Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Filip Navara]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Yves
Goergen wrote:
> On 01.08.2009 16:19 CE(S)T, Noah Hart wrote:
>> This is not a driver, dll, or wrapper.  This is a port of the underlying
>> SQLite software.
>
> Hm, yes, but isn't the other C# SQLite assembly also the entire DB
> engine? I mean, there's no client/server driver; if you can access
> SQLite files, you already have the entire engine in your hands. And the
> other one doesn't need any additional files, it's just one .NET
> assembly. And a huge one. So I cannot imagine that it's just some
> bindings to a native DLL.

It's both bindings and the native code in one DLL. The SQLite code
there is not managed and is compiled only for single platform.

F.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Yves Goergen]

On 01.08.2009 16:19 CE(S)T, Noah Hart wrote:
> This is not a driver, dll, or wrapper.  This is a port of the underlying
> SQLite software.

Hm, yes, but isn't the other C# SQLite assembly also the entire DB
engine? I mean, there's no client/server driver; if you can access
SQLite files, you already have the entire engine in your hands. And the
other one doesn't need any additional files, it's just one .NET
assembly. And a huge one. So I cannot imagine that it's just some
bindings to a native DLL.

-- 
Yves Goergen "LonelyPixel" 
Visit my web laboratory at http://beta.unclassified.de
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

I need to apologize once again. Slow deletes explained as bug in SQLite tests
and flags of Perst compilation. Now they both head to head on basic ops with
2x on Perst selects (can be due to the ADO reader instantiations) 
http://www.nabble.com/file/p24795746/TestIndex.cs TestIndex.cs 

SQLITE TEST
  inserting 10 records: 4.4062500
  performing 20 index searches: 7.250
  iteration through 20 records: 1.1875000
  deleting 10 records: 3.9843750
PERST TEST
  inserting 10 records: 4.1562500
  performing 20 index searches: 2.5156250
  iteration through 20 records: 1.7343750
  deleting 10 records: 4.3437500

SQLITE TEST
  inserting 100 records: 49.7031250
  performing 200 index searches: 76.6718750
  iteration through 200 records: 11.9989795
  deleting 100 records: 46.7937535
PERST TEST
  inserting 100 records: 53.1406250
  performing 200 index searches: 29.9375000
  iteration through 200 records: 19.7187500
  deleting 100 records: 53.7206640

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Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

I need to apologize once again. Slow deletes explained as bug in SQLite tests
and flags of Perst compilation. Now they both head to head on basic ops with
2x on Perst selects (can be due to the ADO reader instantiations) 
http://www.nabble.com/file/p24795731/TestIndex.cs TestIndex.cs 

SQLITE TEST
  inserting 10 records: 4.4062500
  performing 20 index searches: 7.250
  iteration through 20 records: 1.1875000
  deleting 10 records: 3.9843750
PERST TEST
  inserting 10 records: 4.1562500
  performing 20 index searches: 2.5156250
  iteration through 20 records: 1.7343750
  deleting 10 records: 4.3437500

SQLITE TEST
  inserting 100 records: 49.7031250
  performing 200 index searches: 76.6718750
  iteration through 200 records: 11.9989795
  deleting 100 records: 46.7937535
PERST TEST
  inserting 100 records: 53.1406250
  performing 200 index searches: 29.9375000
  iteration through 200 records: 19.7187500
  deleting 100 records: 53.7206640

-
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Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Sorry, test bug in SQLite select test.
http://www.nabble.com/file/p24789308/TestIndex.cs TestIndex.cs 

index searches:
  20: SQLITE 8.1635400 PERST 3.3406065
  200: SQLITE 1:10.6331745 PERST 54.9915975


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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Dan Kennedy-4 wrote:
> Earlier I just quoted the conclusions of the McObject report. Maybe I
> misunderstood. But now that I have read the benchmark code, I'm curious.
> Why is the SQL not being recompiled for each query? Is there some kind  of
> compiled query cache hiding behind the  [db.query()] call in Android?
> 
> Why would it not help to use a read-only transaction? Is SQLite using
> exclusive-locking mode? In the tests I've been working on today I've found
> that read-only transactions speed up SQLite considerably for this kind of
> workload, even when using exclusive-locking mode.

First of all - I was never referring to the published tests, so my
assumptions were that in Android test everything went ok. I've asked author
what's up. And it's clear that in Android SQLite API there are no options
now (or at least not found on test moment) to make SQLite faster. So that
can be resolved, but right now test results on Android true.

I was doing some personal tests long time ago and after this thread decided
to redo same used TestIndex for SQLite and Perst together.

SQLITE TEST
inserting 10 records: 00:00:05.2486875
performing 20 index searches: 00:00:05.6910420
iteration through 20 records: 00:00:00.6942915
deleting 10 records: 00:00:01.645

PERST TEST
inserting 10 records: 00:00:05.6158515
performing 20 index searches: 00:00:03.4675515
iteration through 20 records: 00:00:02.0994750
deleting 10 records: 00:00:05.9859450

SQLITE TEST
inserting 100 records: 00:00:44.6846400
performing 200 index searches: 00:00:59.2130070
iteration through 200 records: 00:00:07.8237180
deleting 100 records: 00:00:16.2304065

PERST TEST
inserting 100 records: 00:01:05.9596455
performing 200 index searches: 00:00:53.0913285
iteration through 200 records: 00:00:29.4795585
deleting 100 records: 00:01:51.0710160

Here is the test file:  http://www.nabble.com/file/p2477/TestIndex.cs
TestIndex.cs 

Everything optimized as much as possible (but staying ACID and doing same
operations) for SQLite. 
Both DB had same page cache size. Perst wasn't tweaked.

