RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

[BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum]

Further proof that you can obtain a license to practice architecture without 
understanding what listing a product means. Wishfulness does not overcome 
proven knowledge.

Best.


> On 08/25/2020 10:40 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
>  
> I wouldn't install a non-conforming component no matter who said they'd take 
> liability.  For me to install it knowing it's not right still can still 
> result in some level of liability no matter how much I might protest.  Unless 
> the manufacturer responsible for the listing of the product issues a 
> directive stating that it can be installed in this alternative manner and 
> provides the specific installation guidelines, then and only then would I 
> install it.
> 
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:29 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: John Denhardt 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers
> 
> Agree 100%.  Follow the Listing - period.
> 
> If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them provide 
> direction and assume all liability.
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> 
> John August Denhardt, PE
> *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*
> 
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> m: p: 301-343-1457
> 214-349-5965 ext 121
> w: firesprinkler.org
>   > 
>   > 
>   >
>
>   >
> 
> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*
> 
> *AFSA Summer Sale!*
> 
> For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its on-demand 
> recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought leaders, AFSA 
> On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability to earn CEU and 
> CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm22r8lfM0g$
>   to learn more.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum < 
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> 
> > Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.
> > My guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present.
> > The building code requires the windows to be protected with listed 
> > sprinklers.
> > Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal
> > million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and
> > NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the
> > liability as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend
> > the money to put in the proper glass.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
> >
> > [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
> >
> > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
> >
> > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
> >
> > Email: j...@burtellfire.com
> >
> > Web Site:
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7lt
> > Teg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23_OhSm2w
> > $
> >
> > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of
> > low price is forgotten.**”*
> >
> > *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> > intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This
> > e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail
> > transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain
> > confidential information that is legally privileged.  If you are not
> > the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or
> > agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are
> > hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution,
> > copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information
> > contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited.  If
> > you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
> > immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
> > original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or 
> > saving it in any manner.  

Re: Window Sprinklers

[AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum]

If you are referring to Tyco WS sprinklers, then you do see that it is not 
listed when there is a horizontal mullion but you also see in its installation 
details that there is no maximum distance indicated for the “ceiling” to the 
sprinkler. Yup, go look at. One other aspect to this is that there are 
application instances where the building code requires sprinklers at the glass 
in lieu of a wall fire resistance rating, but not necessarily using Tyco WS 
sprinklers. Such is the case for glazing in atriums where the wall need only be 
1-hour rated. A standard QR pendent would meet the building code requirement. 
If that was the situation then the lower sprinkler would need a multilevel 
shield to comply with an NFPA 13 installation. Right?
So it may be possible to set this up as requested by the Architect but it would 
look like hell if standard black pipe and standard fittings were used. There 
would be a couple of ways to pipe this. I think each way would look ridiculous. 
Every sprinkler person in town would be snap-chatting pictures of it.
Arguments about sprinklers not activating mean nothing. They are akin to saying 
there is nothing to burn. We just jump through the hoops given to us and keep 
moving. The Architect has his or her tit in a wringer. You just need to 
convince them to come up with an appropriate architectural solution that makes 
them look like they know what they are doing. The glazing as they have it now 
has to be architecturally rationalized in their mind to be the wrong thing. 
Somehow seed that thought and get it to grow.  

Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO

> On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have an architect that wants to put additional window sprinklers below a
> horizontal mullion. I am absolutely against this idea as it's not listed or
> approved for this. Has anyone run into this situation?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
> 
> [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
> 
> Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
> 
> 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
> 
> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
> 
> Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com
> 
> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
> price is forgotten.**”*
> 
> *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
> transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
> other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
> is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this
> e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
> to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
> any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
> original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

[Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum]

I agree. Yes, the assemblies are required to be rated.

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this
e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
saving it in any manner.  Thank you.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:36 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> The horizontal mullions create a horizontal barrier to the water run-down
> of the window sprinklers.  So the architect is probably figuring that if
> they have window sprinklers located up high near the top of the frame and
> those wet the glass down to the mullion and then they have another row of
> window sprinklers covering the area between the mullion down to the bottom
> of the frame, they've got it all covered.  It sounds logical to those not
> familiar with how these things work.
>
> But it won't work and doesn't meet the listing of the sprinklers.
>
> Sorry  but the architect either has to change the glazing and get rid of
> the mullion or get rid of the glazing altogether.  There is not a sprinkler
> fix for this.
>
> Is this glazing part of a fire rated assembly?
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 |
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:26 AM
> To: å...  
> Cc: Joe Burtell ;
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers
>
> Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.  My
> guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The
> building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
> Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal
> million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and NFPA
> required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability as a
> small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to put in
> the proper glass.
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
>
> [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
>
> Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
>
> 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
>
> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
>
> Web Site:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!QBoeZobDW-FXntlm2JDcpNp9-92LO1mrBBpJIm9eSul_7MB-0h4743FfdmDw4yrlHA$
>
> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
> price is forgotten.**”*
>
> *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
> transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
> other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
> is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this
> e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
> to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
> any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
> original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
> saving it in any manner.  Thank you.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality
> > response.
> > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> > inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the
> > downfalling water to
> >   in the case of the 

