Re: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?

2020-02-17 Thread AKS-Gmail-IMAP via Sprinklerforum 
The elephant in the corner is the required containment if there is that 
building code requirement. How that is accomplished is a function of the fire 
protection application rate. There could be a pretty big oops going on.

> On Feb 17, 2020, at 1:12 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> Understood.  I wasn’t sure if this was something that got dumped on you as it 
> seems that if the issue has the word “fire” in it, it is assumed to be a fire 
> protection issue.  Sometimes it’s hard to convince others who just don’t know 
> any better that we don’t design, specify or install fire places, fire trucks, 
> fire stops, fire doors, fire dampers, etc., etc.. 
>  
> A 3-hour fire separation requirement under these conditions, wow! 
>  
> Thanks for the kind words on that article.  It was fun to write but difficult 
> in trying to figure out how to jam so much information into a limited number 
> of words.  It was the tip of the iceberg so to speak when it comes to dealing 
> with special hazard conditions.
>  
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com <mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | www.jacobs.com 
> <http://www.jacobs.com/>
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
>  
> From: Vince Sabolik  
> Sent: Monday, February 17, 2020 1:32 PM
> To: Prahl, Craig/GVL ; 
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?
>  
> Thanks, Craig -
> 
> First, I'm not going to consult here; I avoid consulting for a variety of 
> reasons. 
> I'm going to do this the old fashioned way and provide a design as specified 
> by the insurance underwriter.
> 
> However, to refresh my knowledge of the process I read your article from 
> Sprinkler Age,  June 2017 
> "Surround and Drown" before I went to the meeting. Thanks for a great read!
> 
> There is an underwriter available here, but the owner indicated that he was 
> told by the architect that
> he had to furnish the 3 hour wall described. I have seen this once, maybe 
> twice in a very long career, hence
> my curiosity of the rating requirement. 
> 
> Thank you for the article and response.
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/17/2020 1:09 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL wrote:
> When dealing with separations and H occupancies, there are numerous factors 
> involved when determining separation requirements.  There is not a simple, 
> short yes or no to your question.  H4 typically doesn’t automatically require 
> a fire rated separation just because it’s an H occupancy.  
>  
> Per the Bldg/Fire codes, S-2 doesn’t require sprinklers, it’s assumed to be a 
> low hazard storage.  H4 is typically health hazards like toxics, highly 
> toxics, corrosives.  No ignitables under H-4, they’d be H2 or H3.  But you 
> could still have ignitables present, just under the Max. Allowable 
> quantities.  If you’re responsible for determining design criteria you should 
> get a chemical inventory.  Also, if the H4 occupancy is driven by corrosives, 
> there is a high likelihood that you could have plastic containers like totes 
> or drums.  Might be good to ask about that and if they plan to store any 
> containers in the H4 area as it could affect the sprinkler design criteria.  
>  
> If there’s an architect involved I’d ask them about the fire rating of the 
> separation wall especially if you have to penetrate it and fire stop your 
> penetrations.  
>  
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com <mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>| www.jacobs.com 
> <http://www.jacobs.com/>
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum  
> <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Vince 
> Sabolik via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Monday, February 17, 2020 11:54 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Cc: Vince Sabolik  <mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?
>  
> Good morning Forum -
> 
> This is a new one on me. 
> 
> A building with two Use Groups, H4, S2 is separated by a wall and is fully 
> sprinklered
> per NFPA.
> 
> Does the separating wall need to be rated?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
> Strongsville, Ohio 44136 
> Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601
> 
> Vince Sabolik
>  
> 
> NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged 
> information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, 
> copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended 
&g

RE: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?

2020-02-17 Thread Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum 
Understood.  I wasn’t sure if this was something that got dumped on you as it 
seems that if the issue has the word “fire” in it, it is assumed to be a fire 
protection issue.  Sometimes it’s hard to convince others who just don’t know 
any better that we don’t design, specify or install fire places, fire trucks, 
fire stops, fire doors, fire dampers, etc., etc..

A 3-hour fire separation requirement under these conditions, wow!

Thanks for the kind words on that article.  It was fun to write but difficult 
in trying to figure out how to jam so much information into a limited number of 
words.  It was the tip of the iceberg so to speak when it comes to dealing with 
special hazard conditions.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<http://www.jacobs.com/>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

From: Vince Sabolik 
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2020 1:32 PM
To: Prahl, Craig/GVL ; 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?

Thanks, Craig -

First, I'm not going to consult here; I avoid consulting for a variety of 
reasons.
I'm going to do this the old fashioned way and provide a design as specified by 
the insurance underwriter.

However, to refresh my knowledge of the process I read your article from 
Sprinkler Age,  June 2017
"Surround and Drown" before I went to the meeting. Thanks for a great read!