Difference is that Perst uses objects and for SQLite that was skipped so
iteration performance differs. Deletion is really slower because Perst uses
separate indices and requires more operations. I don't know whether this can
be tweaked, if test author will have a time - he will change a test. 

Other than deletion performance, everything else looks comparable to me. And
I don't know what it might be with Perst tweak. So again - that is just a
show that managed DB isn't something that must be much slower (but really
Perst/SQLite so different that we mostly measured different architectures).

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Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Dan Kennedy-4 wrote:
> Are you by any chance the author of the report I'm reading?
I'm not an author of test or McObject staff/representative at all. But I can
give a link to this forum to author (still insisting that this is offtopic
here) to answer himself.

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Dan Kennedy]

On Aug 3, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Kosenko Max wrote:

>
>
> Dan Kennedy-4 wrote:
>> McObject CEO Steve Graves points out that because of limits of the  
>> API
>> they were using, SQLite performs each INSERT and DELETE in the test  
>> in a
>> separate transaction. So the reported times for these tests may be  
>> more of
>> a measure of the speed of the media than SQLite itself.
>>
>> The body of the report shows that SQLite scans (iterates through)  
>> rows
>> more quickly than Perst does (about 1.5 times faster). But Perst  
>> can look
>> up individual objects more quickly (about 6 times faster). The  
>> comments
>> in the report indicate that SQLite was not using pre-compiled SQL or
>> read-only transactions for the object-lookup test, so that gap could
>> probably be closed some by better use of the SQLite API. Perhaps more
>> importantly though,  Perst is an Object DB, so it is caching the  
>> actual
>> objects in-memory, whereas SQLite is only caching database pages. I
>> haven't much experience with them, but I think Object DBs are usually
>> faster for this kind of task. YMMV.
>
> While this is offtopic, I just want to comment that there could be a
> problems with any tests around, so you can propose changes to test  
> code if
> you feel it could be done better.

I have no issue with the content of the report or formulation of the  
tests.
I think the folks at McObject have done a good job of testing the two  
systems
and shown real integrity by explaining the results. Most commercial  
operations
are much less forthcoming.

> Read-only transaction and skipping single preparation wouldn't speed- 
> up
> SQLite in that test.

Earlier I just quoted the conclusions of the McObject report. Maybe I
misunderstood. But now that I have read the benchmark code, I'm curious.

Why is the SQL not being recompiled for each query? Is there some kind  
of
compiled query cache hiding behind the  [db.query()] call in Android?

Why would it not help to use a read-only transaction? Is SQLite using
exclusive-locking mode? In the tests I've been working on today I've
found that read-only transactions speed up SQLite considerably for this
kind of workload, even when using exclusive-locking mode.

Are you by any chance the author of the report I'm reading?

Dan.


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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Dan Kennedy-4 wrote:
> McObject CEO Steve Graves points out that because of limits of the API 
> they were using, SQLite performs each INSERT and DELETE in the test in a
> separate transaction. So the reported times for these tests may be more of
> a measure of the speed of the media than SQLite itself.
> 
> The body of the report shows that SQLite scans (iterates through) rows
> more quickly than Perst does (about 1.5 times faster). But Perst can look
> up individual objects more quickly (about 6 times faster). The comments 
> in the report indicate that SQLite was not using pre-compiled SQL or
> read-only transactions for the object-lookup test, so that gap could
> probably be closed some by better use of the SQLite API. Perhaps more
> importantly though,  Perst is an Object DB, so it is caching the actual
> objects in-memory, whereas SQLite is only caching database pages. I
> haven't much experience with them, but I think Object DBs are usually
> faster for this kind of task. YMMV.

While this is offtopic, I just want to comment that there could be a
problems with any tests around, so you can propose changes to test code if
you feel it could be done better. Test isn't using recreation of commands
with each selects. Same it's not using any advantages given by Object DB
nature (which is only complimentary part of Perst). In reality it was even
strange to see such difference on select performance (even for author).
Read-only transaction and skipping single preparation wouldn't speed-up
SQLite in that test. But it's very possible it can be tweaked more or at
least optimized inside.

I'm not insisting that Perst DB is better (it doesn't have such open license
- it's GPL/commercial license and it's not full-size SQL capable at least),
that was just a sample to show that it's a mistake to think that pure
managed DBs always slower.

-
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Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Dan Kennedy]

On Aug 2, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Kosenko Max wrote:

>
> 9/30054 means 99.97% tests are working.
> That's a great achievement anyway.
> Performance problems can be profiled and optimized simpler than with  
> native
> version.
>
> That isn't a nature of managed code to be slow. i.e. Perst DB which is
> managed from scratch is same speed or faster than SQLite (especially  
> on
> embedded platforms). That's not because of C#, but because of  
> different
> architecture, but still it shows that there are plenty of room. So  
> don't
> froze this project please - there is a high demand on it exist.

This was the conclusion of McObject's (the maker of Perst)  
investigation.
See here:

   http://www.mcobject.com/march9/2009

McObject CEO Steve Graves points out that because of limits of the API  
they
were using, SQLite performs each INSERT and DELETE in the test in a  
separate
transaction. So the reported times for these tests may be more of a  
measure
of the speed of the media than SQLite itself.

The body of the report shows that SQLite scans (iterates through) rows  
more
quickly than Perst does (about 1.5 times faster). But Perst can look up
individual objects more quickly (about 6 times faster). The comments  
in the
report indicate that SQLite was not using pre-compiled SQL or read-only
transactions for the object-lookup test, so that gap could probably be  
closed
some by better use of the SQLite API. Perhaps more importantly though,  
Perst
is an Object DB, so it is caching the actual objects in-memory,  
whereas SQLite
is only caching database pages. I haven't much experience with them,  
but I
think Object DBs are usually faster for this kind of task. YMMV.

Dan.

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Neville Franks]

Hi Noah,
A name suggestion:
"SharpLightSQL" - SLSQL or just SLS.

