Owner refusal
I just coming from a church project where they added an 8 x 16 wooden canopy at the main entry. The project super (and also church member) has adamantly refused to install sprinklers even though they are required. I have told him that they are needed by Code, buy he remains defiant. I assume that the AHJ would pick up on it during final inspection, but can't count on it. My plan is to write a letter to the church (my client) stating that protection is required by Code and is my best advice, but if they choose not to, I am not responsible for the consequences. How have others handled similar situations? The inspection for CO is schedules for Friday. Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
A quick little heads up call to the AHJ/Inspector before the inspection does wonders for situations like that. Thanks, Eric Tysinger CET NICET III - 108988 Designer Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. 4370 Motorsport Drive Concord, NC 28027 p: (704)782-3032 x1751 f: (704)795-6838 C: (239)633-9703 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - FPDC Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Owner refusal I just coming from a church project where they added an 8 x 16 wooden canopy at the main entry. The project super (and also church member) has adamantly refused to install sprinklers even though they are required. I have told him that they are needed by Code, buy he remains defiant. I assume that the AHJ would pick up on it during final inspection, but can't count on it. My plan is to write a letter to the church (my client) stating that protection is required by Code and is my best advice, but if they choose not to, I am not responsible for the consequences. How have others handled similar situations? The inspection for CO is schedules for Friday. Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
Todd: Have had to do this at least three or four times over the years. A disclaimer letter at least covers your butt, but a call to the AHJ gets results - I recommend both.The reason we would normally NOT rat out a client is the chance of losing future work; if said client is adamant about putting you at risk of some future liability, they're not really worth keeping in the long run. But be absolutely sure that you're correct before calling in the cavalry, as that can be REALLY embarrassing if they don't back you up. A discrete call and run-through with the AHJ isn't a bad idea in that context ... Steve L. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - FPDC Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 7:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Owner refusal I just coming from a church project where they added an 8 x 16 wooden canopy at the main entry. The project super (and also church member) has adamantly refused to install sprinklers even though they are required. I have told him that they are needed by Code, buy he remains defiant. I assume that the AHJ would pick up on it during final inspection, but can't count on it. My plan is to write a letter to the church (my client) stating that protection is required by Code and is my best advice, but if they choose not to, I am not responsible for the consequences. How have others handled similar situations? The inspection for CO is schedules for Friday. Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
I always let the heavyweights battle it out. Let the owner know that if they cannot get, in writing, approval from the AHJ to deviate from 13, then you cannot provide the paperwork stating the system is installed in compliance with 13. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 9:35 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Owner refusal Todd: Have had to do this at least three or four times over the years. A disclaimer letter at least covers your butt, but a call to the AHJ gets results - I recommend both.The reason we would normally NOT rat out a client is the chance of losing future work; if said client is adamant about putting you at risk of some future liability, they're not really worth keeping in the long run. But be absolutely sure that you're correct before calling in the cavalry, as that can be REALLY embarrassing if they don't back you up. A discrete call and run-through with the AHJ isn't a bad idea in that context ... Steve L. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - FPDC Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 7:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Owner refusal I just coming from a church project where they added an 8 x 16 wooden canopy at the main entry. The project super (and also church member) has adamantly refused to install sprinklers even though they are required. I have told him that they are needed by Code, buy he remains defiant. I assume that the AHJ would pick up on it during final inspection, but can't count on it. My plan is to write a letter to the church (my client) stating that protection is required by Code and is my best advice, but if they choose not to, I am not responsible for the consequences. How have others handled similar situations? The inspection for CO is schedules for Friday. Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3177 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
