful on what you wish for. :-) I guess I see the reason for still being at Level 3. Gee, DP manages to attain high RC soaring status and to have a GF, now that's cool. You need to ask him how he does it. :-))) Of course now that I think of it maybe he is just researching names for his next sailplane. Steve Meyer At 01:12 AM 12/19/2007, Craig Allen wrote: Maybe Don will do like the European manufactures do and have a lower price for domestic sales and another higher price for export... Then maybe some of us working stiffs could afford an Icon2... Due to the low low low dollar, all of America is almost free for the taking (Dam Bush) !!! A Canadian Loon is worth more than a Dollar! If In God We Trust were true.. God would never let a loony Bird be worth more than a dollar !!! :- My only knock on the Icon was who flew it... A little too prissy for my taste.. U know who U are!!! :-) hehe Since I'm baking my killer home made pumpkin pie (From scratch) I have my flame suit on :- Craig... LSF 3 and holding for 36 years... Hell, I just reralized thats over 10 years longer than my current girlfriend is old:- LoL... I'm the luckiest man in the WORLD :-) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text formatRCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150 (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4 friendly pod and carbon boom. Just for the record, I really didn't design the Icon 2. I was more of a consultant. Don Peters and Phil Pearson have been doing all the detail design work. MD RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Did they design a supply of football players to launch this thing in F3J? I imagine anyone less than 300 lbs is going to be lofted, with that kind of span.Just be sure to let go before you're 10 feet off the ground. someone wrote: Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150 (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4 friendly pod and carbon boom. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Icon 2
Maybe Don will do like the European manufactures do and have a lower price for domestic sales and another higher price for export... Then maybe some of us working stiffs could afford an Icon2... Due to the low low low dollar, all of America is almost free for the taking (Dam Bush) !!! A Canadian Loon is worth more than a Dollar! If In God We Trust were true.. God would never let a loony Bird be worth more than a dollar !!! :- My only knock on the Icon was who flew it... A little too prissy for my taste.. U know who U are!!! :-) hehe Since I'm baking my killer home made pumpkin pie (From scratch) I have my flame suit on :- Craig... LSF 3 and holding for 36 years... Hell, I just reralized thats over 10 years longer than my current girlfriend is old:- LoL... I'm the luckiest man in the WORLD :-)
[RCSE] Icon 2
OK all you sailplane junkies (Edgar, DP, you know who you are...) - there's been a lot of discussion about the new High End and some vague comparisons to the old Icon. Since Don has even stopped denying it, I thought its about time for some news about the new Icon 2 that Maple Leaf Design is developing. Its been in the works for over a year, and news has been leaking for a while. Get in line folks - this is gonna be a biggy, both literally and figuratively. Designed by the intrepid Dr. Mark Drela, this new high aspect ratio F3J/ Thermal Duration plane has a wing span of 150 (3.81 m) and a VERY slender 2.4 friendly pod and carbon boom. I have had the privilege of fondling the parts and pieces as the design was developed, and I can tell you that this plane is way-cool. The first prototypes of the Icon 2 are being tested as I type this, and the first production planes (mine - VBG) will be delivered just after the first of the year. I understand there's already a list. No - I don't have photos or drawings.and leave Don alone - he's busy working on my planes. Just get on the list. Whahooo... Steve Johnson
