RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent
Well I think that might be the point. The bracing that is needed (although not stated) on clean agent is clearly very robust. The question however is are additional listed seismic braces required to be installed and calculated? My experience has been no they are not, but this has been driven by AHJ response. I have wondered as Bill did as to the intent of the code and standard. I will shoot our main manufacturer and email and share the results back to the forum. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of max brown Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 6:42 PM To: burtell Subject: RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent On our installations we always have additional bracing. Restraint in all directions similar to underground mains, high pressure discharge with 360 degree, upward restraint, 180 degree nozzles rotational restraint. No question that clean agent delivered to protected area. Seen 180 nozzles rotate above ceiling on discharg and 360 nozzles raising up above ceiling upon discharge. Sprinkler System seismic restraint on Clean Agent for us is not considered seismic as much as necessary system component. No question about meeting seismic capabilitiy. From: r...@rapidfireinc.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 12:41:01 -0600 Subject: RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent We braced the clean agent as we normally would and interpreted it to mean that no additional seismic would be required. Sprinkler system in same area hung as per usual but fully EQ braced. USACE project. I was curious as to why but once the response came back that no additional bracing was required I wasn't near as anxious to dig into it. It will be interesting to see if Bill gets anything back from NFPA. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent So how did you interpret that since there are no specific bracing requirements or methods stated within NFPA 2001 other than to say it is to be securely supported? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 2:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent Had a large clean agent project where we sent an RFI with the same question. Their response was that the bracing requirements of NFPA 2001 were sufficient. The sprinkler system had seismic and each brace even had to be modeled. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 11:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent Perhaps a bit off the reservation here but does anyone out there have some reason for the lack of clean agent system seismic bracing requirements? Empty piping? Bracing already factored into piping design per ??? Feel free to send me to another listserv if one exists for special hazard systems. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___
Re: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent
So the purpose of the bracing on clean agents is to keep the pipe from moving (reacting) to the forces exerted on it by the discharge of the agent, whereas the purpose of EQ bracing is to force the pipe to move (overcome inertia) in relation and parallel to the movement of the building. Standard sprinkler hanging/bracing/restraint rules are adequate for sprinkler discharge forces. Empty clean agent piping is lighter (less inertia to overcome) than water-filled sprinkler piping (typically more and bigger) in an earthquake. Seems we have not only apples and oranges here but an entire fruit salad. I'm kind of leery when it comes to buying one set of numbers covers two completely different scenarios when so many variables are present. Just because ASME 7 is referenced doesn't say that EQ rules are covered. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com wrote: Well I think that might be the point. The bracing that is needed (although not stated) on clean agent is clearly very robust. The question however is are additional listed seismic braces required to be installed and calculated? My experience has been no they are not, but this has been driven by AHJ response. I have wondered as Bill did as to the intent of the code and standard. I will shoot our main manufacturer and email and share the results back to the forum. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of max brown Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 6:42 PM To: burtell Subject: RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent On our installations we always have additional bracing. Restraint in all directions similar to underground mains, high pressure discharge with 360 degree, upward restraint, 180 degree nozzles rotational restraint. No question that clean agent delivered to protected area. Seen 180 nozzles rotate above ceiling on discharg and 360 nozzles raising up above ceiling upon discharge. Sprinkler System seismic restraint on Clean Agent for us is not considered seismic as much as necessary system component. No question about meeting seismic capabilitiy. From: r...@rapidfireinc.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 12:41:01 -0600 Subject: RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent We braced the clean agent as we normally would and interpreted it to mean that no additional seismic would be required. Sprinkler system in same area hung as per usual but fully EQ braced. USACE project. I was curious as to why but once the response came back that no additional bracing was required I wasn't near as anxious to dig into it. It will be interesting to see if Bill gets anything back from NFPA. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent So how did you interpret that since there are no specific bracing requirements or methods stated within NFPA 2001 other than to say it is to be securely supported? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 2:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent Had a large clean agent project where we sent an RFI with the same question. Their response was that the bracing requirements of NFPA 2001 were sufficient. The sprinkler system had seismic and each brace even had to be modeled. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 11:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Seismic Bracing - Clean Agent Perhaps a bit off the reservation here but does anyone out there have some reason for the lack of clean agent system seismic bracing requirements? Empty piping? Bracing already factored into piping design per ??? Feel free to send me to another listserv if one exists for special hazard systems. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To