There is an underwriter available here, but the owner indicated that he was 
told by the architect that
he had to furnish the 3 hour wall described. I have seen this once, maybe twice 
in a very long career, hence
my curiosity of the rating requirement.

Thank you for the article and response.



On 2/17/2020 1:09 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL wrote:
When dealing with separations and H occupancies, there are numerous factors 
involved when determining separation requirements.  There is not a simple, 
short yes or no to your question.  H4 typically doesn’t automatically require a 
fire rated separation just because it’s an H occupancy.

Per the Bldg/Fire codes, S-2 doesn’t require sprinklers, it’s assumed to be a 
low hazard storage.  H4 is typically health hazards like toxics, highly toxics, 
corrosives.  No ignitables under H-4, they’d be H2 or H3.  But you could still 
have ignitables present, just under the Max. Allowable quantities.  If you’re 
responsible for determining design criteria you should get a chemical 
inventory.  Also, if the H4 occupancy is driven by corrosives, there is a high 
likelihood that you could have plastic containers like totes or drums.  Might 
be good to ask about that and if they plan to store any containers in the H4 
area as it could affect the sprinkler design criteria.

If there’s an architect involved I’d ask them about the fire rating of the 
separation wall especially if you have to penetrate it and fire stop your 
penetrations.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>| 
www.jacobs.com<http://www.jacobs.com/>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

From: Sprinklerforum 
<mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>
 On Behalf Of Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2020 11:54 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Vince Sabolik <mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?

Good morning Forum -

This is a new one on me.

A building with two Use Groups, H4, S2 is separated by a wall and is fully 
sprinklered
per NFPA.

Does the separating wall need to be rated?

--
[cid:image001.jpg@01D5E59B.9C7A9AF0]
11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601

Vince Sabolik



NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or 
distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify 
us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.

--
[cid:image003.jpg@01D5E59B.9C7A9AF0]
11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601

Vince Sabolik



NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or 
distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify 
us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
___

Re: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?

2020-02-17 Thread Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum 

Thanks, Craig -

First, I'm not going to consult here; I avoid consulting for a variety 
of reasons.
I'm going to do this the old fashioned way and provide a design as 
specified by the insurance underwriter.


However, to refresh my knowledge of the process I read your article from 
Sprinkler Age,  June 2017

"Surround and Drown" before I went to the meeting. Thanks for a great read!

There is an underwriter available here, but the owner indicated that he 
was told by the architect that
he had to furnish the 3 hour wall described. I have seen this once, 
maybe twice in a very long career, hence

my curiosity of the rating requirement.

Thank you for the article and response.



On 2/17/2020 1:09 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL wrote:


When dealing with separations and H occupancies, there are numerous 
factors involved when determining separation requirements.There is not 
a simple, short yes or no to your question.H4 typically doesn’t 
automatically require a fire rated separation just because it’s an H 
occupancy.


Per the Bldg/Fire codes, S-2 doesn’t require sprinklers, it’s assumed 
to be a low hazard storage.H4 is typically health hazards like toxics, 
highly toxics, corrosives.No ignitables under H-4, they’d be H2 or 
H3.But you could still have ignitables present, just under the Max. 
Allowable quantities.If you’re responsible for determining design 
criteria you should get a chemical inventory.Also, if the H4 occupancy 
is driven by corrosives, there is a high likelihood that you could 
have plastic containers like totes or drums.Might be good to ask about 
that and if they plan to store any containers in the H4 area as it 
could affect the sprinkler design criteria.


If there’s an architect involved I’d ask them about the fire rating of 
the separation wall especially if you have to penetrate it and fire 
stop your penetrations.


Craig Prahl |Jacobs| Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com <mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com>|www.jacobs.com 
<http://www.jacobs.com/>


1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

*From:*Sprinklerforum  
*On Behalf Of *Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum

*Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2020 11:54 AM
*To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
*Cc:* Vince Sabolik 
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?

Good morning Forum -

This is a new one on me.

A building with two Use Groups, H4, S2 is separated by a wall and is 
fully sprinklered

per NFPA.

Does the separating wall need to be rated?

--

11351 Pearl Road / Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601

/
Vince Sabolik /




NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged 
information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any 
viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by 
unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received 
this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the 
message and deleting it from your computer.



--

11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876Cell 440 724-7601

/
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RE: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?

2020-02-17 Thread Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum 
When dealing with separations and H occupancies, there are numerous factors 
involved when determining separation requirements.  There is not a simple, 
short yes or no to your question.  H4 typically doesn’t automatically require a 
fire rated separation just because it’s an H occupancy.