I'd say the letter is the first step- to the pastor or building committee chair, someone OTHER THAN the supt refusing the work. Note that they'll be ripping open the work to install sprinklers inside it if relevant to the construction type and materials. Note it is a code requirement and required for life safety as well as property protection. Prolly good to bring up the N word, N E G L I G E N C E if anyone is ever hurt, since they've been advised they are ignoring the code. Possibly better to add this verbally when telling them about the letter, either before you send (possibly negating the reason for it if they cave) or as a follow up to confirm it was received, understood, and then mention the downside- added cost and/or Negligence. You'll prolly sound badge-heavy if you put Negligence in the letter, although it depends on your perception of the client. Noting that no A Certificate could be turned over would be sufficient hammer- hopefully. Your call to the AHJ- fine line to walk. If you know em, have a rapport with em, make the call. If you don't know em from Adam, he may be best friends with the supt and you've shot yourself in the foot. We got a call from a strip center owner who we've worked for off and on over the years. Seems the pump and tank were abandoned 10 years ago just before he bought the place, and a new waterline was run into the back of the building. However, no BFPs were installed, WFS were built but not wired, and the service was never switched over. Yes, 100,000 SF of dumpy strip center was left unprotected for a decade. Yes, in the state that was first with the IRC mandate, evidently no one in Harrisburg has seen NFPA 25. Anyway, it came to light when a competitor went in to move heads for a new tenant, and the system was off. In addition to calling the Owner, he called the BCO (AHJ) who gave the Owner 48 hrs to cease operating the center. A little tough with a dozen stores in operation! We were given the job, he certainly wasn't going to call the guy that turned him in hoping since he was there and the AHJ gave em a short time period to start repairs, he'd get the job. Doesn't get that cold up here. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Eric Tysinger Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 10:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Owner refusal A quick little heads up call to the AHJ/Inspector before the inspection does wonders for situations like that. Thanks, Eric Tysinger CET NICET III - 108988 Designer Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. 4370 Motorsport Drive Concord, NC 28027 p: (704)782-3032 x1751 f: (704)795-6838 C: (239)633-9703 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - FPDC Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Owner refusal I just coming from a church project where they added an 8 x 16 wooden canopy at the main entry. The project super (and also church member) has adamantly refused to install sprinklers even though they are required. I have told him that they are needed by Code, buy he remains defiant. I assume that the AHJ would pick up on it during final inspection, but can't count on it. My plan is to write a letter to the church (my client) stating that protection is required by Code and is my best advice, but if they choose not to, I am not responsible for the consequences. How have others handled similar situations? The inspection for CO is schedules for Friday. Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
Personally I call the AHJ with a question. I have an assembly type V construction with a new wood entrance being added. My reading of section xxx.x.x.x of NFPA 13, and 903.x.x of the IBC tell me this area should be protected with fire sprinklers. The project super say's I don't have to do it, but when I ask which exception he is referring too he doesn't respond. Is there an exception that allows this space to remain unprotected? Am I missing something? Maybe some local ordinance? You've given the AHJ and yourself an out. Thom Subject: RE: Owner refusal Your call to the AHJ- fine line to walk. If you know em, have a rapport with em, make the call. If you don't know em from Adam, he may be best friends with the supt and you've shot yourself in the foot. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Recent Antifreeze Letter
I came across this letter regarding the antifreeze situation. The XX Residence incorporated an automatic sprinkler system in response to a variance approved by the XX zoning authority. This automatic sprinkler system was designed in accordance with NFPA 13D, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in One- and Two-Family Dwellings and Manufactured Homes. The scope of the system included sprinklers in residential areas as well as in certain utility areas. A storage tank with a pumping system provided the water supply and pressure. Because of a concern for freezing conditions in the attic space, a 50% propylene glycol antifreeze solution was added to the piping (copper). In addition, attic sprinkler piping was to be covered with insulating material and also routed remotely from the eaves. After a fire incident (resulting in a fatality and a serious injury to another person) involving a sprinkler system with an antifreeze solution, NFPA initiated a fire research project to assess the hazard of such systems. The NFPA Safety Alert is enclosed for your information. Please note that although new residential antifreeze systems are not to be designed or installed until final regulations are issued, guidelines for existing systems should be followed as described. In view of the NFPA action it is necessary to advise the client that the automatic sprinkler system should be assessed and the antifreeze solution changed to a maximum 40% propylene glycol concentration. This concentration would satisfy the NFPA guidelines and also provide protection from freezing down to a temperature of -30 F. This should be adequate for all but the most extreme conditions when the home might be left without power and heat for an extended period. XXX (sprinkler company name) has been notified that this information would be provided to you. Although a maintenance contract should be in place for this system, the NFPA Safety Alert would also be brought to the Owner's attention by their maintenance contractor. Let me know if I can be of any assistance to you in resolving this potential safety issue. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