Water storage
The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for fire department hose streams? So, water storage for hose streams is another 15,000 gallons? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Water storage
Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water storage The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for fire department hose streams? So, water storage for hose streams is another 15,000 gallons? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Water storage
And it is unusual in our operating areas to have the fire flows enforced. So if you have an OH1 density, you may only need to furnish 15,000 gallons if you have no hydrants or hose supplied by the tank pump. I sell a lot of tanks and pumps with 30,000 gal for OH II retail when my competitor figures 45,000 gallons stored. Read the standard. Understand the building code. Talk to the AHJ so you're not 15,000 gallons short. Clarify in proposal you have 15k. Read the indemnification clause in the GC contract before signing and returning. Install, add water, invoice and sell em ITM. George L. Church, Jr., CET , GAC Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax g...@rowesprinkler.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water storage The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for fire department hose streams? So, water storage for hose streams is another 15,000 gallons? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Water storage
The maximum sprinkler demand was 250 gpm. This is a health centre with three mechanical rooms, the largest being about 1100 sq.ft. The most demanding area is this mech. room, which I classified as OH 1. Providing water for the fire flow is not my responsibility, and I don't want to go there. This site doesn't have any water (even domestic water is stored). Disregarding the fireflow, I think I should ensure that at least the hose allowances are available. My question was, would you use the same duration, 60 to 90 minutes for the hose allowances? I'm asking this question as depending on response time, the demand for sprinlers and hose may not occur concurrently. Another reason is to understand the concept. Is the hose allowance just a glorified safety factor? I would think the fire department would be pulling more than 100 gpm or 250 gpm when the pumper truck connects to a hydrant. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 11:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water storage The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for fire department hose streams? So, water storage for hose streams is another 15,000 gallons? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Water storage
13-494 Log #356 AUT-SSD Final Action: Accept (23.1.2) Submitter: Kenneth E. Isman, National Fire Sprinkler Association, Inc. Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows: 23.1.2 Capacity. Water supplies shall be capable of providing the required flow and pressure for the remote design area determined using the procedures in Chapters 11 through 22 for the required duration as specified in Chapter 11, Chapter 12 and through Chapter 21. Substantiation: The water supply only needs to provide the duration for the remote area, not the closer sprinklers in the system that will discharge more water. Also, all of the discharge chapters need to be specified, not just the basic storage Chapter 12. Committee Meeting Action: Accept Number Eligible to Vote: 25 Ballot Results: Affirmative: 22 Ballot Not Returned: 3 Brown, T., Hogan, A., McNamara, T. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water storage The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for fire department hose streams? So, water storage for hose streams is another 15,000 gallons? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word
RE: Water storage
If you have no municipal water and no hydrants and no interior hose valves then the hose stream allowance is not a factor. Use the most demanding sprinkler flow to determine duration. Question, is there a fire alarm system that is monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices? We've addressed the hose stream allowance in regard to sprinkler calcs in depth on another thread. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:59 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage The maximum sprinkler demand was 250 gpm. This is a health centre with three mechanical rooms, the largest being about 1100 sq.ft. The most demanding area is this mech. room, which I classified as OH 1. Providing water for the fire flow is not my responsibility, and I don't want to go there. This site doesn't have any water (even domestic water is stored). Disregarding the fireflow, I think I should ensure that at least the hose allowances are available. My question was, would you use the same duration, 60 to 90 minutes for the hose allowances? I'm asking this question as depending on response time, the demand for sprinlers and hose may not occur concurrently. Another reason is to understand the concept. Is the hose allowance just a glorified safety factor? I would think the fire department would be pulling more than 100 gpm or 250 gpm when the pumper truck connects to a hydrant. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 11:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water storage The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for fire department hose streams? So, water storage for hose streams is another 15,000 gallons? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___
