Re: Dust Collection
The N95 masks that everyone is talking about means that is will filter out of 95% of the 3 microns or larger. The Covid 19 virus is approximately 0.17 microns but usually travels attached to a fluid droplet, which is larger. The thickness of a piece of paper is about 100 microns. > > On May 22, 2020 at 7:14 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote: > > > On May 22, 2020, at 2:49 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo via Sprinklerforum > (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > . for the record a micron is about the thickness of a sheet of paper. > > > > > > > > No way. Is not a micron a millionth of a meter? A meter is about 39 inches. > That means an inch is slightly more than 25641 microns. I’ve got an unopened > ream of printer paper here that is 2 1/8” thick and it consists of 500 > sheets. Say it is 2” thick to make the numbers easier. So 1” is 250 sheets, > not 25641 sheets. A micron being the thickness of a sheet of paper is two > orders of magnitude off the mark. You meant to say a micron is about one > hundredth the thickness of a sheet of paper. A lot of microns can fit on the > head of a pin. > ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: Dust Collection
On May 22, 2020, at 2:49 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo via Sprinklerforum wrote: > > . for the record a micron is about the thickness of a sheet of paper. > No way. Is not a micron a millionth of a meter? A meter is about 39 inches. That means an inch is slightly more than 25641 microns. I’ve got an unopened ream of printer paper here that is 2 1/8” thick and it consists of 500 sheets. Say it is 2” thick to make the numbers easier. So 1” is 250 sheets, not 25641 sheets. A micron being the thickness of a sheet of paper is two orders of magnitude off the mark. You meant to say a micron is about one hundredth the thickness of a sheet of paper. A lot of microns can fit on the head of a pin.___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: Dust Collection
Now that’s is just funny but unfortunately is sometimes typical for a technical committee. Happy Memorial Day weekend. John John August Denhardt, P.E. Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler Association 301-343-1457 > On May 22, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo via Sprinklerforum > wrote: > > > To lighten the mood as we go into Memorial Day weekend > > Sometime around 2007, there was a rather large discussion on the size of a > piece of combustible dust. The standards are not aligned (see 'combustible > dust' in the Glossary of Terms). The argument, I mean debate, of the floor > of the worldwide NFPA Technical Meeting was intense. People got very > emotional about how many microns it takes to be an official dust particulate. > From all sides of the room came shouts of "360 microns", "400 microns", "500 > microns", and what seemed HUGE: "600 microns". for the record a micron is > about the thickness of a sheet of paper. > > The debate went for what seemed like hours! (it was about 60 minutes) And the > vote failed to change anything > > I could listen to hours and hours of fire sprinkler debate, but I was dyin' > that day!! > > > > > > > It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA, > and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the > NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be > considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor > any of their technical committees. > > Sincerely, > > > Cecil Bilbo, president > Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology > Champaign, IL > 217.607.0325 > www.sprinkleracademy.com > ce...@sprinkleracademy.com > ?? > OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!! > > > From: Sprinklerforum on > behalf of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum > > Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 12:36 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > Cc: Ron Greenman > Subject: Dust Collection > > Does anyone know the NFPA references for dust ducting and collection for > compressed paper laminate production? I am home (of course) and my books are > 75 miles away. Thanks. > > > Ron Greenman > > rongreen...@gmail.com > > 253.576.9700 > > The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner > Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: Dust Collection
To lighten the mood as we go into Memorial Day weekend Sometime around 2007, there was a rather large discussion on the size of a piece of combustible dust. The standards are not aligned (see 'combustible dust' in the Glossary of Terms). The argument, I mean debate, of the floor of the worldwide NFPA Technical Meeting was intense. People got very emotional about how many microns it takes to be an official dust particulate. From all sides of the room came shouts of "360 microns", "400 microns", "500 microns", and what seemed HUGE: "600 microns". for the record a micron is about the thickness of a sheet of paper. The debate went for what seemed like hours! (it was about 60 minutes) And the vote failed to change anything I could listen to hours and hours of fire sprinkler debate, but I was dyin' that day!! It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo, president Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Champaign, IL 217.607.0325 www.sprinkleracademy.com<http://www.sprinkleracademy.com> ce...@sprinkleracademy.com<mailto:ce...@sprinkleracademy.com> ?? OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!! From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 12:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Ron Greenman Subject: Dust Collection Does anyone know the NFPA references for dust ducting and collection for compressed paper laminate production? I am home (of course) and my books are 75 miles away. Thanks. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dust Collection
