Re: Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-12 Thread Forest Wilson 
Besides a false impression upon building occupants (many of whom don't
notice sprinklers anyway), one must consider false impressions upon first
responders or insurance agents.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:39 AM, Frans Stoop  wrote:

> Gentlemen,
>
> Thank you very much.
> I overlooked the phrase NFPA 1 and NFPA 101 and the Annexes.
> In particular the Annex is very clear.
>
> The IFC does not apply in our country, but I will use the quoted phrase to
> emphasize that it is common practice in our profession to avoid a false
> impression of safety or fire protection by visible but non-functional
> devices.
>
> Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,
>
> Frans Stoop
> Riskonet B.V.
> Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
> T +31 6542 37 642
> www.riskonet.com
> frans.st...@riskonet.com
>
>
> At 22:13 11-4-2016 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Eventually, we all run into this construction cart-before-the-horse
>> phasing situation where you just cannot say no to the client. Once, using
>> the defense that those observing fire sprinklers who would know what a fire
>> sprinkler looks like in order to perceive a space as being protected by
>> fire protection equipment, the exposed construction, unconnected upright
>> sprinklers were to be installed with florescent yellow tennis balls split
>> open and placed over each sprinkler. Perhaps that put a grin on some
>> sprinkler fitter.
>>
>> Allans Seidel
>> St. Louis, MO
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 11, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Foster, Ed  wrote:
>> >
>> > The International Fire Code; Section 901.4 Installation may apply.
>> > And Section 901.4.5 Reads:
>> > Appearance of equipment. Any device that has the physical appearance of
>> life safety or fire protection equipment but does not perform that life
>> safety or fire protection function shall be prohibited.
>>
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>
>
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Re: Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-12 Thread Frans Stoop 

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much.
I overlooked the phrase NFPA 1 and NFPA 101 and the Annexes.
In particular the Annex is very clear.

The IFC does not apply in our country, but I will use the quoted 
phrase to emphasize that it is common practice in our profession to 
avoid a false impression of safety or fire protection by visible but 
non-functional devices.


Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,

Frans Stoop
Riskonet B.V.
Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
T +31 6542 37 642
www.riskonet.com
frans.st...@riskonet.com


At 22:13 11-4-2016 -0500, you wrote:
Eventually, we all run into this construction cart-before-the-horse 
phasing situation where you just cannot say no to the client. Once, 
using the defense that those observing fire sprinklers who would 
know what a fire sprinkler looks like in order to perceive a space 
as being protected by fire protection equipment, the exposed 
construction, unconnected upright sprinklers were to be installed 
with florescent yellow tennis balls split open and placed over each 
sprinkler. Perhaps that put a grin on some sprinkler fitter.


Allans Seidel
St. Louis, MO


> On Apr 11, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Foster, Ed  wrote:
>
> The International Fire Code; Section 901.4 Installation may apply.
> And Section 901.4.5 Reads:
> Appearance of equipment. Any device that has the physical 
appearance of life safety or fire protection equipment but does not 
perform that life safety or fire protection function shall be prohibited.


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Re: Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-11 Thread AKS-Gmail-IMAP 
Eventually, we all run into this construction cart-before-the-horse phasing 
situation where you just cannot say no to the client. Once, using the defense 
that those observing fire sprinklers who would know what a fire sprinkler looks 
like in order to perceive a space as being protected by fire protection 
equipment, the exposed construction, unconnected upright sprinklers were to be 
installed with florescent yellow tennis balls split open and placed over each 
sprinkler. Perhaps that put a grin on some sprinkler fitter.

Allans Seidel
St. Louis, MO


> On Apr 11, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Foster, Ed  wrote:
> 
> The International Fire Code; Section 901.4 Installation may apply. 
> And Section 901.4.5 Reads:
> Appearance of equipment. Any device that has the physical appearance of life 
> safety or fire protection equipment but does not perform that life safety or 
> fire protection function shall be prohibited.

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Re: Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-11 Thread Morey, Mike 
If you're under the jurisdiction of ICC codes chapter 9 of the IFC prohibits 
devices that appear to be fire protection devices that don't actually perform 
that function.  

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 7:02 AM, Frans Stoop <f.st...@fo.nl> wrote:
> 
> Gentlemen,
> 
> Is it written anywhere in the NFPA codes or FM datasheets that it is not 
> allowed to install sprinklers without connection to a water supply?
> A company wants sprinklers installed in the course of a building renovation.
> The sprinkler system will not be connected to a water supply yet.
> Sometime in the future, within a few a few years, this might change and a 
> connection to the watersupply might be installed.
> 
> We recommend to replace all visible sprinklers by hexagon plugs for the time 
> being, to avoid a false suggestion of safety.
> Now the question is raised if it is written in the NFPA or FM that 
> unconnected sprinklers are not allowed.
> Unfortunately, I can't find it.
> Another suggestion was to put a sign on the door to each room saying 
> "Sprinklers not functional".
> 
> Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,
> 
> Frans Stoop
> Riskonet B.V.
> Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
> T +31 6542 37 642
> www.riskonet.com
> frans.st...@riskonet.com
> 
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RE: Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-11 Thread Fox, Duane T. (FireMarshal) 
I have had the same request as an AHJ.  We allowed them to pipe the system - no 
heads and no riser.  Plans were submitted to review future head placement and 
to verify hydraulic calculations.  We stated they were responsible for any 
changes to the code when water did become available.  It allowed them to get 
the bulk mains and cross mains in the ceiling with the other mechanical systems 
during construction.  To my knowledge they still have not put in the system 
(heads and riser).


DUANE T. FOX, JR., CFPS, CFI, CFPE
ASST CHIEF, TECHNICAL SERVICES
DE STATE FIRE MARSHAL'S OFFICE
302-856-5298




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Karen Lesko
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 11:18 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Unconnected sprinklers

The Life Safety Code does say "Existing life safety features obvious to the 
public, if not required by the Code, shall be either maintained or removed.