Per the Bldg/Fire codes, S-2 doesn’t require sprinklers, it’s assumed to be a 
low hazard storage.  H4 is typically health hazards like toxics, highly toxics, 
corrosives.  No ignitables under H-4, they’d be H2 or H3.  But you could still 
have ignitables present, just under the Max. Allowable quantities.  If you’re 
responsible for determining design criteria you should get a chemical 
inventory.  Also, if the H4 occupancy is driven by corrosives, there is a high 
likelihood that you could have plastic containers like totes or drums.  Might 
be good to ask about that and if they plan to store any containers in the H4 
area as it could affect the sprinkler design criteria.

If there’s an architect involved I’d ask them about the fire rating of the 
separation wall especially if you have to penetrate it and fire stop your 
penetrations.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com<mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
www.jacobs.com<http://www.jacobs.com/>
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2020 11:54 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Vince Sabolik 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Anybody hit this wall?

Good morning Forum -

This is a new one on me.

A building with two Use Groups, H4, S2 is separated by a wall and is fully 
sprinklered
per NFPA.

Does the separating wall need to be rated?

--
[cid:image002.jpg@01D5E590.FEF41CC0]
11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601

Vince Sabolik



NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or 
distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify 
us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
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Re: Anybody hit this wall?

2020-02-17 Thread Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum 
  
  

  Scot beat me to it. It is a Code issue and the AHJ and the insurance company 
will have input. If it is not your expertise, keep away from it. There may also 
be restrictions on pipe penetrations as well.
  
  
  
 Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
  
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Feb 17, 2020 at 12:04 PM,   (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>  wrote:
>   
>   
> 
> Thanks Scot ... a great example of why I'm not an architect. Could the rating 
> be 3 hr WITH sprinkler?
>   
>   
>  On 2/17/2020 11:56 AM, å...  via Sprinklerforum wrote:
>   
> > 
> >   
> > Building code resolves, by height  &  area limits, construction type, etc.  
> >   H-areas by definition, usually have rated walls.
> >   
> > Scot Deal
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> > On Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 8:53 AM Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum  
> >  > (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>  wrote:
> >   
> > >   
> > > Good morning Forum -
> > >   
> > >  This is a new one on me.
> > >   
> > >  A building with two Use Groups, H4, S2 is separated by a wall and is 
> > > fully sprinklered
> > >  per NFPA.
> > >   
> > >  Does the separating wall need to be rated?
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > > --
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >
> > >   11351 Pearl Road /Suite 101
> > >  Strongsville, Ohio 44136   
> > >  Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876  Cell 440 724-7601
> > >
> > >   
> > >
> > >
> > >  Vince Sabolik
> > >
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   
> > >  ___
> > >  Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > >   Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> > > (mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)
> > >   
> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> > >   
> > 
> >  ___ Sprinklerforum mailing 
> > list  Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> > (mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)   
> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> >
>
>   
>   
>   
> --
>   
>   
> 
>   
>
>  11351 Pearl Road /Suite 101
>  Strongsville, Ohio 44136 
>  Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876  Cell 440 724-7601
>
>   
>
>   
>  Vince Sabolik
>
>   
>   
>   
>  ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list 
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Re: Anybody hit this wall?

2020-02-17 Thread Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum 
Thanks Scot ... a great example of why I'm not an architect. Could the 
rating be 3 hr WITH sprinkler?



On 2/17/2020 11:56 AM, å...  via Sprinklerforum wrote:
Building code resolves, by height & area limits, construction type, 
etc.  H-areas by definition, usually have rated walls.

Scot Deal

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 8:53 AM Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum 
> wrote:


Good morning Forum -

This is a new one on me.

A building with two Use Groups, H4, S2 is separated by a wall and
is fully sprinklered
per NFPA.

Does the separating wall need to be rated?


-- 


11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876Cell 440 724-7601

/
Vince Sabolik /

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--

11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876Cell 440 724-7601

/
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Re: Anybody hit this wall?

2020-02-17 Thread å . . . . . . . via Sprinklerforum 
Building code resolves, by height & area limits, construction type, etc.
H-areas by definition, usually have rated walls.

Scot Deal

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 8:53 AM Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Good morning Forum -
>
> This is a new one on me.
>
> A building with two Use Groups, H4, S2 is separated by a wall and is fully
> sprinklered
> per NFPA.
>
> Does the separating wall need to be rated?
>
>
> --
>
> 11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
> Strongsville, Ohio 44136
> Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601
>
>
> * Vince Sabolik *
> ___
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>
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>
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Anybody hit this wall?

2020-02-17 Thread Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum 

Good morning Forum -

This is a new one on me.

A building with two Use Groups, H4, S2 is separated by a wall and is 
fully sprinklered

per NFPA.

Does the separating wall need to be rated?


--

11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876Cell 440 724-7601

/
Vince Sabolik /

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