Sunday, August 2, 2009, 10:57:56 PM, you wrote:

NH> Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:

NH> 
NH> Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, but
NH> the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I don't
NH> defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to insist
NH> that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.
NH> 


NH> This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed access
NH> to the source code and will terminate this google code project.  I'll post
NH> an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.

NH> Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
NH> Regards,

---
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Darren Duncan]

P Kishor wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Noah Hart wrote:
>> Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:
>>
>> 
>> Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, but
>> the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I don't
>> defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to insist
>> that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.
>> 
>>
>> This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed access
>> to the source code and will terminate this google code project.  I'll post
>> an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.

That's great.

> A very valid point from DRH re. protecting the sanctity of SQLite, the
> (tm), but the horse may have already left the stable. A quick search
> on macupdate.com reveals the following products with ‘SQLite’ in their
> name (with the indicated capitalization) --
> 
> MesaSQLite
> SQLite Migrator
> SQLite Diff
> SQLiteManager X
> 
> and
> 
> SqliteQuery
> 
> I am sure there are more on Win and *nix platforms.

Even if other projects exist, they can also still be requested to change their 
names too if DRH considers there might be confusion in people as to whether 
they 
are official works of DRH.  Or barring that, the other projects can be asked to 
prominently state anywhere one may encounter them that they are not official 
works of DRH nor (if true) sanctioned by DRH.

> One question might be -- if one chooses a name that does not have
> ‘SQLite’ or any variations thereof in it (from what I can see, Noah
> called the product ‘sqlitecs’), then how does one indicate that the
> product is built on or inspired by SQLite?

Use the *description* text of the product to indicate its relation to SQLite.

> Also, is SQLite
> trademarked, or sqlite or both?

Trademark word-marks are case-insensitive (and usually are formally written 
fully in uppercase), so the answer is "all of the above".

> I thought Tito Ciuro’s now-in-limbo QuickLite was very cleverly named,
> but it is generally gonna be difficult to avoid mention of SQLite in
> the name.

Its very easy.  Just make up some word that *doesn't* resemble "SQLite" (aside, 
if you want, the "SQL" part) and use the description to indicate similarity.

>> Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
>> Regards,
>>
>> Noah Hart

I suggest just putting together some combination of letters that hasn't been 
used yet and reads nicely, and use that.  It doesn't have to be descriptive, 
just unique and brandable.

Make your own brand identity and just document the relationship to SQLite for 
credit purposes.  Searches for SQLite would still turn up yours due to the 
documentation.

That's what I did when I made up the word MULDIS (MULtiverse of DIScourse) for 
my DBMS project, and it's one of the best strategic decisions I've made.

Something else I did, and maybe DRH can do something similar if he hasn't 
already, is write up an easy to find policy page about the best ways to use or 
not use the word SQLITE (any capitalization) so to work with his trademark.

See http://www.muldis.com/trademark_policy.html for my full version for 
example, 
and http://search.cpan.org/dist/Muldis-D/lib/Muldis/D.pm#TRADEMARK_POLICY for 
an 
example abbreviated version accompanying a branded product.

-- Darren Duncan

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

John Stanton-3 wrote:
> 
> Maybe the author could explain the reason for C# translation.  Surely a 
> better approach if the JIT is required would be to use something like 
> gcc and change the code generator to the C# metacode.  Such a product 
> may already exist.
> 
> A translated program is rev locked.

He has already answered that this was done for educational purposes.
I don't believe there is an easy way exists with changing code generator,
but automatic translation of some parts can be very helpful. Meanwhile -
what is already done can be kept on par with native version updates by
checking commits and making similar changes.

-
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[John Stanton]

Maybe the author could explain the reason for C# translation.  Surely a 
better approach if the JIT is required would be to use something like 
gcc and change the code generator to the C# metacode.  Such a product 
may already exist.

A translated program is rev locked.

Kosenko Max wrote:
> Seems like I've missed something...
> 
> Well, if there would be a team dedicated to supporting managed
> implementation of SQLite which can be at any time quickly updated to reflect
> all changes of SQLite native - anyone can always transfer such requests to
> that team. Same happens i.e. with SQLite.NET which might look like managed
> implementation of SQLite, but it's just embedding native part in .NET DLL
> which in turn implements full scale ADO.NET support.
> 
> Isn't SQLite project in general will benefit from having line by line
> (except critical paths requiring another implementation) managed version of
> product? It looks for me like a contribution and not as a headache.
> 
> I can say that my inspection shows that this is pure managed C# with just 10
> P/Invokes those can be easily eliminated. Some inefficiencies exists and
> they also could be removed later. Silverlight, Moonlight, Mono can benefit
> from managed SQLite. But I think that managed version can also give an
> ability to be more flexible in some tryouts of further improvement and
> optimization of SQLite itself.
> 
> Max
> 
> Tim Anderson-2 wrote:
>>> I don't know why he insists on that (he actually can answer for himself
>>> here) while there are a lot of SQLite based projects with that name
>>> usage.
>> Well, he's already answered it: he doesn't want to get support requests
>> for the port.
>>
>> I think I'm right in saying that most of the SQLite-named projects out
>> there are wrappers rather than ports, albeit some of them link the code
>> into their own executables. Are there any ports to other languages called
>> SQLite?
>>
>> It may also be a kind of compliment - that he thinks the port could prove
>> popular. If it is pure C# with no interop, I agree - would be very useful
>> for Silverlight, for example.
>>
>> Tim
>>
> 
> 
> -
> Best Regards.
> Max Kosenko.

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Noah Hart wrote:
> The license is the same as SQLite, I'm waiting on google to change the
> project to PD since that is not one of the canned choices.

Thank you very much.

Can't disagree with Miguel that this is "A godsend gift to developers".
Keep us informed about name change (in case Dr. won't change his mind ;).