These might also be applicable… NFPA 652: Standard on the Fundamentals of Combustible Dust NFPA 664: Standard for the Prevention of Fires and Explosions in Wood Processing and Woodworking Facilities Reed A. Roisum, SET | KFI Engineers | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | KFIengineers.com<http://www.kfiengineers.com> From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Scott Futrell via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 12:59 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Scott Futrell ; Ron Greenman Subject: RE: Dust Collection NFPA 91: Standard for Exhaust Systems for Air Conveying of Vapors, Gases, Mists, and Particulate Solids NFPA 654: Standard for the Prevention of Fire and Dust Explosions from the Manufacturing, Processing, and Handling of Combustible Particulate Solids Does that help? Scott Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2 Cell: (612) 759-5556 From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 12:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Ron Greenman mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com>> Subject: Dust Collection Does anyone know the NFPA references for dust ducting and collection for compressed paper laminate production? I am home (of course) and my books are 75 miles away. Thanks. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) __ This email originated from an external source and has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dust Collection
NFPA 91: Standard for Exhaust Systems for Air Conveying of Vapors, Gases, Mists, and Particulate Solids NFPA 654: Standard for the Prevention of Fire and Dust Explosions from the Manufacturing, Processing, and Handling of Combustible Particulate Solids Does that help? Scott Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2 Cell: (612) 759-5556 From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 12:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Ron Greenman Subject: Dust Collection Does anyone know the NFPA references for dust ducting and collection for compressed paper laminate production? I am home (of course) and my books are 75 miles away. Thanks. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com<mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com> 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Dust Collection
Does anyone know the NFPA references for dust ducting and collection for compressed paper laminate production? I am home (of course) and my books are 75 miles away. Thanks. Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required
I have looked through the California editions of International Fire Code and Building Code and cannot find any prescriptives for sprinklers in dust collection systems in woodworking facilities. Does anyone know where the triggers are published, if anywhere? Is it in NFPA 664? Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING 2851 Camino del Rio South, Suite 400 San Diego, CA 92108 - Ph: 858.751.2930 - ext. 102 Fax:858.751.2933 Cell: 619.972.5696 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required
Got it - thanks. Steve -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required IFC - 903.2.11.4 Ducts conveying hazardous exhausts. IMC - 510.7 Suppression required. Ducts shall be protected with an approved automatic fire suppression system installed in accordance with the International Building Code. [F] 510.2.1 Lumber yards and woodworking facilities. Equipment or machinery located inside buildings at lumber yards and woodworking facilities which generates or emits combustible dust shall be provided with an approved dust-collection and exhaust system installed in conformance with this section and the International Fire Code. Equipment and systems that are used to collect, process or convey combustible dusts shall be provided with an approved explosion-control system. There are several interpretations out there of what to actually do - sprinklers (IMC 510.7), sprinkler and explosion venting(IMC 510.7 and 510.2.1), spark suppression systems (IMC 510.2.1) Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 11:33 AM To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org Subject: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required I have looked through the California editions of International Fire Code and Building Code and cannot find any prescriptives for sprinklers in dust collection systems in woodworking facilities. Does anyone know where the triggers are published, if anywhere? Is it in NFPA 664? Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING 2851 Camino del Rio South, Suite 400 San Diego, CA 92108 - Ph: 858.751.2930 - ext. 102 Fax:858.751.2933 Cell: 619.972.5696 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required
Steve, Section 506.6 of the Mechanical Code requires sprinklers inside ducts exceeding 10-inches that convey flammable vapors or fumes, but I cannot find a similar mandate for ducts conveying sawdust in either NFPA 664, CBC or CFC. Interestingly, NFPA 664 speaks about duct sprinklers free of debris where provided, but there is no mandate to actually provide duct protection. I used to work for a large aerospace firm and I don't recall any of the ducts having sprinklers, except those that conveyed flammable vapors. Galen Taylor County of Los Angeles Fire Department Fire Prevention Engineering 323-890-4339 galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:33 AM To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org Subject: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required I have looked through the California editions of International Fire Code and Building Code and cannot find any prescriptives for sprinklers in dust collection systems in woodworking facilities. Does anyone know where the triggers are published, if anywhere? Is it in NFPA 664? Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING 2851 Camino del Rio South, Suite 400 San Diego, CA 92108 - Ph: 858.751.2930 - ext. 102 Fax:858.751.2933 Cell: 619.972.5696 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required