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

I wouldn't install a non-conforming component no matter who said they'd take 
liability.  For me to install it knowing it's not right still can still result 
in some level of liability no matter how much I might protest.  Unless the 
manufacturer responsible for the listing of the product issues a directive 
stating that it can be installed in this alternative manner and provides the 
specific installation guidelines, then and only then would I install it.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

Agree 100%.  Follow the Listing - period.

If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them provide 
direction and assume all liability.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org
 
 

   


*Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*

*AFSA Summer Sale!*

For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its on-demand 
recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought leaders, AFSA 
On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability to earn CEU and 
CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm22r8lfM0g$
  to learn more.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum < 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.
> My guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present.
> The building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
> Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal
> million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and
> NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the
> liability as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend
> the money to put in the proper glass.
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
>
> [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
>
> Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
>
> 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
>
> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
>
> Web Site:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7lt
> Teg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23_OhSm2w
> $
>
> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of
> low price is forgotten.**”*
>
> *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This
> e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail
> transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain
> confidential information that is legally privileged.  If you are not
> the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or
> agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution,
> copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information
> contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited.  If
> you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
> original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or 
> saving it in any manner.  Thank you.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a
> > higher-quality response.
> > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> > inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes
> > the downfalling water to
> >   in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane,
> > leaving lower sections starkly unwetted.
> >  in the 

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

The horizontal mullions create a horizontal barrier to the water run-down of 
the window sprinklers.  So the architect is probably figuring that if they have 
window sprinklers located up high near the top of the frame and those wet the 
glass down to the mullion and then they have another row of window sprinklers 
covering the area between the mullion down to the bottom of the frame, they've 
got it all covered.  It sounds logical to those not familiar with how these 
things work.

But it won't work and doesn't meet the listing of the sprinklers.

Sorry  but the architect either has to change the glazing and get rid of the 
mullion or get rid of the glazing altogether.  There is not a sprinkler fix for 
this.

Is this glazing part of a fire rated assembly?

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:26 AM
To: å...  
Cc: Joe Burtell ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers

Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.  My guess 
is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The building code 
requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal million, 
it is now void of it's listing which the building code and NFPA required to be 
listed for such use. The last part is the liability as a small contractor. The 
architect does not want to spend the money to put in the proper glass.

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!QBoeZobDW-FXntlm2JDcpNp9-92LO1mrBBpJIm9eSul_7MB-0h4743FfdmDw4yrlHA$

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low 
price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended 
only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail 
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other 
information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is 
legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail 
transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the 
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, 
distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the 
information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited.  If 
you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify 
us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission 
as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner.  Thank 
you.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:

>
>
> Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality
> response.
> I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the
> downfalling water to
>   in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane,
> leaving lower sections starkly unwetted.
>  in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the
> primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal
> mullion direly so.
>
> Having said that...  the words of Peter Drucker come to mind   "nothing is
> so useless as to do something that is not needed."
> Depending upon where the windows are located:
>   A.   is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window
> sprinklers in the first place?
> This is not a trivial question.  It is for this very reason we
> do not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets...
> The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from
> heaven, job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane
> black-&-white Code regurgitation.
>   B.  Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier,
> which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined
> with reasoning in A.
>
> Consideration from different angles:
>   Forest-for-the trees... as well as
>   the devil-is-in-the-details...
>
> Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe!
> Scot Deal
> Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering
> gms:  + 420 606 872 129
>
>
>
>
___
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Re: Window Sprinklers

[John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum]

Agree 100%.  Follow the Listing - period.

If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them
provide direction and assume all liability.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org



   

*Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*

*AFSA Summer Sale!*

For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its
on-demand recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought
leaders, AFSA On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability
to earn CEU and CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit
http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand to learn more.