-
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

And in the Window's there are ...

For example:

System.Data.SQLite
An open source ADO.NET provider for the SQLite database engine
http://sqlite.phxsoftware.com/

http://code.google.com/p/sqlite-ng/
sqlite-ng A fork of SQLite with more community involvement

SQLite-ng is a fork of SQLite with the goal of providing 100% API and ABI
compatibility.


sqlite3pp
SQLite3++ - C++ wrapper of SQLite3 API
It makes SQLite3 API more friendly to C++ users. It supports almost all of
SQLite3 features using C++ classes such as database, command, query, and
transaction. The query class supports iterator concept for fetching records.


sqlitevb
SQLiteVB: public functions modified to attend VB standards of compatibility


Noah


On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Noah Hart wrote:
>
> Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:
>
> 
> Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, but
> the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I don't
> defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to
> insist
> that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.
> 
>
>
> This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed access
> to the source code and will terminate this google code project.  I'll post
> an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.


A very valid point from DRH re. protecting the sanctity of SQLite, the
(tm), but the horse may have already left the stable. A quick search
on macupdate.com reveals the following products with ‘SQLite’ in their
name (with the indicated capitalization) --

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

The license is the same as SQLite, I'm waiting on google to change the
project to PD since that is not one of the canned choices.

Noah

It's a pity news. I hoped Dr. can think about even somehow supporting your
project.

I don't know why he insists on that (he actually can answer for himself
here) while there are a lot of SQLite based projects with that name usage.
May be that's because of your license?

Max.

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Konrad J Hambrick]

Thanks Jim !

-- kjh


Jim Showalter wrote:
> Yes, C# supports native calls. You just call pinvoke.
> 
> But a pure C# implementation allows it to run in Silverlight and other 
> C# applications where native calls are not allowed.
> 
> http://sqlite.phxsoftware.com/forums/t/1642.aspx
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Konrad J Hambrick" <kon...@payplus.com>
> To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" <sqlite-users@sqlite.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 12:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
> 
> 
>>
>> Noah --
>>
>> This is a wonderful accomplishment !
>>
>> However, I have a question ...
>>
>> Doesn't C# support native function calls ?
>>
>> If so, other than scratching an itch, what does a native port to C# do ?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> -- kjh
>>
>> Noah Hart wrote:
>>> Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, 
>>> but
>>> the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I 
>>> don't
>>> defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to 
>>> insist
>>> that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed 
>>> access
>>> to the source code and will terminate this google code project. I'll 
>>> post
>>> an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.
>>>
>>> Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Noah Hart
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Noah Hart wrote:
>>>> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
>>>> others can look at it.
>>>>
>>>> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
>>>>
>>>> Enjoy,
>>>>
>>>> Noah Hart
>>>>
>>>
>> ___
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>> sqlite-users@sqlite.org
>> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users 
> 
> 
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Jim Showalter]

Yes, C# supports native calls. You just call pinvoke.

But a pure C# implementation allows it to run in Silverlight and other 
C# applications where native calls are not allowed.

http://sqlite.phxsoftware.com/forums/t/1642.aspx

- Original Message - 
From: "Konrad J Hambrick" <kon...@payplus.com>
To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" <sqlite-users@sqlite.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#


>
> Noah --
>
> This is a wonderful accomplishment !
>
> However, I have a question ...
>
> Doesn't C# support native function calls ?
>
> If so, other than scratching an itch, what does a native port to C# 
> do ?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- kjh
>
> Noah Hart wrote:
>> Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:
>>
>> 
>> Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public 
>> domain, but
>> the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I 
>> don't
>> defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need 
>> to insist
>> that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.
>> 
>>
>>
>> This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed 
>> access
>> to the source code and will terminate this google code project. 
>> I'll post
>> an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.
>>
>> Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
>> Regards,
>>
>> Noah Hart
>>
>>
>>
>> Noah Hart wrote:
>>> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point 
>>> where
>>> others can look at it.
>>>
>>> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
>>>
>>> Enjoy,
>>>
>>> Noah Hart
>>>
>>
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Konrad J Hambrick]

Noah --

This is a wonderful accomplishment !

However, I have a question ...

Doesn't C# support native function calls ?

If so, other than scratching an itch, what does a native port to C# do ?

Thanks.

-- kjh

Noah Hart wrote:
> Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:
> 
> 
> Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, but
> the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I don't
> defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to insist
> that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.
> 
> 
> 
> This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed access 
> to the source code and will terminate this google code project.  I'll post
> an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.
> 
> Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
> Regards,
> 
> Noah Hart   
> 
> 
> 
> Noah Hart wrote:
>> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
>> others can look at it.
>>
>> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
>>
>> Enjoy,
>>
>> Noah Hart
>>
> 
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Seems like I've missed something...

Well, if there would be a team dedicated to supporting managed
implementation of SQLite which can be at any time quickly updated to reflect
all changes of SQLite native - anyone can always transfer such requests to
that team. Same happens i.e. with SQLite.NET which might look like managed
implementation of SQLite, but it's just embedding native part in .NET DLL
which in turn implements full scale ADO.NET support.

Isn't SQLite project in general will benefit from having line by line
(except critical paths requiring another implementation) managed version of
product? It looks for me like a contribution and not as a headache.

I can say that my inspection shows that this is pure managed C# with just 10
P/Invokes those can be easily eliminated. Some inefficiencies exists and
they also could be removed later. Silverlight, Moonlight, Mono can benefit
from managed SQLite. But I think that managed version can also give an
ability to be more flexible in some tryouts of further improvement and
optimization of SQLite itself.