You found the canopy 3 days prior to the CO inspection, and your design was for the building without the canopy? It sounds like there is a building official issue here where the owner has gone beyond approved construction drawings. I think this is the angle. Your design matches the scope of the permit drawings. Now the building is bigger and the bigger thing might not have been permitted. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - FPDC Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Owner refusal I just coming from a church project where they added an 8 x 16 wooden canopy at the main entry. The project super (and also church member) has adamantly refused to install sprinklers even though they are required. I have told him that they are needed by Code, buy he remains defiant. I assume that the AHJ would pick up on it during final inspection, but can't count on it. My plan is to write a letter to the church (my client) stating that protection is required by Code and is my best advice, but if they choose not to, I am not responsible for the consequences. How have others handled similar situations? The inspection for CO is schedules for Friday. Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
Thom, With all due respect, that schtick won't work. First of all, there is no exception as the local authority can only enforce the Code and not modify it. Second, the super didn't say the canopy didn't require sprinklers, but that he was not going to install them. It is a much more hostile attitude and the age of reasoning may mostly have passed. I was almost kicked off the job this morning for interfering with the contractor hanging pipe because we were going over changes. The super is doing this part time and his real job is building rather large vehicles for the military on second shift. No construction experience except having worked as a carpenter at one point. The last time I was at the site, we had it out for about 30 minutes over changes (partial existing building with no access to attic or concealed spaces + changes). This is a one-and-done contract with no hope for recommendations. My biggest concern is getting paid the balance of my contract. I may just call the AHJ and tell him he might want to pay a visit. At 12:06 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Personally I call the AHJ with a question. I have an assembly type V construction with a new wood entrance being added. My reading of section xxx.x.x.x of NFPA 13, and 903.x.x of the IBC tell me this area should be protected with fire sprinklers. The project super say's I don't have to do it, but when I ask which exception he is referring too he doesn't respond. Is there an exception that allows this space to remain unprotected? Am I missing something? Maybe some local ordinance? You've given the AHJ and yourself an out. Thom Subject: RE: Owner refusal Your call to the AHJ- fine line to walk. If you know em, have a rapport with em, make the call. If you don't know em from Adam, he may be best friends with the supt and you've shot yourself in the foot. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
So you sealed this job? Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Owner refusal Thom, With all due respect, that schtick won't work. First of all, there is no exception as the local authority can only enforce the Code and not modify it. Second, the super didn't say the canopy didn't require sprinklers, but that he was not going to install them. It is a much more hostile attitude and the age of reasoning may mostly have passed. I was almost kicked off the job this morning for interfering with the contractor hanging pipe because we were going over changes. The super is doing this part time and his real job is building rather large vehicles for the military on second shift. No construction experience except having worked as a carpenter at one point. The last time I was at the site, we had it out for about 30 minutes over changes (partial existing building with no access to attic or concealed spaces + changes). This is a one-and-done contract with no hope for recommendations. My biggest concern is getting paid the balance of my contract. I may just call the AHJ and tell him he might want to pay a visit. At 12:06 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Personally I call the AHJ with a question. I have an assembly type V construction with a new wood entrance being added. My reading of section xxx.x.x.x of NFPA 13, and 903.x.x of the IBC tell me this area should be protected with fire sprinklers. The project super say's I don't have to do it, but when I ask which exception he is referring too he doesn't respond. Is there an exception that allows this space to remain unprotected? Am I missing something? Maybe some local ordinance? You've given the AHJ and yourself an out. Thom Subject: RE: Owner refusal Your call to the AHJ- fine line to walk. If you know em, have a rapport with em, make the call. If you don't know em from Adam, he may be best friends with the supt and you've shot yourself in the foot. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: [SPAM] - RE: Owner refusal - Found word(s) XXX in the Text body
Transmit a letter to the Owner/Developer/GC pointing out the deficiency, cite the adopted code reference, the cost of the modification requesting how to proceed. When it comes time for hydrotest and/or final inspection you'll have been proactive advising the client in a timely manner if the issue arises, and it will eventually. John Drucker Jr CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Borough of Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: [SPAM] - RE: Owner refusal - Found word(s) XXX in the Text body Thom, With all due respect, that schtick won't work. First of all, there is no exception as the local authority can only enforce the Code and not modify it. Second, the super didn't say the canopy didn't require sprinklers, but that he was not going to install them. It is a much more hostile attitude and the age of reasoning may mostly have passed. I was almost kicked off the job this