Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[John Stanton]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Doug Currie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Please set the list so default reply is to the list.
>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
>>
> 
> One finds various screeds such as the one Doug references
> above.  And on the configuration screen for GNU mailman,
> it "strongly recommends" that replys be to the author and
> not to the list.
> 
> And yet nearly everyone I know loaths that behavior.  The
> overwhelming majority of users prefer mailing list replies
> to go back to the mailing list *only*.
> 
> I think we have things configured now so that replies go
> back to the list instead of the to original author.  There
> are likely other settings that will need to be adjusted as
> we move forward.  Please let me know if you see anything
> unusual.
> 
> In a semi-related rant: Setting up a new mailing list is
> *way* harder than it needs to be.  Way, Way harder.  In order
> to go from ezmlm to GNU mailman, we had to prototype the
> setup on a separate machine, then spend a day debugging
> the setup after transferring it to the production machine.
> A day.  For a mailing list.  And this is with mailing list
> software that is suppose to be *easy* to configure.  I
> tremble to thing what the difficult-to-configure software
> must be like.
> 
> To tie this back to the original question, when people who
> write mail handling and mailing list software get their
> programs to the point where I can set up a new mail system
> and a new mailing list manager on a system in 15 minutes or
> less with reasonable assurance that I have not opened major
> security holes in the system, then, perhaps, I will be in a
> better mood to listen to their polemics on Reply-To field 
> munging.
> 
> --
> D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
Some very apt comments.  Having been similarly irritated by the mindless 
complexity of setting up mailman to manage a simple list I empathize. 
The ease and simplicity of installing Sqlite is in stark comparison and 
no accident but the reward of a lot of discipline in paring away 
complexity, filtering out ornamentation and responding thoughtfully to 
user's experiences and suggestions.
  JS
There are no victims, only volunteers.
> 
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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[drh]

Nicolas Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 01:30:01AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > And yet nearly everyone I know loaths that behavior.  The
> > overwhelming majority of users prefer mailing list replies
> > to go back to the mailing list *only*.
> 
> Users need to learn to do "list reply" or "reply all" :)
> 
> Getting dups (reply all) is no big deal (and even desirable!).
> 
> There's a mailing list I'm on where someone tried to respond privately
> to another poster, but didn't realize that reply-to was set, and the
> reply went to the list; that reply was a bit embarrassing.  I don't
> recommend that.
> 

The much, much more common mistake is that users press reply
instead of reply-all and they message does not go back to the
list.  This happens with alarming regularity.  And when the
reply does not go back to the list, their contribution to the
conversation is lost from the archive.  This is bad.

Furthermore, reply-all causes the original sender to get two
copies of the message instead of one.  My mailbox is full enough
already without getting two of everything.

In the very rare case where you want to respond to the individual
rather than to the list, it is easy enough to change the To: field
of your email.  But responding to an individual should be the
exception, rather than the rule.  Remember, we want all responses
to be on-list because usually when one person asks a question, there
are a dozen others that have the same question but have not yet
asked it.  If people reply off-list, then the same question gets
asked and answered over, and over again.  But if the answer is
on-list, then multiple people can benefit from the answer.

The common case is responding to the list.  Without Reply-To munging,
if you press reply-all, then you have to go up and manually remove
the original senders name from the To: field.  This is extra work
in the common case.  We perfer to optimize the common case, rather
than the exceptional case.

A better way of avoiding embarrassment from public revelation of
secretive correspondence is to deal openly and honestly with 
everybody in the first place.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[Nicolas Williams]

On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 01:30:01AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And yet nearly everyone I know loaths that behavior.  The
> overwhelming majority of users prefer mailing list replies
> to go back to the mailing list *only*.

Users need to learn to do "list reply" or "reply all" :)

Getting dups (reply all) is no big deal (and even desirable!).