RE: Water storage
OK? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage 13-494 Log #356 AUT-SSD Final Action: Accept (23.1.2) Submitter: Kenneth E. Isman, National Fire Sprinkler Association, Inc. Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows: 23.1.2 Capacity. Water supplies shall be capable of providing the required flow and pressure for the remote design area determined using the procedures in Chapters 11 through 22 for the required duration as specified in Chapter 11, Chapter 12 and through Chapter 21. Substantiation: The water supply only needs to provide the duration for the remote area, not the closer sprinklers in the system that will discharge more water. Also, all of the discharge chapters need to be specified, not just the basic storage Chapter 12. Committee Meeting Action: Accept Number Eligible to Vote: 25 Ballot Results: Affirmative: 22 Ballot Not Returned: 3 Brown, T., Hogan, A., McNamara, T. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water storage The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for fire department hose streams? So, water storage for hose streams is another 15,000 gallons? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to:
RE: Water storage
I need to supply a fire hydrant, but will categorically state that the water storage is not for the fire flow. Yes, there is an alarm system monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices. The building code requires all sprinklered buildings to have an alarm system. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage If you have no municipal water and no hydrants and no interior hose valves then the hose stream allowance is not a factor. Use the most demanding sprinkler flow to determine duration. Question, is there a fire alarm system that is monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices? We've addressed the hose stream allowance in regard to sprinkler calcs in depth on another thread. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:59 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage The maximum sprinkler demand was 250 gpm. This is a health centre with three mechanical rooms, the largest being about 1100 sq.ft. The most demanding area is this mech. room, which I classified as OH 1. Providing water for the fire flow is not my responsibility, and I don't want to go there. This site doesn't have any water (even domestic water is stored). Disregarding the fireflow, I think I should ensure that at least the hose allowances are available. My question was, would you use the same duration, 60 to 90 minutes for the hose allowances? I'm asking this question as depending on response time, the demand for sprinlers and hose may not occur concurrently. Another reason is to understand the concept. Is the hose allowance just a glorified safety factor? I would think the fire department would be pulling more than 100 gpm or 250 gpm when the pumper truck connects to a hydrant. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 11:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water storage The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for
RE: Water storage
Does the alarm system only sound at the building or does it auto-dial the fire department, that's the issue. So you're going to provide a fire hydrant supplied off a storage tank that is also supplying the building sprinklers? What will be the point of the hydrant if its anticipated flow is not part of the overall duration and storage capacity? Just a convenience point for neighborhood dogs? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage I need to supply a fire hydrant, but will categorically state that the water storage is not for the fire flow. Yes, there is an alarm system monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices. The building code requires all sprinklered buildings to have an alarm system. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage If you have no municipal water and no hydrants and no interior hose valves then the hose stream allowance is not a factor. Use the most demanding sprinkler flow to determine duration. Question, is there a fire alarm system that is monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices? We've addressed the hose stream allowance in regard to sprinkler calcs in depth on another thread. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:59 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage The maximum sprinkler demand was 250 gpm. This is a health centre with three mechanical rooms, the largest being about 1100 sq.ft. The most demanding area is this mech. room, which I classified as OH 1. Providing water for the fire flow is not my responsibility, and I don't want to go there. This site doesn't have any water (even domestic water is stored). Disregarding the fireflow, I think I should ensure that at least the hose allowances are available. My question was, would you use the same duration, 60 to 90 minutes for the hose allowances? I'm asking this question as depending on response time, the demand for sprinlers and hose may not occur concurrently. Another reason is to understand the concept. Is the hose allowance just a glorified safety factor? I would think the fire department would be pulling more than 100 gpm or 250 gpm when the pumper truck connects to a hydrant. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 11:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection
