Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-19 Thread Brad Casterline 
K=113.85

In the same way that a nominal 1/2" sprinkler with a Coefficient of
Discharge of .75 has a K=5.6, a nominal 2.5" hose valve with a Coefficient
of Discharge of .61 has a K=113.85.

Brad
On Feb 17, 2017 8:28 AM, "Vince Sabolik" <vi...@wtfp.net> wrote:

> Good morning, everyone...
>
> Does anybody have a decent K Factor for a 2½" hose valve?
>
> Thanks!  Vince
>
> 11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
> Strongsville, Ohio 44136
> Phone 440 238-4800 <(440)%20238-4800> Fax 440 238-4876 <(440)%20238-4876> Cell
> 440 724-7601 <(440)%20724-7601>
>
>
> * Vince Sabolik *
>
> ___
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Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-18 Thread Brad Casterline 
I often get too excited and blurt things out and reply to myself several
times with corrections and clarifications, like now:
1) I have done a lot of standpipe calcs and I use K=Q/SQRT (P) just like
everyone has said here, and I use equivalent length for the valve=31 ft.
2) What I mean by K Value should be more useful than K Factor is, for
instance, at 250 GPM eql.=23.65 ft and at 500 GPM it is 26.24 ft.
Just another example of the excellence of the NFPA Standards as standards.
And if you are pitoting a 2.5" hose valve to estimate the GPM as if it were
a hydrant butt, if my concept of K Value is correct, C=.61 should be
'decent'.
3) Coefficient of Discharge = actual measured / ideal, and that is always
less than 1.

Brad
On Feb 17, 2017 5:19 PM, "Brad Casterline" <bcasterli...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Shazbot!
> 2g=64.4
> (62.4 is the weight in pounds of a cubic foot of water).
> On Feb 17, 2017 5:05 PM, "Brad Casterline" <bcasterli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Vince,
>>
>> I think you are looking for something with a little more meat on its
>> bones than rearranging Q=K*SQRT(P). A few years ago you mentioned K Value.
>> Counselor Greenman presented this evidence:
>>
>> http://www.metropumps.com/ResourcesFrictionLossData.pdf
>>
>> The first item is Angle Valve, which might be close enough to Hose Valve,
>> but the problem is the second item is also Angle Valve with a different
>> value and I saw no clarification of what's what with that. But when Steve L
>> testified to 3-5 psi loss at 250 gpm I rearanged and I think the second one
>> is correct; K Value=2.7- - -
>>
>> Using the 5 psi loss, hf=11.55 ft.
>> I converted 250 gpm to .557 ft^3/sec and 2.5" nominal to .034 ft^2 and
>> dividing the first by the second got v= 16.38 ft/sec, squared that, divided
>> by 2g (62.4), and then divided 11.55 by that for K Value = 2.77.
>> This should be more useful for you because friction head is directly
>> proportional to the square of the velocity, and K Value is a counter part
>> of Coefficient of Discharge in that C of D = the ideal world based on
>> nominal / the reality of the measurement.
>>
>> still yours after forty years, your first grasshopper,
>>
>> Brad
>> On Feb 17, 2017 8:28 AM, "Vince Sabolik" <vi...@wtfp.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Good morning, everyone...
>>>
>>> Does anybody have a decent K Factor for a 2½" hose valve?
>>>
>>> Thanks!  Vince
>>>
>>> 11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
>>> Strongsville, Ohio 44136
>>> Phone 440 238-4800 <(440)%20238-4800> Fax 440 238-4876
>>> <(440)%20238-4876> Cell 440 724-7601 <(440)%20724-7601>
>>>
>>>
>>> * Vince Sabolik *
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f
>>> iresprinkler.org
>>>
>>>
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Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Brad Casterline 
Shazbot!
2g=64.4
(62.4 is the weight in pounds of a cubic foot of water).
On Feb 17, 2017 5:05 PM, "Brad Casterline" <bcasterli...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Vince,
>
> I think you are looking for something with a little more meat on its bones
> than rearranging Q=K*SQRT(P). A few years ago you mentioned K Value.
> Counselor Greenman presented this evidence:
>
> http://www.metropumps.com/ResourcesFrictionLossData.pdf
>
> The first item is Angle Valve, which might be close enough to Hose Valve,
> but the problem is the second item is also Angle Valve with a different
> value and I saw no clarification of what's what with that. But when Steve L
> testified to 3-5 psi loss at 250 gpm I rearanged and I think the second one
> is correct; K Value=2.7- - -
>
> Using the 5 psi loss, hf=11.55 ft.
> I converted 250 gpm to .557 ft^3/sec and 2.5" nominal to .034 ft^2 and
> dividing the first by the second got v= 16.38 ft/sec, squared that, divided
> by 2g (62.4), and then divided 11.55 by that for K Value = 2.77.
> This should be more useful for you because friction head is directly
> proportional to the square of the velocity, and K Value is a counter part
> of Coefficient of Discharge in that C of D = the ideal world based on
> nominal / the reality of the measurement.
>
> still yours after forty years, your first grasshopper,
>
> Brad
> On Feb 17, 2017 8:28 AM, "Vince Sabolik" <vi...@wtfp.net> wrote:
>
>> Good morning, everyone...
>>
>> Does anybody have a decent K Factor for a 2½" hose valve?
>>
>> Thanks!  Vince
>>
>> 11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
>> Strongsville, Ohio 44136
>> Phone 440 238-4800 <(440)%20238-4800> Fax 440 238-4876 <(440)%20238-4876> 
>> Cell
>> 440 724-7601 <(440)%20724-7601>
>>
>>
>> * Vince Sabolik *
>>
>> ___
>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-
>> firesprinkler.org
>>
>>
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Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Brad Casterline 
Vince,