Max

Tim Anderson-2 wrote:
> 
>> I don't know why he insists on that (he actually can answer for himself
>> here) while there are a lot of SQLite based projects with that name
>> usage.
> 
> Well, he's already answered it: he doesn't want to get support requests
> for the port.
> 
> I think I'm right in saying that most of the SQLite-named projects out
> there are wrappers rather than ports, albeit some of them link the code
> into their own executables. Are there any ports to other languages called
> SQLite?
> 
> It may also be a kind of compliment - that he thinks the port could prove
> popular. If it is pure C# with no interop, I agree - would be very useful
> for Silverlight, for example.
> 
> Tim
> 


-
Best Regards.
Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Tim Anderson]

> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org [mailto:sqlite-users-
> boun...@sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Kosenko Max
> Sent: 02 August 2009 19:40
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

> I don't know why he insists on that (he actually can answer for himself
> here) while there are a lot of SQLite based projects with that name
> usage.

Well, he's already answered it: he doesn't want to get support requests for the 
port.

I think I'm right in saying that most of the SQLite-named projects out there 
are wrappers rather than ports, albeit some of them link the code into their 
own executables. Are there any ports to other languages called SQLite?

It may also be a kind of compliment - that he thinks the port could prove 
popular. If it is pure C# with no interop, I agree - would be very useful for 
Silverlight, for example.

Tim

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Jim Showalter]

Max's point is that JITs automatically compile down to native code, 
thus a screwdriver is turned into a monkey wrench, therefore you only 
need the screwdriver.

There are other reasons besides native vs. VM why C#/Java would be 
slower than C. For example, C doesn't have the overhead of virtual 
dispatch. And JIT'ing value-type generics in C# can bloat the code.

I *like* managed languages--arguing against having the runtime take 
care of memory allocation reminds me of programmers arguing 40 years 
ago that hand-written assembly was superior to high-level compilers. 
That may have been true initially, and may still be true for 
specialized cases (video drivers?), but in general it's poppycock.

- Original Message - 
From: "Fred Williams" <f.willi...@verizon.net>
To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" <sqlite-users@sqlite.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#


>I have at least a screwdriver and monkey wrench to go with my hammer 
>in my
> computer software tool bag.  Observing the fastener at hand allows 
> me to
> pick the proper tool.  Then if that doesn't work, there's always the 
> hammer.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
> [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 6:32 AM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
>
>
>
> I don't know why you have decided that C# or Java isn't competitive 
> to
> native
> compiled code.
> After JIT there is no VM between Java/.NET and OS.
>
> While C has better compiler than C# it still don't have JIT engine 
> that can
> optimize your code for specific hardware you're running on right 
> now. Or it
> can recompile code based on statistics. Options unavailable to 
> native code.
> And after all having managed implementation gives better control on 
> code,
> simpler code and so on. So in reality there should be strong reason 
> for NOT
> using managed implementations for whatever. But it's only rising 
> now...
>
>
> Jim Showalter-4 wrote:
>>
>> Could we not disparage different OSs and languages?
>>
>> A fair comparison of performance isn't between a C and C#
>> implementation of SQLite, but between a C# and Java implementation 
>> of
>> SQLite. Both C# and Java are managed languages that run atop a VM 
>> that
>> runs atop an OS. C is down on the metal. I would expect the C 
>> version
>> to be faster.
>>
>> I don't know the background of why this programmer did a port 
>> directly
>> to C# instead of binding C# to the existing C library, but I assume 
>> he
>> had his reasons.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Fred Williams" <f.willi...@verizon.net>
>> To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" 
>> <sqlite-users@sqlite.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hummm... Guess there is a reason there are no implementations of 
>>> C#
>>> external
>>> to the Mickeysoft world :-)
>>>
>>> Guess if I had a lot of time to kill I could port it to Delphi...
>>>
>>> BTW, what's the memory footprint?
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
>>> [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:22 AM
>>> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
>>> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they 
>>> are
>>> 3-5times
>>> slower than original...
>>>
>>> -
>>> Best Regards.
>>> Max Kosenko.
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/ANN%3A--SQLite-3.6.16.C--tp24764742p24768252.html
>>> Sent from the SQLite mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> sqlite-users@sqlite.org
>>> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> sqlite-users@sqlite.org
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>>
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>> sqlite-

Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

It's a pity news. I hoped Dr. can think about even somehow supporting your
project.

I don't know why he insists on that (he actually can answer for himself
here) while there are a lot of SQLite based projects with that name usage.
May be that's because of your license?

Max.

Noah Hart wrote:
> 
> Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:
> 
> 
> Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, but
> the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I don't
> defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to
> insist that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.
> 
> 
> 
> This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed access 
> to the source code and will terminate this google code project.  I'll post
> an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.
> 
> Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
> 


-
Best Regards.
Max Kosenko.
-- 
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Fred Williams]

Thank you for your understanding.  And best of luck with XXLite?

I know you have a large captive audience out there.  It is the only reason I
swallow my pride and admit knowledge of the most pervasive OS currently on
the planet.  Not the "best" technically, but best "marketed."

Fred

-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Noah Hart
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:58 AM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#



Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:


Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, but
the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I don't
defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to insist
that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.



This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed access
to the source code and will terminate this google code project.  I'll post
an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.

Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
Regards,

Noah Hart



Noah Hart wrote:
>
> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
> others can look at it.
>
> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Noah Hart
>

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Fred Williams]

I have at least a screwdriver and monkey wrench to go with my hammer in my
computer software tool bag.  Observing the fastener at hand allows me to
pick the proper tool.  Then if that doesn't work, there's always the hammer.

-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 6:32 AM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#



I don't know why you have decided that C# or Java isn't competitive to
native
compiled code.
After JIT there is no VM between Java/.NET and OS.

While C has better compiler than C# it still don't have JIT engine that can
optimize your code for specific hardware you're running on right now. Or it
can recompile code based on statistics. Options unavailable to native code.
And after all having managed implementation gives better control on code,
simpler code and so on. So in reality there should be strong reason for NOT
using managed implementations for whatever. But it's only rising now...