RE: Water storage
Well, I guess my point would be that you don't have to figure any hydraulic imbalance in your sprinkler water quantity. Just density x area x time. Perhaps Ken's approved proposal could be clarified to confirm. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage OK? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage 13-494 Log #356 AUT-SSD Final Action: Accept (23.1.2) Submitter: Kenneth E. Isman, National Fire Sprinkler Association, Inc. Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows: 23.1.2 Capacity. Water supplies shall be capable of providing the required flow and pressure for the remote design area determined using the procedures in Chapters 11 through 22 for the required duration as specified in Chapter 11, Chapter 12 and through Chapter 21. Substantiation: The water supply only needs to provide the duration for the remote area, not the closer sprinklers in the system that will discharge more water. Also, all of the discharge chapters need to be specified, not just the basic storage Chapter 12. Committee Meeting Action: Accept Number Eligible to Vote: 25 Ballot Results: Affirmative: 22 Ballot Not Returned: 3 Brown, T., Hogan, A., McNamara, T. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B was applied as the approved method. I have encountered few fire protection system designers and engineers who understand or even implement the fire flow section of the Code. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Water storage The duration of water supply for a hydraulically calculated ord. hazard sprinkler system is 60 to 90 minutes. So if the sprinkler demand is 250 gpm the required water storage is 15,000 gallons using the lower duration. There used to be a requirement (which I don't see now) that the water supply should be 150% of the pump rating. Is that still required? The rated capacity of the pump in this case is 250 gpm. Also, is 60 minute duration enough for fire department hose streams? So, water storage for hose streams is
RE: Water storage
It is a centrally monitored alarm system that dials the fire department. The GC has requested storage tank to also supply a fire hydrant. I have informed them that it will not provide the fire flow. But now I'm obligated (I think) to ensure that the volume for hose allowances is also provided. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 12:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Does the alarm system only sound at the building or does it auto-dial the fire department, that's the issue. So you're going to provide a fire hydrant supplied off a storage tank that is also supplying the building sprinklers? What will be the point of the hydrant if its anticipated flow is not part of the overall duration and storage capacity? Just a convenience point for neighborhood dogs? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage I need to supply a fire hydrant, but will categorically state that the water storage is not for the fire flow. Yes, there is an alarm system monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices. The building code requires all sprinklered buildings to have an alarm system. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage If you have no municipal water and no hydrants and no interior hose valves then the hose stream allowance is not a factor. Use the most demanding sprinkler flow to determine duration. Question, is there a fire alarm system that is monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices? We've addressed the hose stream allowance in regard to sprinkler calcs in depth on another thread. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:59 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage The maximum sprinkler demand was 250 gpm. This is a health centre with three mechanical rooms, the largest being about 1100 sq.ft. The most demanding area is this mech. room, which I classified as OH 1. Providing water for the fire flow is not my responsibility, and I don't want to go there. This site doesn't have any water (even domestic water is stored). Disregarding the fireflow, I think I should ensure that at least the hose allowances are available. My question was, would you use the same duration, 60 to 90 minutes for the hose allowances? I'm asking this question as depending on response time, the demand for sprinlers and hose may not occur concurrently. Another reason is to understand the concept. Is the hose allowance just a glorified safety factor? I would think the fire department would be pulling more than 100 gpm or 250 gpm when the pumper truck connects to a hydrant. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 11:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing
RE: Water storage
But we all know that a .15 gpm/sf over 1500 gpm doesn't calc out to exactly 225 gpm of flow and we know that most fires are controlled by 3 or less sprinklers. So if someone wants to cut it that close, go for it. Related to the question of whether to include hose stream or not, what's interesting is that in other areas of 13, it is clearly spelled out that the demand is to include both hose and sprinklers. But in the NFSA response it's talking about not considering the excess flow that is typical of sprinklers closer to the riser which are OUTSIDE of the remote area. It is NOT saying anything about factoring the imbalance or overage for the remote area sprinklers. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Well, I guess my point would be that you don't have to figure any hydraulic imbalance in your sprinkler water quantity. Just density x area x time. Perhaps Ken's approved proposal could be clarified to confirm. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage OK? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage 13-494 Log #356 AUT-SSD Final Action: Accept (23.1.2) Submitter: Kenneth E. Isman, National Fire Sprinkler Association, Inc. Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows: 23.1.2 Capacity. Water supplies shall be capable of providing the required flow and pressure for the remote design area determined using the procedures in Chapters 11 through 22 for the required duration as specified in Chapter 11, Chapter 12 and through Chapter 21. Substantiation: The water supply only needs to provide the duration for the remote area, not the closer sprinklers in the system that will discharge more water. Also, all of the discharge chapters need to be specified, not just the basic storage Chapter 12. Committee Meeting Action: Accept Number Eligible to Vote: 25 Ballot Results: Affirmative: 22 Ballot Not Returned: 3 Brown, T., Hogan, A., McNamara, T. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet system if you take that 300 gpm and than increase that by 15% you'd get 345 gpm. Just say 350 for simplicity. Then add the 250 gpm for hose stream allowance and you've got 600 gpm total system demand. For total capacity at 60 minutes (IF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WATERFLOW, TAMPER SWITCHES AND SUPERVISORY DEVICES ARE ELECTRICALLY SUPERVISED) 600 GPM X 60 MINUTES = 36000 gallons. If you have to use the higher value you'd be looking at 54000 gallons. Fire department hydrant hose streams fall under the category of Fire Flow within the Fire Code. This is a whole other topic of discussion that can get rather muddied and is very often totally overlooked by the EOR or others designing underground fire service piping systems. If the local Fire Service requires a site or building to provide Fire Flow the flow rates and durations can be considerably higher. One recent project I had was requiring over a million gallons of storage for fire flow based on unprotected building size and construction types. IFC Appendix B
RE: Water storage
Yeah, I'd say you since you're providing a hydrant, you'll need to factor in the hose stream demand as all outside but it does need to be added to the sprinkler demand to determine total required capacity for the designated duration. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage It is a centrally monitored alarm system that dials the fire department. The GC has requested storage tank to also supply a fire hydrant. I have informed them that it will not provide the fire flow. But now I'm obligated (I think) to ensure that the volume for hose allowances is also provided. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 12:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Does the alarm system only sound at the building or does it auto-dial the fire department, that's the issue. So you're going to provide a fire hydrant supplied off a storage tank that is also supplying the building sprinklers? What will be the point of the hydrant if its anticipated flow is not part of the overall duration and storage capacity? Just a convenience point for neighborhood dogs? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage I need to supply a fire hydrant, but will categorically state that the water storage is not for the fire flow. Yes, there is an alarm system monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices. The building code requires all sprinklered buildings to have an alarm system. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage If you have no municipal water and no hydrants and no interior hose valves then the hose stream allowance is not a factor. Use the most demanding sprinkler flow to determine duration. Question, is there a fire alarm system that is monitoring the sprinkler supervisory devices? We've addressed the hose stream allowance in regard to sprinkler calcs in depth on another thread. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:59 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage The maximum sprinkler demand was 250 gpm. This is a health centre with three mechanical rooms, the largest being about 1100 sq.ft. The most demanding area is this mech. room, which I classified as OH 1. Providing water for the fire flow is not my responsibility, and I don't want to go there. This site doesn't have any water (even domestic water is stored). Disregarding the fireflow, I think I should ensure that at least the hose allowances are available. My question was, would you use the same duration, 60 to 90 minutes for the hose allowances? I'm asking this question as depending on response time, the demand for sprinlers and hose may not occur concurrently. Another reason is to understand the concept. Is the hose allowance just a glorified safety factor? I would think the fire department would be pulling more than 100 gpm or 250 gpm when the pumper truck connects to a hydrant. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: August 9, 2011 11:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Assuming Ord. II at .20/gpm sf over 1500 sf would be 300 gpm flow rate minimum. Now remember that sprinkler system flows will always exceed the base design criteria because the .20gpm/sf is the hyd. remote sprinkler and those upstream will put out more. So typically you will see a 10-15% overage in actual system flow. To be conservative for a wet
misc storage under pitched roof