morning for interfering with the contractor hanging pipe because we were going over changes. The super is doing this part time and his real job is building rather large vehicles for the military on second shift. No construction experience except having worked as a carpenter at one point. The last time I was at the site, we had it out for about 30 minutes over changes (partial existing building with no access to attic or concealed spaces + changes). This is a one-and-done contract with no hope for recommendations. My biggest concern is getting paid the balance of my contract. I may just call the AHJ and tell him he might want to pay a visit. At 12:06 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Personally I call the AHJ with a question. I have an assembly type V construction with a new wood entrance being added. My reading of section xxx.x.x.x of NFPA 13, and 903.x.x of the IBC tell me this area should be protected with fire sprinklers. The project super say's I don't have to do it, but when I ask which exception he is referring too he doesn't respond. Is there an exception that allows this space to remain unprotected? Am I missing something? Maybe some local ordinance? You've given the AHJ and yourself an out. Thom Subject: RE: Owner refusal Your call to the AHJ- fine line to walk. If you know em, have a rapport with em, make the call. If you don't know em from Adam, he may be best friends with the supt and you've shot yourself in the foot. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone, return this message to the address above and delete all copies. Thank you. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
I drew and stamped the original job (before it got hostile). the canopy is the addition. At 01:59 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: So you sealed this job? Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Owner refusal Thom, With all due respect, that schtick won't work. First of all, there is no exception as the local authority can only enforce the Code and not modify it. Second, the super didn't say the canopy didn't require sprinklers, but that he was not going to install them. It is a much more hostile attitude and the age of reasoning may mostly have passed. I was almost kicked off the job this morning for interfering with the contractor hanging pipe because we were going over changes. The super is doing this part time and his real job is building rather large vehicles for the military on second shift. No construction experience except having worked as a carpenter at one point. The last time I was at the site, we had it out for about 30 minutes over changes (partial existing building with no access to attic or concealed spaces + changes). This is a one-and-done contract with no hope for recommendations. My biggest concern is getting paid the balance of my contract. I may just call the AHJ and tell him he might want to pay a visit. At 12:06 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Personally I call the AHJ with a question. I have an assembly type V construction with a new wood entrance being added. My reading of section xxx.x.x.x of NFPA 13, and 903.x.x of the IBC tell me this area should be protected with fire sprinklers. The project super say's I don't have to do it, but when I ask which exception he is referring too he doesn't respond. Is there an exception that allows this space to remain unprotected? Am I missing something? Maybe some local ordinance? You've given the AHJ and yourself an out. Thom Subject: RE: Owner refusal Your call to the AHJ- fine line to walk. If you know em, have a rapport with em, make the call. If you don't know em from Adam, he may be best friends with the supt and you've shot yourself in the foot. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
Todd, You may need to go around the sudo-super to the person who contracted your services or the person responsible for paying the bills if getting paid is a concern.George is right in that the AHJ and super may be on the same side,which is unfortunate and he/she may be of no help.This sure is a nasty situation for dealing with someone who is supposed to be doing God's work.CYA PRAY. Lamar Vaughn Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote: Thom, With all due respect, that schtick won't work. First of all, there is no exception as the local authority can only enforce the Code and not modify it. Second, the super didn't say the canopy didn't require sprinklers, but that he was not going to install them. It is a much more hostile attitude and the age of reasoning may mostly have passed. I was almost kicked off the job this morning for interfering with the contractor hanging pipe because we were going over changes. The super is doing this part time and his real job is building rather large vehicles for the military on second shift. No construction experience except having worked as a carpenter at one point. The last time I was at the site, we had it out for about 30 minutes over changes (partial existing building with no access to attic or concealed spaces + changes). This is a one-and-done contract with no hope for recommendations. My biggest concern is getting paid the balance of my contract. I may just call the AHJ and tell him he might want to pay a visit. At 12:06 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Personally I call the AHJ with a question. I have an assembly type V construction with a new wood entrance being added. My reading of section xxx.x.x.x of NFPA 13, and 903.x.x of the IBC tell me this area should be protected with fire sprinklers. The project super say's I don't have to do it, but when I ask which exception he is referring too he doesn't respond. Is there an exception that allows this space to remain unprotected? Am I missing something? Maybe some local ordinance? You've given the AHJ and yourself an out. Thom Subject: RE: Owner refusal Your call to the AHJ- fine line to walk. If you know em, have a rapport with em, make the call. If you don't know em from Adam, he may be best friends with the supt and you've shot yourself in the foot. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Hose Demand