Jim Showalter-4 wrote:
>
> Could we not disparage different OSs and languages?
>
> A fair comparison of performance isn't between a C and C#
> implementation of SQLite, but between a C# and Java implementation of
> SQLite. Both C# and Java are managed languages that run atop a VM that
> runs atop an OS. C is down on the metal. I would expect the C version
> to be faster.
>
> I don't know the background of why this programmer did a port directly
> to C# instead of binding C# to the existing C library, but I assume he
> had his reasons.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Fred Williams" <f.willi...@verizon.net>
> To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" <sqlite-users@sqlite.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
>
>
>>
>> Hummm... Guess there is a reason there are no implementations of C#
>> external
>> to the Mickeysoft world :-)
>>
>> Guess if I had a lot of time to kill I could port it to Delphi...
>>
>> BTW, what's the memory footprint?
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
>> [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
>> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:22 AM
>> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
>> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
>>
>>
>>
>> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
>> 3-5times
>> slower than original...
>>
>> -
>> Best Regards.
>> Max Kosenko.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/ANN%3A--SQLite-3.6.16.C--tp24764742p24768252.html
>> Sent from the SQLite mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> ___
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>> sqlite-users@sqlite.org
>> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>>
>> ___
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>> sqlite-users@sqlite.org
>> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
> ___
> sqlite-users mailing list
> sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
>


-
Best Regards.
Max Kosenko.
--
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[P Kishor]

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Noah Hart wrote:
>
> Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:
>
> 
> Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, but
> the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I don't
> defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to insist
> that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.
> 
>
>
> This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed access
> to the source code and will terminate this google code project.  I'll post
> an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.


A very valid point from DRH re. protecting the sanctity of SQLite, the
(tm), but the horse may have already left the stable. A quick search
on macupdate.com reveals the following products with ‘SQLite’ in their
name (with the indicated capitalization) --

MesaSQLite
SQLite Migrator
SQLite Diff
SQLiteManager X

and

SqliteQuery

I am sure there are more on Win and *nix platforms.

One question might be -- if one chooses a name that does not have
‘SQLite’ or any variations thereof in it (from what I can see, Noah
called the product ‘sqlitecs’), then how does one indicate that the
product is built on or inspired by SQLite? Also, is SQLite
trademarked, or sqlite or both?

I thought Tito Ciuro’s now-in-limbo QuickLite was very cleverly named,
but it is generally gonna be difficult to avoid mention of SQLite in
the name.


>
> Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
> Regards,
>
> Noah Hart
>
>
>
> Noah Hart wrote:
>>
>> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
>> others can look at it.
>>
>> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
>>
>> Enjoy,
>>
>> Noah Hart
>>
>




-- 
Puneet Kishor http://www.punkish.org
Carbon Model http://carbonmodel.org
Charter Member, Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org
Science Commons Fellow, http://sciencecommons.org/about/whoweare/kishor
Nelson Institute, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu
---
Assertions are politics; backing up assertions with evidence is science
===
Sent from Madison, WI, United States
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Tim Anderson]

What about SqlSharp?

Tim

> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org [mailto:sqlite-users-
> boun...@sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Noah Hart
> Sent: 02 August 2009 13:58
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
> 
> Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

Richard sent me a gentle reminder that read in part:


Please also note that the SQLite source code is in the public domain, but
the "SQLite" name is not.  SQLite is a registered trade mark.  If I don't
defend the trademark, then I could lose it.  So, I really do need to insist
that you not use the name "SQLite" for your product.



This is an excellent reminder, and until this is done, I've removed access 
to the source code and will terminate this google code project.  I'll post
an announcement in the future when the new project is ready.

Also, if anyone has an ideal about what to call it ...
Regards,

Noah Hart   



Noah Hart wrote:
> 
> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
> others can look at it.
> 
> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Noah Hart
> 

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

9/30054 means 99.97% tests are working.
That's a great achievement anyway.
Performance problems can be profiled and optimized simpler than with native
version.

That isn't a nature of managed code to be slow. i.e. Perst DB which is
managed from scratch is same speed or faster than SQLite (especially on
embedded platforms). That's not because of C#, but because of different
architecture, but still it shows that there are plenty of room. So don't
froze this project please - there is a high demand on it exist.

Max


Noah Hart wrote:
> 
> Max, I missed posting the remaining errors
> 
> Current results ... 
> 9 errors out of 30054 tests
> 
> Still skipping about 9 additional tests
> 
> Noah
> 
> Kosenko Max wrote:
>> 
>> Wow, that's impressive.
>> 
>> And very interesting that you've gained 3x-5x performance gain.
>> Don't make this project educational only. I'm sure you'll find additional
>> contributors. Just recently Miguel de Icaza was asking for line by line
>> port of SQLite to C#.
>> 
>> Great achievement that all tests are passing now.
>> 
>> Max.
>> 
>> 
>> Noah Hart wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
>>> others can look at it.
>>> 
>>> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
>>> 
>>> Enjoy,
>>> 
>>> Noah Hart
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 


-
Best Regards.
Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

I don't know why you have decided that C# or Java isn't competitive to native
compiled code.
After JIT there is no VM between Java/.NET and OS.

While C has better compiler than C# it still don't have JIT engine that can
optimize your code for specific hardware you're running on right now. Or it
can recompile code based on statistics. Options unavailable to native code.
And after all having managed implementation gives better control on code,
simpler code and so on. So in reality there should be strong reason for NOT
using managed implementations for whatever. But it's only rising now...