I think you are looking for something with a little more meat on its bones
than rearranging Q=K*SQRT(P). A few years ago you mentioned K Value.
Counselor Greenman presented this evidence:

http://www.metropumps.com/ResourcesFrictionLossData.pdf

The first item is Angle Valve, which might be close enough to Hose Valve,
but the problem is the second item is also Angle Valve with a different
value and I saw no clarification of what's what with that. But when Steve L
testified to 3-5 psi loss at 250 gpm I rearanged and I think the second one
is correct; K Value=2.7- - -

Using the 5 psi loss, hf=11.55 ft.
I converted 250 gpm to .557 ft^3/sec and 2.5" nominal to .034 ft^2 and
dividing the first by the second got v= 16.38 ft/sec, squared that, divided
by 2g (62.4), and then divided 11.55 by that for K Value = 2.77.
This should be more useful for you because friction head is directly
proportional to the square of the velocity, and K Value is a counter part
of Coefficient of Discharge in that C of D = the ideal world based on
nominal / the reality of the measurement.

still yours after forty years, your first grasshopper,

Brad
On Feb 17, 2017 8:28 AM, "Vince Sabolik" <vi...@wtfp.net> wrote:

> Good morning, everyone...
>
> Does anybody have a decent K Factor for a 2½" hose valve?
>
> Thanks!  Vince
>
> 11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
> Strongsville, Ohio 44136
> Phone 440 238-4800 <(440)%20238-4800> Fax 440 238-4876 <(440)%20238-4876> Cell
> 440 724-7601 <(440)%20724-7601>
>
>
> * Vince Sabolik *
>
> ___
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.
> org
>
>
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RE: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Tom Duross 
K of 25 for a 250 flow at 100 and 50 for a 500 flow at 100 have always worked 
for me in doing a simple standpipe calc to verify 150 at the FDC.

 

 

That would be on the inlet side of the valve.   2½” angle and globe pattern 
hose valves have losses of 3-5 psi at 250 gpm, so the discharge side “K” at 100 
psi might be as low as 24.4 at 250 gpm.   But my point is still, why?