On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.  My
> guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The
> building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
> Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the
> horizontal million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code
> and NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability
> as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to
> put in the proper glass.
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*
>
> [image: Burtell Fire_Small]
>
> Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*
>
> 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101
>
> Email: j...@burtellfire.com
>
> Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com
>
> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
> price is forgotten.**”*
>
> *NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
> intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
> transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
> other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
> is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this
> e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
> to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
> dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
> any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
> immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
> original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
> saving it in any manner.  Thank you.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality
> > response.
> > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> > inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the
> > downfalling water to
> >   in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, leaving
> > lower sections starkly unwetted.
> >  in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the
> > primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal
> > mullion direly so.
> >
> > Having said that...  the words of Peter Drucker come to mind   "nothing
> is
> > so useless as to do something that is not needed."
> > Depending upon where the windows are located:
> >   A.   is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window
> > sprinklers in the first place?
> > This is not a trivial question.  It is for this very reason we do
> > not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets...
> > The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from heaven,
> > job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane
> black-&-white
> > Code regurgitation.
> >   B.  Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier,
> > which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined
> with
> > reasoning in A.
> >
> > Consideration from different angles:
> >   Forest-for-the trees... as well as
> >   the devil-is-in-the-details...
> >
> > Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe!
> > Scot Deal
> > Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering
> > gms:  + 420 606 872 129
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
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Re: Window Sprinklers

[Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum]

Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions.  My
guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The
building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers.
Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the
horizontal million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code
and NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability
as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to
put in the proper glass.

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com

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On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å...   wrote:

>
>
> Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality
> response.
> I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
> inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the
> downfalling water to
>   in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, leaving
> lower sections starkly unwetted.
>  in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the
> primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal
> mullion direly so.
>
> Having said that...  the words of Peter Drucker come to mind   "nothing is
> so useless as to do something that is not needed."
> Depending upon where the windows are located:
>   A.   is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window
> sprinklers in the first place?
> This is not a trivial question.  It is for this very reason we do
> not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets...
> The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from heaven,
> job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane black-&-white
> Code regurgitation.
>   B.  Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier,
> which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined with
> reasoning in A.
>
> Consideration from different angles:
>   Forest-for-the trees... as well as
>   the devil-is-in-the-details...
>
> Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe!
> Scot Deal
> Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering
> gms:  + 420 606 872 129
>
>
>
>
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RE: Window Sprinklers

[Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum]

I would ask - what would the lower sprinklers do?  It seems like higher level 
sprinklers would go off first and then prevent the lower ones from operating. 
As you mentioned, they are not listed for that application.

I have had the discussion before: If you want a fire rating, and a window, you 
have to make some compromises.

Matt 

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 8:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Joe Burtell 
Subject: Window Sprinklers

I have an architect that wants to put additional window sprinklers below a 
horizontal mullion. I am absolutely against this idea as it's not listed or 
approved for this. Has anyone run into this situation?

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: 
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.burtellfire.com=E,1,vvE4-kU04XJEa_TSCBo0ppTnt4kM3l2UkAFdXCRt9jYvyMUd7t3lfyicebE_9UnUpPK7VlmMuNbbBd1sgVs1sh_SdFltZGgbg7aSBk0CH54,=1

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low 
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Window Sprinklers

[å . . . . . . . via Sprinklerforum]

Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality
response.
I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2).
inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the
downfalling water to
  in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, leaving
lower sections starkly unwetted.
 in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the
primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal
mullion direly so.

Having said that...  the words of Peter Drucker come to mind   "nothing is
so useless as to do something that is not needed."
Depending upon where the windows are located:
  A.   is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window
sprinklers in the first place?
This is not a trivial question.  It is for this very reason we do
not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets...
The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from heaven,
job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane black-&-white
Code regurgitation.
  B.  Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier,
which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined with
reasoning in A.

Consideration from different angles:
  Forest-for-the trees... as well as
  the devil-is-in-the-details...

Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe!
Scot Deal
Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering
gms:  + 420 606 872 129
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Window Sprinklers

[Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum]

I have an architect that wants to put additional window sprinklers below a
horizontal mullion. I am absolutely against this idea as it's not listed or
approved for this. Has anyone run into this situation?

Best regards,

*Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS*

[image: Burtell Fire_Small]

Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>*

116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101

Email: j...@burtellfire.com

Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com

*“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
price is forgotten.**”*

*NOTICE:*  The information contained in this e-mail transmission is
intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.  This e-mail
transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or
other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that
is legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient of this
e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it
to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or
any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited.  If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please
immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the
original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or
saving it in any manner.  Thank you.
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