Jim Showalter-4 wrote:
> 
> Could we not disparage different OSs and languages?
> 
> A fair comparison of performance isn't between a C and C# 
> implementation of SQLite, but between a C# and Java implementation of 
> SQLite. Both C# and Java are managed languages that run atop a VM that 
> runs atop an OS. C is down on the metal. I would expect the C version 
> to be faster.
> 
> I don't know the background of why this programmer did a port directly 
> to C# instead of binding C# to the existing C library, but I assume he 
> had his reasons.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Fred Williams" <f.willi...@verizon.net>
> To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" <sqlite-users@sqlite.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
> 
> 
>>
>> Hummm... Guess there is a reason there are no implementations of C# 
>> external
>> to the Mickeysoft world :-)
>>
>> Guess if I had a lot of time to kill I could port it to Delphi...
>>
>> BTW, what's the memory footprint?
>>
>> Fred
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
>> [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
>> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:22 AM
>> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
>> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
>>
>>
>>
>> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
>> 3-5times
>> slower than original...
>>
>> -
>> Best Regards.
>> Max Kosenko.
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/ANN%3A--SQLite-3.6.16.C--tp24764742p24768252.html
>> Sent from the SQLite mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> ___
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>>
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> 


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Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Florian Weimer]

* Noah Hart:

> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where others
> can look at it.

Congratulations!

(Is there something similar for Java, not using JNI nor NestedVM? 8-)
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Simon Slavin]

On 1 Aug 2009, at 11:07pm, Fred Williams wrote:

> SQLite was and has always been designed to be extremely cross platform
> portable, bare bones in both footprint and implementation.  It is, and
> should remain so.  If someone wants to take the open source and  
> implement it
> in something like C# or Java, I think Dr. Hipp should contact them and
> politely ask them to change the name, because the end result will be  
> neither
> that portable (C#) or efficient (Java.) MHO.

I don't have a problem with a port to other languages.  In fact  
porting things to other platforms and other languages is a great way  
to discover bugs in the original: first you have to actually read the  
code, and second you find things that work only by coincidence.  But  
porting is like making babies: the enthusiasm that goes into the  
original work is not always reflected in maintenance.  And I hope that  
Dr. Hipp is going to add some features or fix some bugs in the C  
version of SQLite.  At that point the port is either going to be  
incompatible, or require maintenance from someone who understands it.

So I would want to be sure that's going to happen before basing any  
big project on the port.

Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Fred Williams]

No I'm not proud of what a lot of OS providers produce.  Microsoft in
particular.  Sun's Java is becoming such a resource pig, I won't mess with
it either.

SQLite was and has always been designed to be extremely cross platform
portable, bare bones in both footprint and implementation.  It is, and
should remain so.  If someone wants to take the open source and implement it
in something like C# or Java, I think Dr. Hipp should contact them and
politely ask them to change the name, because the end result will be neither
that portable (C#) or efficient (Java.) MHO.

Lucky for most, SQLite has not suffered the extreme feature creep that is
inherent in most software projects.  And it appears a constant battle to
keep it true to its roots.  If I want a multi-user, full featured database I
have a multitude of very successful products to pick from.  I won't keep
asking the SQLite developers for just one more feature.  I tend to use a
product for which it was designed.  I'm not the kind of guy that just
because I own a hammer everything in the world looks like a nail.  I guess
that is why I can write in more than 10 programming languages.

A place for everything, and every thing in its place, so to speak.

Fred

-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Jim Showalter
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 1:06 PM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#


Could we not disparage different OSs and languages?

A fair comparison of performance isn't between a C and C#
implementation of SQLite, but between a C# and Java implementation of
SQLite. Both C# and Java are managed languages that run atop a VM that
runs atop an OS. C is down on the metal. I would expect the C version
to be faster.

I don't know the background of why this programmer did a port directly
to C# instead of binding C# to the existing C library, but I assume he
had his reasons.

- Original Message -
From: "Fred Williams" <f.willi...@verizon.net>
To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" <sqlite-users@sqlite.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#


>
> Hummm... Guess there is a reason there are no implementations of C#
> external
> to the Mickeysoft world :-)
>
> Guess if I had a lot of time to kill I could port it to Delphi...
>
> BTW, what's the memory footprint?
>
> Fred
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
> [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:22 AM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
>
>
>
> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
> 3-5times
> slower than original...
>
> -
> Best Regards.
> Max Kosenko.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/ANN%3A--SQLite-3.6.16.C--tp24764742p24768252.html
> Sent from the SQLite mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[P Kishor]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Jim Showalter wrote:
> I don't know the background of why this programmer did a port directly
> to C# instead of binding C# to the existing C library, but I assume he
> had his reasons.

He says very clearly on the code website, he did so to learn C#. As I
wrote in my comment there, I admire his perseverance, and that he
managed to complete the project single-handedly.

-- 
Puneet Kishor
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Jim Showalter]

Could we not disparage different OSs and languages?

A fair comparison of performance isn't between a C and C# 
implementation of SQLite, but between a C# and Java implementation of 
SQLite. Both C# and Java are managed languages that run atop a VM that 
runs atop an OS. C is down on the metal. I would expect the C version 
to be faster.

I don't know the background of why this programmer did a port directly 
to C# instead of binding C# to the existing C library, but I assume he 
had his reasons.

- Original Message - 
From: "Fred Williams" <f.willi...@verizon.net>
To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" <sqlite-users@sqlite.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#


>
> Hummm... Guess there is a reason there are no implementations of C# 
> external
> to the Mickeysoft world :-)
>
> Guess if I had a lot of time to kill I could port it to Delphi...
>
> BTW, what's the memory footprint?
>
> Fred
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
> [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:22 AM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
>
>
>
> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
> 3-5times
> slower than original...
>
> -
> Best Regards.
> Max Kosenko.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/ANN%3A--SQLite-3.6.16.C--tp24764742p24768252.html
> Sent from the SQLite mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

This is not a driver, dll, or wrapper.  This is a port of the underlying
SQLite software.