I am working on a building with a 3:12 roof trusses where they want to store Class III commodities to 12 ft. Since the storage area will exceed 10% of the building area, it is not considered miscellaneous storage (Chapter 13). However, chapter 14 (NFPA 13 - 2010) refers storage 12 ft and under back to Chapter 13. Section 12.1.2, which restricts roof slope to less than 2:12, states only references Chapters 12 and 14-20. I have 2 questions: 1) If I am using chapter 14 to determine criteria and it refers back to Chapter 13, does section 12.1.2 apply? 2) Does this mean that miscellaneous storage can be protected using Chapter 13 criteria without regard to roof slope? So if I have someone who wants to store to 16 ft in a building with a 4:12 pitch, a legitimate option would be to lower the storage to 12 ft? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: misc storage under pitched roof
1. No 2. Yes Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: misc storage under pitched roof I am working on a building with a 3:12 roof trusses where they want to store Class III commodities to 12 ft. Since the storage area will exceed 10% of the building area, it is not considered miscellaneous storage (Chapter 13). However, chapter 14 (NFPA 13 - 2010) refers storage 12 ft and under back to Chapter 13. Section 12.1.2, which restricts roof slope to less than 2:12, states only references Chapters 12 and 14-20. I have 2 questions: 1) If I am using chapter 14 to determine criteria and it refers back to Chapter 13, does section 12.1.2 apply? 2) Does this mean that miscellaneous storage can be protected using Chapter 13 criteria without regard to roof slope? So if I have someone who wants to store to 16 ft in a building with a 4:12 pitch, a legitimate option would be to lower the storage to 12 ft? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: misc storage under pitched roof
Todd, I do not have the 2010 handbook, but the commentary to the 2007 edition for 12.1 states It is important to note that all of the rules of Chapter 12 apply to all storage arrangements addressed by chapter 12 and Chapters 14 through 20. Chapter 13 Miscellaneous Storage, and all protection methods that refer to Chapter 13 for design criteria, use the occupancy design approach in Chapter 11, and Chapter 12 requirements do not apply. Jack W. Carlson, SET Triple A Fire Protection, Inc. Cell - 706.247.5050 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 4:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: misc storage under pitched roof I am working on a building with a 3:12 roof trusses where they want to store Class III commodities to 12 ft. Since the storage area will exceed 10% of the building area, it is not considered miscellaneous storage (Chapter 13). However, chapter 14 (NFPA 13 - 2010) refers storage 12 ft and under back to Chapter 13. Section 12.1.2, which restricts roof slope to less than 2:12, states only references Chapters 12 and 14-20. I have 2 questions: 1) If I am using chapter 14 to determine criteria and it refers back to Chapter 13, does section 12.1.2 apply? 2) Does this mean that miscellaneous storage can be protected using Chapter 13 criteria without regard to roof slope? So if I have someone who wants to store to 16 ft in a building with a 4:12 pitch, a legitimate option would be to lower the storage to 12 ft? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Water storage/NFPA 13 Proposal
I concur with Craig. It seems the proposal was written to clarify for AHJs that one needs NOT run a separate calculation for sprinklers closest to the source simply to identify maximum flows (and therefore maximum supply requirements). The remote area calculation(s) is 'good enough'. I do not think the proposal is suggesting you can calc a tank based merely on 'density x area x duration = volume'. The procedures in Chapters 11 through 22 for the required duration as specified in Chapter 11, Chapter 12 and through Chapter 21 do not allow you to omit overages within the design area. Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| Fargo, ND mark.sorn...@ulteig.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage But we all know that a .15 gpm/sf over 1500 gpm doesn't calc out to exactly 225 gpm of flow and we know that most fires are controlled by 3 or less sprinklers. So if someone wants to cut it that close, go for it. Related to the question of whether to include hose stream or not, what's interesting is that in other areas of 13, it is clearly spelled out that the demand is to include both hose and sprinklers. But in the NFSA response it's talking about not considering the excess flow that is typical of sprinklers closer to the riser which are OUTSIDE of the remote area. It is NOT saying anything about factoring the imbalance or overage for the remote area sprinklers. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage Well, I guess my point would be that you don't have to figure any hydraulic imbalance in your sprinkler water quantity. Just density x area x time. Perhaps Ken's approved proposal could be clarified to confirm. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage OK? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:02 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Water storage 13-494 Log #356 AUT-SSD Final Action: Accept (23.1.2) Submitter: Kenneth E. Isman, National Fire Sprinkler Association, Inc. Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows: 23.1.2 Capacity. Water supplies shall be capable of providing the required flow and pressure for the remote design area determined using the procedures in Chapters 11 through 22 for the required duration as specified in Chapter 11, Chapter 12 and through Chapter 21. Substantiation: The water supply only needs to provide the duration for the remote area, not the closer sprinklers in the system that will discharge more water. Also, all of the discharge chapters need to be specified, not just the basic storage Chapter 12. Committee Meeting Action: Accept Number Eligible to Vote: 25 Ballot Results: Affirmative: 22 Ballot Not Returned: 3 Brown, T., Hogan, A., McNamara, T. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