 

SL

 

 

Dear All

 

250gpm flow at  100psi for 2-1/2" angle valve, K-factor shall be 25 ( 
250/sqrt(100))=25




With warm regards


D.RADHAKRISHNAN

​

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RE: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Steve Leyton 
That would be on the inlet side of the valve.   2½” angle and globe pattern 
hose valves have losses of 3-5 psi at 250 gpm, so the discharge side “K” at 100 
psi might be as low as 24.4 at 250 gpm.   But my point is still, why?

SL

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Drad Duraikkannu
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:23 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

Dear All

250gpm flow at  100psi for 2-1/2" angle valve, K-factor shall be 25 ( 
250/sqrt(100))=25

With warm regards

D.RADHAKRISHNAN
​
Mobile: 00971 55 967 4864<tel:00971%2055%20967%204864>

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Glen Buelow, Inc. 
<gwb...@gmail.com<mailto:gwb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Vince,
That was not right
24.82

[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download=0B7SYmRowbxfLWWlIRHA2UmJqaFE=0B7SYmRowbxfLMHpWaGVTRjhPR0NMN3BtUVZrZWNoZlFFZzBzPQ]

Glen Buelow
Glen W. Buelow, Inc.
Fire Protection Design and Consulting
Cleveland 330.220.7201 ● Akron 330.665.4439

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Glen Buelow, Inc. 
<gwb...@gmail.com<mailto:gwb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Vince,
6.07

[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download=0B7SYmRowbxfLWWlIRHA2UmJqaFE=0B7SYmRowbxfLMHpWaGVTRjhPR0NMN3BtUVZrZWNoZlFFZzBzPQ]

Glen Buelow
Glen W. Buelow, Inc.
Fire Protection Design and Consulting
Cleveland 330.220.7201 ● Akron 330.665.4439

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Shawn Foor 
<shawn.f...@gmail.com<mailto:shawn.f...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just take your gallons divide by square root of pressure and you can get your k 
factor that way.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Vince Sabolik 
<vi...@wtfp.net<mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote:
I'm doing this by hand.


On 2/17/2017 9:35 AM, Mark Phillips wrote:
What program are you using to calc?



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Shawn Foor, SET

FOOR DESIGN, LLC
6227 S. 87TH E. AVE
TULSA, OK 74133
P:918-237-1400<tel:(918)%20237-1400>

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RE: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Steve Leyton 
What if the valve is only half-open?

Vince - why are you trying to establish a key factor for a device that can have 
infinitely variable flow rates?


Steve


 Original message 
From: "Glen Buelow, Inc." <gwb...@gmail.com>
Date: 2/17/17 7:19 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

Vince,
That was not right
24.82

[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download=0B7SYmRowbxfLWWlIRHA2UmJqaFE=0B7SYmRowbxfLMHpWaGVTRjhPR0NMN3BtUVZrZWNoZlFFZzBzPQ]

Glen Buelow
Glen W. Buelow, Inc.
Fire Protection Design and Consulting
Cleveland 330.220.7201 ● Akron 330.665.4439

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Glen Buelow, Inc. 
<gwb...@gmail.com<mailto:gwb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Vince,
6.07

[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download=0B7SYmRowbxfLWWlIRHA2UmJqaFE=0B7SYmRowbxfLMHpWaGVTRjhPR0NMN3BtUVZrZWNoZlFFZzBzPQ]

Glen Buelow
Glen W. Buelow, Inc.
Fire Protection Design and Consulting
Cleveland 330.220.7201 ● Akron 330.665.4439

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Shawn Foor 
<shawn.f...@gmail.com<mailto:shawn.f...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Just take your gallons divide by square root of pressure and you can get your k 
factor that way.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Vince Sabolik 
<vi...@wtfp.net<mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote:
I'm doing this by hand.


On 2/17/2017 9:35 AM, Mark Phillips wrote:
What program are you using to calc?