If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
Is it actually a private separate water supply, or just a private water main that is ultimately fed from a public utility source? Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
It's a private water main that is ultimately fed from a public utility source. If I'm reading 3.8.1.11 correctly 12.8.2 should apply? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:55 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Is it actually a private separate water supply, or just a private water main that is ultimately fed from a public utility source? Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
Matt- I don't understand why you would not have to take hose demand into consideration when sizing a pump but that exclusion would not apply to an existing one. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses
RE: Hose Demand
I think this is meant to refer to inside and/or outside hose that is supplied from a hydrant or hose valve down stream of the pump. I think that you would still be required to account for it from a hydrant prior to the pump. Thanks, Eric Tysinger CET NICET III - 108988 Designer Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. 4370 Motorsport Drive Concord, NC 28027 p: (704)782-3032 x1751 f: (704)795-6838 C: (239)633-9703 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
RE: Hose Demand
Is there any place on the system to take a hose demand? At 03:54 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Is it actually a private separate water supply, or just a private water main that is ultimately fed from a public utility source? Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
Let's look at the last sentence again..., Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Right now you are evaluating a water supply, yes?, not sizing a pump. R/Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- I don't understand why you would not have to take hose demand into consideration when sizing a pump but that exclusion would not apply to an existing one. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
RE: Hose Demand
This is an addition to an existing building so I can tie the inside hose valves to the existing system side and not have them in the calc's for the new side. I was hoping that I could eliminate the 250 outside hose. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Is there any place on the system to take a hose demand? At 03:54 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Is it actually a private separate water supply, or just a private water main that is ultimately fed from a public utility source? Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
If there is no place on the system (hydrant) to take a hose stream, then it can be eliminated. If you have hydrants, either before or after the pump, the hose demand needs to be included. At 04:08 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: This is an addition to an existing building so I can tie the inside hose valves to the existing system side and not have them in the calc's for the new side. I was hoping that I could eliminate the 250 outside hose. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Is there any place on the system to take a hose demand? At 03:54 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Is it actually a private separate water supply, or just a private water main that is ultimately fed from a public utility source? Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
If there's no place on the system side of the pump to connect a hose, either a system hose valve inside or hydrant outside there is no need to calc the hose demand. It says if the system SUPPLIES SPRINKLERS ONLY you don't need to factor hose stream in when sizing the pump. Size the pump based on Sprinkler flow demand only. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00
Re: Hose Demand
Could it possibly be that there is a steep water supply curve? For instance, he may have 40 psi at system flow on the city main, but when you take 250 gpm off for hose allowance from the water supply (point of connection to the city main), then he may only have 20 psi left. This could keep the system from being able to be calculated below the curve. We have run into this situation on some pretty 'crappy' water supply curves. On 10/5/2010 1:15 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: If there's no place on the system side of the pump to connect a hose, either a system hose valve inside or hydrant outside there is no need to calc the hose demand. It says if the system SUPPLIES SPRINKLERS ONLY you don't need to factor hose stream in when sizing the pump. Size the pump based on Sprinkler flow demand only. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe,
RE: Hose Demand
Craig, If the hydrant is installed on the supply side, wouldn't you have to include that in your hydraulic calculations? A hose stream would be taken from there as that could impact the final output of the pump, which could in turn impact the pump sizing. It may not affect the flow but it could the pressure. At 04:15 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: If there's no place on the system side of the pump to connect a hose, either a system hose valve inside or hydrant outside there is no need to calc the hose demand. It says if the system SUPPLIES SPRINKLERS ONLY you don't need to factor hose stream in when sizing the pump. Size the pump based on Sprinkler flow demand only. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to:
RE: Hose Demand