Karen Lesko


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On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 7:02 AM, Frans Stoop < f.st...@fo.nl [f.st...@fo.nl] > 
wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is it written anywhere in the NFPA codes or FM datasheets that it is not 
allowed to install sprinklers without connection to a water supply?
A company wants sprinklers installed in the course of a building renovation.
The sprinkler system will not be connected to a water supply yet.
Sometime in the future, within a few a few years, this might change and a 
connection to the watersupply might be installed.

We recommend to replace all visible sprinklers by hexagon plugs for the time 
being, to avoid a false suggestion of safety.
Now the question is raised if it is written in the NFPA or FM that unconnected 
sprinklers are not allowed.
Unfortunately, I can't find it.
Another suggestion was to put a sign on the door to each room saying 
"Sprinklers not functional".

Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,

Frans Stoop
Riskonet B.V.
Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
T +31 6542 37 642
www.riskonet.com
frans.st...@riskonet.com

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Re: Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-11 Thread Karen Lesko 
The Life Safety Code does say "Existing life safety features obvious to the 
public, if not required by the Code, shall be either maintained or removed.


Karen Lesko


Sent using CloudMagic Email 
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pa=8.3.8=5.1.1=email_footer_2] 
On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 7:02 AM, Frans Stoop < f.st...@fo.nl 
[f.st...@fo.nl] > wrote:

Gentlemen,

Is it written anywhere in the NFPA codes or FM datasheets that it is
not allowed to install sprinklers without connection to a water supply?
A company wants sprinklers installed in the course of a building 
renovation.

The sprinkler system will not be connected to a water supply yet.
Sometime in the future, within a few a few years, this might change
and a connection to the watersupply might be installed.

We recommend to replace all visible sprinklers by hexagon plugs for
the time being, to avoid a false suggestion of safety.
Now the question is raised if it is written in the NFPA or FM that
unconnected sprinklers are not allowed.
Unfortunately, I can't find it.
Another suggestion was to put a sign on the door to each room saying
"Sprinklers not functional".

Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,

Frans Stoop
Riskonet B.V.
Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
T +31 6542 37 642
www.riskonet.com
frans.st...@riskonet.com

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RE: Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-11 Thread Foster, Ed 
The International Fire Code; Section 901.4 Installation may apply. 
And Section 901.4.5 Reads:
Appearance of equipment. Any device that has the physical appearance of life 
safety or fire protection equipment but does not perform that life safety or 
fire protection function shall be prohibited.

Ed Foster 
Fire Marshal

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Frans Stoop
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 3:48 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Unconnected sprinklers

Gentlemen,

Is it written anywhere in the NFPA codes or FM datasheets that it is 
not allowed to install sprinklers without connection to a water supply?
A company wants sprinklers installed in the course of a building renovation.
The sprinkler system will not be connected to a water supply yet.
Sometime in the future, within a few a few years, this might change 
and a connection to the watersupply might be installed.

We recommend to replace all visible sprinklers by hexagon plugs for 
the time being, to avoid a false suggestion of safety.
Now the question is raised if it is written in the NFPA or FM that 
unconnected sprinklers are not allowed.
Unfortunately, I can't find it.
Another suggestion was to put a sign on the door to each room saying 
"Sprinklers not functional".

Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,

Frans Stoop
Riskonet B.V.
Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
T +31 6542 37 642
www.riskonet.com
frans.st...@riskonet.com

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Re: Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-11 Thread Todd Williams 
In 2010, 23.1.1: "Number of Supplies. Every automatic sprinkler system 
shall have at least one automatic water supply"
However, I did not see anything (admittedly quick review) that says that 
sprinklers shall be installed on a piping network (thus creating a 
"system"). It does say install per listing, but I am not sure what the 
listing says.


Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 
860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
Sent using CloudMagic 
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti=6.0.64=8.2]

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Frans Stoop <f.st...@fo.nl> wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is it written anywhere in the NFPA codes or FM datasheets that it is
not allowed to install sprinklers without connection to a water supply?
A company wants sprinklers installed in the course of a building 
renovation.

The sprinkler system will not be connected to a water supply yet.
Sometime in the future, within a few a few years, this might change
and a connection to the watersupply might be installed.

We recommend to replace all visible sprinklers by hexagon plugs for
the time being, to avoid a false suggestion of safety.
Now the question is raised if it is written in the NFPA or FM that
unconnected sprinklers are not allowed.
Unfortunately, I can't find it.
Another suggestion was to put a sign on the door to each room saying
"Sprinklers not functional".

Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,

Frans Stoop
Riskonet B.V.
Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
T +31 6542 37 642
www.riskonet.com
frans.st...@riskonet.com

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Unconnected sprinklers

2016-04-11 Thread Frans Stoop 

Gentlemen,

Is it written anywhere in the NFPA codes or FM datasheets that it is 
not allowed to install sprinklers without connection to a water supply?

A company wants sprinklers installed in the course of a building renovation.
The sprinkler system will not be connected to a water supply yet.
Sometime in the future, within a few a few years, this might change 
and a connection to the watersupply might be installed.


We recommend to replace all visible sprinklers by hexagon plugs for 
the time being, to avoid a false suggestion of safety.
Now the question is raised if it is written in the NFPA or FM that 
unconnected sprinklers are not allowed.

Unfortunately, I can't find it.
Another suggestion was to put a sign on the door to each room saying 
"Sprinklers not functional".


Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,

Frans Stoop
Riskonet B.V.
Singel 540, 1017AZ, Amsterdam
T +31 6542 37 642
www.riskonet.com
frans.st...@riskonet.com

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