Thanks Galen - this exactly the same info I arrived at through my own process this morning. It's a DSA project where and existing dust collection system was moved from an old non sprinklered wood shop building into an interim housing environment. It originally had a couple sprinklers in it, piped from domestic water as the shell building was not protected. Now they want to move this same system back into the new permanent disability, which is fully sprinklered. My advice to them is simply to move it without protection and let someone tell us that sprinklers are required and cite the appropriate code sections that mandates it. DSA doen't have and IR for this, so its all purely subjective it seems. Steve Taylor, Galen galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov wrote: Steve, Section 506.6 of the Mechanical Code requires sprinklers inside ducts exceeding 10-inches that convey flammable vapors or fumes, but I cannot find a similar mandate for ducts conveying sawdust in either NFPA 664, CBC or CFC. Interestingly, NFPA 664 speaks about duct sprinklers free of debris where provided, but there is no mandate to actually provide duct protection. I used to work for a large aerospace firm and I don't recall any of the ducts having sprinklers, except those that conveyed flammable vapors. Galen Taylor County of Los Angeles Fire Department Fire Prevention Engineering 323-890-4339 galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:33 AM To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org Subject: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required I have looked through the California editions of International Fire Code and Building Code and cannot find any prescriptives for sprinklers in dust collection systems in woodworking facilities. Does anyone know where the triggers are published, if anywhere? Is it in NFPA 664? Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING 2851 Camino del Rio South, Suite 400 San Diego, CA 92108 - Ph: 858.751.2930 - ext. 102 Fax:858.751.2933 Cell: 619.972.5696 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.o rg ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.o rg ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required
IFC - 903.2.11.4 Ducts conveying hazardous exhausts. IMC - 510.7 Suppression required. Ducts shall be protected with an approved automatic fire suppression system installed in accordance with the International Building Code. [F] 510.2.1 Lumber yards and woodworking facilities. Equipment or machinery located inside buildings at lumber yards and woodworking facilities which generates or emits combustible dust shall be provided with an approved dust-collection and exhaust system installed in conformance with this section and the International Fire Code. Equipment and systems that are used to collect, process or convey combustible dusts shall be provided with an approved explosion-control system. There are several interpretations out there of what to actually do - sprinklers (IMC 510.7), sprinkler and explosion venting(IMC 510.7 and 510.2.1), spark suppression systems (IMC 510.2.1) Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 11:33 AM To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org Subject: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required I have looked through the California editions of International Fire Code and Building Code and cannot find any prescriptives for sprinklers in dust collection systems in woodworking facilities. Does anyone know where the triggers are published, if anywhere? Is it in NFPA 664? Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING 2851 Camino del Rio South, Suite 400 San Diego, CA 92108 - Ph: 858.751.2930 - ext. 102 Fax:858.751.2933 Cell: 619.972.5696 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required
A how to, not a when, but: NFPA 68: Standard on Explosion Protection by Deflagration Venting. On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.comwrote: Thanks Galen - this exactly the same info I arrived at through my own process this morning. It's a DSA project where and existing dust collection system was moved from an old non sprinklered wood shop building into an interim housing environment. It originally had a couple sprinklers in it, piped from domestic water as the shell building was not protected. Now they want to move this same system back into the new permanent disability, which is fully sprinklered. My advice to them is simply to move it without protection and let someone tell us that sprinklers are required and cite the appropriate code sections that mandates it. DSA doen't have and IR for this, so its all purely subjective it seems. Steve Taylor, Galen galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov wrote: Steve, Section 506.6 of the Mechanical Code requires sprinklers inside ducts exceeding 10-inches that convey flammable vapors or fumes, but I cannot find a similar mandate for ducts conveying sawdust in either NFPA 664, CBC or CFC. Interestingly, NFPA 664 speaks about duct sprinklers free of debris where provided, but there is no mandate to actually provide duct protection. I used to work for a large aerospace firm and I don't recall any of the ducts having sprinklers, except those that conveyed flammable vapors. Galen Taylor County of Los Angeles Fire Department Fire Prevention Engineering 323-890-4339 galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:33 AM To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org Subject: Dust collection - where/when are sprinklers required I have looked through the California editions of International Fire Code and Building Code and cannot find any prescriptives for sprinklers in dust collection systems in woodworking facilities. Does anyone know where the triggers are published, if anywhere? Is it in NFPA 664? Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN CONSULTING 2851 Camino del Rio South, Suite 400 San Diego, CA 92108 - Ph: 858.751.2930 - ext. 102 Fax:858.751.2933 Cell: 619.972.5696 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.o rg ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.o rg ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