Noah

Yves Goergen wrote:
> 
> On 01.08.2009 02:14 CE(S)T, Noah Hart wrote:
>> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
>> others
>> can look at it.
>> 
>> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
> 
> Excuse me, but what's the difference of this to SQLite ADO.NET at
> http://sqlite.phxsoftware.com/ ?
> 
> -- 
> Yves Goergen "LonelyPixel" 
> Visit my web laboratory at http://beta.unclassified.de
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> 
> 

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

Max, I missed posting the remaining errors

Current results ... 
9 errors out of 30054 tests

Still skipping about 9 additional tests

Noah

Kosenko Max wrote:
> 
> Wow, that's impressive.
> 
> And very interesting that you've gained 3x-5x performance gain.
> Don't make this project educational only. I'm sure you'll find additional
> contributors. Just recently Miguel de Icaza was asking for line by line
> port of SQLite to C#.
> 
> Great achievement that all tests are passing now.
> 
> Max.
> 
> 
> Noah Hart wrote:
>> 
>> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
>> others can look at it.
>> 
>> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
>> 
>> Enjoy,
>> 
>> Noah Hart
>> 
> 

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

The compiled version of the SQLite3.exe is 528KB vs 506KB for the official
release

I haven't checked the footprint while it is running.  That would be depend
on what it is doing ...

Noah

Fred Williams wrote:
> 
> 
> Hummm... Guess there is a reason there are no implementations of C#
> external
> to the Mickeysoft world :-)
> 
> Guess if I had a lot of time to kill I could port it to Delphi...
> 
> BTW, what's the memory footprint?
> 
> Fred
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
> [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:22 AM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
> 3-5times
> slower than original...
> 
> -
> Best Regards.
> Max Kosenko.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/ANN%3A--SQLite-3.6.16.C--tp24764742p24768252.html
> Sent from the SQLite mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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> 
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> 

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

Yes, but still decent speed

All Results are in Rows per Second

TestSQLite3C#   SQLite3
Inserts 300K1300K
Selects 1500K   8450K
Updates 60K 300K
Deletes 250K700K 

Noah

Kosenko Max wrote:
> 
> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
> 3-5times slower than original... 
> 

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

Cory, There was no attempt at optimization in this initial port.  SQLite does
a lot of char/byte/string manipulation as well as and passing parameters by
address in the middle of an array.  But I ended up having to do a lot of
byte buffer copying.  MY guess is that is where most of the time is spent.

Regards,

Noah

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Kosenko Max wrote:
>
> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
> 3-5times
> slower than original...
>

This could be for a number of reasons.  For one, it uses p/invoke for
a number of things, which can be pretty slow and is not portable.
Another, it is basically a direct port of the C code -- it is using
goto all over the place, which probably hampers optimization as
opposed to exceptions.

-- 
Cory Nelson
http://int64.org

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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Yves Goergen]

On 01.08.2009 02:14 CE(S)T, Noah Hart wrote:
> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where others
> can look at it.
> 
> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs

Excuse me, but what's the difference of this to SQLite ADO.NET at
http://sqlite.phxsoftware.com/ ?

-- 
Yves Goergen "LonelyPixel" 
Visit my web laboratory at http://beta.unclassified.de
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Fred Williams wrote:
> Hummm... Guess there is a reason there are no implementations of C#
> external to the Mickeysoft world :-)

One of the reason is true multiplatform support with Mono for managed world. 
Another one is Silverlight DB.




-
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Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Only 10 DllImport (files and performance), most can be moved to managed
version.
goto isn't something slow with C# - so it can't be a bottleneck.
But it would be interesting to study this with profiler and see what is the
real reason.
I believe it shouldn't be that different in performance.


Cory Nelson wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Kosenko Max wrote:
>>
>> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
>> 3-5times
>> slower than original...
>>
> 
> This could be for a number of reasons.  For one, it uses p/invoke for
> a number of things, which can be pretty slow and is not portable.
> Another, it is basically a direct port of the C code -- it is using
> goto all over the place, which probably hampers optimization as
> opposed to exceptions.
> 
> -- 
> Cory Nelson
> http://int64.org
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> 


-
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Fred Williams]

Hummm... Guess there is a reason there are no implementations of C# external
to the Mickeysoft world :-)

Guess if I had a lot of time to kill I could port it to Delphi...

BTW, what's the memory footprint?

Fred

-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org]on Behalf Of Kosenko Max
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 6:22 AM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#



Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are
3-5times
slower than original...

-
Best Regards.
Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Cory Nelson]

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Kosenko Max wrote:
>
> Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are 3-5times
> slower than original...
>

This could be for a number of reasons.  For one, it uses p/invoke for
a number of things, which can be pretty slow and is not portable.
Another, it is basically a direct port of the C code -- it is using
goto all over the place, which probably hampers optimization as
opposed to exceptions.

-- 
Cory Nelson
http://int64.org
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Seems like I've misunderstood your performance results. And they are 3-5times
slower than original... 

-
Best Regards.
Max Kosenko.
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Re: [sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Kosenko Max]

Wow, that's impressive.

And very interesting that you've gained 3x-5x performance gain.
Don't make this project educational only. I'm sure you'll find additional
contributors. Just recently Miguel de Icaza was asking for line by line port
of SQLite to C#.

Great achievement that all tests are passing now.

Max.


Noah Hart wrote:
> 
> I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where
> others can look at it.
> 
> The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Noah Hart
> 

-
Best Regards.
Max Kosenko.
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[sqlite] ANN: SQLite 3.6.16.C#

[Noah Hart]

I am pleased to announce that the C# port is done to the point where others
can look at it.

The project is located at http://code.google.com/p/sqlitecs

Enjoy,

Noah Hart
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