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--
Shawn Foor, SET

FOOR DESIGN, LLC
6227 S. 87TH E. AVE
TULSA, OK 74133
P:918-237-1400<tel:(918)%20237-1400>

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Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Drad Duraikkannu 
Dear All

250gpm flow at  100psi for 2-1/2" angle valve, K-factor shall be 25 (
250/sqrt(100))=25

With warm regards

*D.RADHAKRISHNAN*
​
Mobile: 00971 55 967 4864 

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Glen Buelow, Inc.  wrote:

> Vince,
> That was not right
> 24.82
>
>
>
> *Glen Bue**low*
>
> *Glen W. Buelow, Inc.*
> *Fire Protection Design and ConsultingCleveland 330.220.7201
> <330.220.7201> *●* Akron 330.665.4439 <330.665.4439>*
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Glen Buelow, Inc. 
> wrote:
>
>> Vince,
>> 6.07
>>
>>
>>
>> *Glen Bue**low*
>>
>> *Glen W. Buelow, Inc.*
>> *Fire Protection Design and ConsultingCleveland 330.220.7201
>> <330.220.7201> *●* Akron 330.665.4439 <330.665.4439>*
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Shawn Foor  wrote:
>>
>>> Just take your gallons divide by square root of pressure and you can get
>>> your k factor that way.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Vince Sabolik  wrote:
>>>
 I'm doing this by hand.


 On 2/17/2017 9:35 AM, Mark Phillips wrote:

 What program are you using to calc?





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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Shawn Foor, SET
>>>
>>> *FOOR DESIGN, LLC*
>>> *6227 S. 87TH E. AVE*
>>> *TULSA, OK 74133*
>>> *P:918-237-1400 <(918)%20237-1400>*
>>>
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>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f
>>> iresprinkler.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Glen Buelow, Inc. 
Vince,
That was not right
24.82



*Glen Bue**low*

*Glen W. Buelow, Inc.*
*Fire Protection Design and ConsultingCleveland 330.220.7201 <330.220.7201>
*●* Akron 330.665.4439 <330.665.4439>*

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Glen Buelow, Inc. 
wrote:

> Vince,
> 6.07
>
>
>
> *Glen Bue**low*
>
> *Glen W. Buelow, Inc.*
> *Fire Protection Design and ConsultingCleveland 330.220.7201
> <330.220.7201> *●* Akron 330.665.4439 <330.665.4439>*
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Shawn Foor  wrote:
>
>> Just take your gallons divide by square root of pressure and you can get
>> your k factor that way.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Vince Sabolik  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm doing this by hand.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/17/2017 9:35 AM, Mark Phillips wrote:
>>>
>>> What program are you using to calc?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f
>>> iresprinkler.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shawn Foor, SET
>>
>> *FOOR DESIGN, LLC*
>> *6227 S. 87TH E. AVE*
>> *TULSA, OK 74133*
>> *P:918-237-1400 <(918)%20237-1400>*
>>
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Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Shawn Foor 
Just take your gallons divide by square root of pressure and you can get
your k factor that way.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Vince Sabolik  wrote:

> I'm doing this by hand.
>
>
> On 2/17/2017 9:35 AM, Mark Phillips wrote:
>
> What program are you using to calc?
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
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*FOOR DESIGN, LLC*
*6227 S. 87TH E. AVE*
*TULSA, OK 74133*
*P:918-237-1400*
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Re: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Vince Sabolik 

I'm doing this by hand.


On 2/17/2017 9:35 AM, Mark Phillips wrote:


What program are you using to calc?



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RE: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Mark Phillips 
What program are you using to calc?

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Vince Sabolik
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: K for a 2½" Hose Valve

Good morning, everyone...

Does anybody have a decent K Factor for a 2½" hose valve?

Thanks!  Vince
[cid:image001.jpg@01D28901.30315E00]
11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601

Vince Sabolik
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K for a 2½" Hose Valve

2017-02-17 Thread Vince Sabolik 

Good morning, everyone...

Does anybody have a decent K Factor for a 2½" hose valve?

Thanks!  Vince

11351 Pearl Road /  Suite 101
Strongsville, Ohio 44136
Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876Cell 440 724-7601

/
Vince Sabolik /

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