I agree, but you would still have to account for the required hose allowance (i.e. 100, 250, 500) prior to the fire pump if there are hydrants present. With tanks and other stored water sources without hydrants you would not have too. If the FD hooks up to those hydrants and takes out 250 then your supply to the pump would be 250 short if not accounted for. Thanks, Eric Tysinger CET NICET III - 108988 Designer Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. 4370 Motorsport Drive Concord, NC 28027 p: (704)782-3032 x1751 f: (704)795-6838 C: (239)633-9703 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand If there's no place on the system side of the pump to connect a hose, either a system hose valve inside or hydrant outside there is no need to calc the hose demand. It says if the system SUPPLIES SPRINKLERS ONLY you don't need to factor hose stream in when sizing the pump. Size the pump based on Sprinkler flow demand only. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3178 - Release Date: 10/05/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware
RE: Hose Demand
Yes, but read what I said, If there is no hydrant or other hose valve connection on the SYSTEM side of the pump you don't add the hose demand into the calc. If there was a hydrant or hose connection on the system side of then naturally you'd add it to the sprinkler flow and calc. it. But he said he didn't have that condition. If there was a hydrant on the municipal side of the pump that could be used for hose stream then that would affect the suction flow and pressure to the pump and he'd have to know that in order to size the pump. Still doesn't have anything to do with hose stream on the discharge side of the pump. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Craig, If the hydrant is installed on the supply side, wouldn't you have to include that in your hydraulic calculations? A hose stream would be taken from there as that could impact the final output of the pump, which could in turn impact the pump sizing. It may not affect the flow but it could the pressure. At 04:15 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: If there's no place on the system side of the pump to connect a hose, either a system hose valve inside or hydrant outside there is no need to calc the hose demand. It says if the system SUPPLIES SPRINKLERS ONLY you don't need to factor hose stream in when sizing the pump. Size the pump based on Sprinkler flow demand only. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe,
RE: Hose Demand
I don't see where you get relief from the hose allowance. It's all from a city source so it has to be accounted for, somewhere. You can only squeeze out so much, and if it is not there, it's not there. Not including it means not accounting for it, which is not correct in my opinion. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand This is an addition to an existing building so I can tie the inside hose valves to the existing system side and not have them in the calc's for the new side. I was hoping that I could eliminate the 250 outside hose. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Is there any place on the system to take a hose demand? At 03:54 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Is it actually a private separate water supply, or just a private water main that is ultimately fed from a public utility source? Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Hose Demand
According to Brian, this is an existing pump, so we are dealing with an existing condition. How the pump was previously sized we don't know or care. The second sentence of 12.8.2 states: Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supply. Section 12.8.3 further states: Water allowance for outside hose shall be added to the sprinkler requirement at the connection to the city main or a yard hydrant, whichever is closer. The latter is irrespective of a pump being on the system or not. Based on this, the hydraulic calculations he needs to prepare for the system would have to include a hose demand before the pump. The initial question was am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? The answer I would say is no, but it needs to be included at the location per 12.8.3, whatever side of the pump it is on. At 04:28 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Yes, but read what I said, If there is no hydrant or other hose valve connection on the SYSTEM side of the pump you don't add the hose demand into the calc. If there was a hydrant or hose connection on the system side of then naturally you'd add it to the sprinkler flow and calc. it. But he said he didn't have that condition. If there was a hydrant on the municipal side of the pump that could be used for hose stream then that would affect the suction flow and pressure to the pump and he'd have to know that in order to size the pump. Still doesn't have anything to do with hose stream on the discharge side of the pump. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Craig, If the hydrant is installed on the supply side, wouldn't you have to include that in your hydraulic calculations? A hose stream would be taken from there as that could impact the final output of the pump, which could in turn impact the pump sizing. It may not affect the flow but it could the pressure. At 04:15 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: If there's no place on the system side of the pump to connect a hose, either a system hose valve inside or hydrant outside there is no need to calc the hose demand. It says if the system SUPPLIES SPRINKLERS ONLY you don't need to factor hose stream in when sizing the pump. Size the pump based on Sprinkler flow demand only. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand It says the Pump need not be sized to accommodate..., looks like all other hose/calculations may apply. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To:
RE: Hose Demand
Yep, You still have inside and outside hose for a combined total for a specific duration. You can omit INSIDE if no provision is there, but the total must be met. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:55 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand According to Brian, this is an existing pump, so we are dealing with an existing condition. How the pump was previously sized we don't know or care. The second sentence of 12.8.2 states: Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supply. Section 12.8.3 further states: Water allowance for outside hose shall be added to the sprinkler requirement at the connection to the city main or a yard hydrant, whichever is closer. The latter is irrespective of a pump being on the system or not. Based on this, the hydraulic calculations he needs to prepare for the system would have to include a hose demand before the pump. The initial question was am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? The answer I would say is no, but it needs to be included at the location per 12.8.3, whatever side of the pump it is on. At 04:28 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Yes, but read what I said, If there is no hydrant or other hose valve connection on the SYSTEM side of the pump you don't add the hose demand into the calc. If there was a hydrant or hose connection on the system side of then naturally you'd add it to the sprinkler flow and calc. it. But he said he didn't have that condition. If there was a hydrant on the municipal side of the pump that could be used for hose stream then that would affect the suction flow and pressure to the pump and he'd have to know that in order to size the pump. Still doesn't have anything to do with hose stream on the discharge side of the pump. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Craig, If the hydrant is installed on the supply side, wouldn't you have to include that in your hydraulic calculations? A hose stream would be taken from there as that could impact the final output of the pump, which could in turn impact the pump sizing. It may not affect the flow but it could the pressure. At 04:15 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: If there's no place on the system side of the pump to connect a hose, either a system hose valve inside or hydrant outside there is no need to calc the hose demand. It says if the system SUPPLIES SPRINKLERS ONLY you don't need to factor hose stream in when sizing the pump. Size the pump based on Sprinkler flow demand only. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand 12.8.2 Where pumps taking suction from a private fire service main supply sprinklers only, the pump need not be sized to accommodate inside and outside hose. Such hose allowance shall be considered in evaluating the available water supplies. Unless you are sizing a pump, I do not think so. Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Matt- On this particular project the calculations will not work with the existing pump if hose stream is figured in, without the hose stream the system will work. Can 12.8.2 be applied? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From:
RE: Hose Demand
Jeff- I guess it was just wishful thinking, that's why I was looking for others opinions. Thanks for the help. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 5:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand I don't see where you get relief from the hose allowance. It's all from a city source so it has to be accounted for, somewhere. You can only squeeze out so much, and if it is not there, it's not there. Not including it means not accounting for it, which is not correct in my opinion. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand This is an addition to an existing building so I can tie the inside hose valves to the existing system side and not have them in the calc's for the new side. I was hoping that I could eliminate the 250 outside hose. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Hose Demand Is there any place on the system to take a hose demand? At 03:54 PM 10/5/2010, you wrote: Is it actually a private separate water supply, or just a private water main that is ultimately fed from a public utility source? Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Hose Demand If I have a system with a pump that is fed from a private fire main as described in 3.8.1.11 (2007) am I allowed to exclude the hose stream from the calculations per 12.8.2? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16010) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send
RE: ESFR Dry Pendents
Viking supplies two pieces of foam about 3/4 thick that is 6 diameter. It goes on top of the freezer panel and against the ceiling on the inside. I just wanted to see if any forumites had some real world experience with these things. This our first time using them. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: ESFR Dry Pendents Ron, I don't have any specific experience but think this through. If you insulate the dry barrel you have effectively created a situation where the cold from the freezer dissipates from the barrel slower than it would otherwise and exacerbates the chances that the cold will migrate into the wet portion of the system at a greater rate and thereby run the risk of freezing the wet section. I think you'd be better off with a foam donut at the point where the dry barrel enters the freezer box to mitigate against moisture running down the barrel but I'd check with Viking first. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.com wrote: Has anyone had experience with the Viking ESFR dry pendent? We have been asked by the building owner if there is any problem with condensation forming and running into the freezer from the ambient area above. We have installed them according to Vikings' installation instructions so we are hoping everything will be fine. The owner wanted the pipe leg above the freezer box to be insulated, Viking says no. It may be dry here but the temp difference on a hot day could be -10F to +120F. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