There's a mailing list I'm on where someone tried to respond privately
to another poster, but didn't realize that reply-to was set, and the
reply went to the list; that reply was a bit embarrassing.  I don't
recommend that.

Nico
-- 
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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[Aristotle Pagaltzis]

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-02-05 02:35]:
> The overwhelming majority of users prefer mailing list replies
> to go back to the mailing list *only*.

Reply-To munging is still harmful, because if the original sender
had set this header, that information is lost; if someone really
wants to send to mail to the sender instead of the list, after
going through the contortions necessary, they will end up sending
it to the sender’s From address, ie. the wrong one.

So it goes.

Rather, mailing list software should be setting Mail-Followup-To.
Unfortunately there are a lot of broken clients out there which
don’t have any clue about that one whatsoever. I believe the fine
Microsoft products are among them, though I could be mistaken. So
this Reply-To meddling persists.

So it goes.

Anyway, there are mail clients which largely work sanely despite
adversity – read: mutt. Once told that a particular address is a
mailing list, mutt will plainly ignore a munged Reply-To when
doing a regular reply, offering instead a separate list-reply
function which will send the reply to the list *only*, regardless
of how the mailing list software is configured, and will also set
Mail-Followup-To in the right circumstances.

What mutt can’t do, of course, is recover the original value of
a Reply-To header mangled by officious mailing list software.

So it goes.

(It’s kind of ludicrous, if you think about it, that most mail
clients have not even the most basic dedicated support for
mailing lists, nearly half a century after the birth of SMTP.)

Regards,
-- 
Aristotle Pagaltzis // 
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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[Glenn McAllister]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In a semi-related rant: Setting up a new mailing list is
> *way* harder than it needs to be.  Way, Way harder.  In order
> to go from ezmlm to GNU mailman, we had to prototype the
> setup on a separate machine, then spend a day debugging
> the setup after transferring it to the production machine.
> A day.  For a mailing list.  And this is with mailing list
> software that is suppose to be *easy* to configure.  I
> tremble to thing what the difficult-to-configure software
> must be like.

Out of curiosity, what prompted the move from ezmlm to mailman?  I've 
used ezmlm for years and haven't had any problems with it.  That being 
said, I've only actually setup an ezmlm list a couple of times, and that 
was several years ago, so I'm probably forgetting the headaches.

-- 
Glenn McAllister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  +1 416 348 1594
SOMA Networks, Inc.  http://www.somanetworks.com/  +1 416 977 1414
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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[Rich Shepard]

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> One finds various screeds such as the one Doug references above. And on
> the configuration screen for GNU mailman, it "strongly recommends" that
> replys be to the author and not to the list.
>
> And yet nearly everyone I know loaths that behavior. The overwhelming
> majority of users prefer mailing list replies to go back to the mailing
> list *only*.

   I'm in that group. If it's a mail list, then threads should stay on the
list. Most of the lists to which I subscribe have both the list and the
individual sender as return addresses; sometimes the list is the To: and the
individual is the Cc:, other times it's the opposite. Regardless, it's a
minor hassle to clean out the individual's address when I want to reply to
the list.

   OTOH, pine is very helpful when I prepare to compose a reply. It asks if I
want to use the From: or Reply-to: address; if the former, it then asks if I
want to respond to everyone. I like this behavior; when I want to send a
private message I can, otherwise the default behavior is to send the reply
to the mail list.

   Thank you Richard and crew for spending the time to successfully migrate
from ezmlm to mailman. I use majordomo, but my lists are few, small, and
very low volume.

Rich

-- 
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863
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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[drh]

Doug Currie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Please set the list so default reply is to the list.
> 
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> 

One finds various screeds such as the one Doug references
above.  And on the configuration screen for GNU mailman,
it "strongly recommends" that replys be to the author and
not to the list.

And yet nearly everyone I know loaths that behavior.  The
overwhelming majority of users prefer mailing list replies
to go back to the mailing list *only*.

I think we have things configured now so that replies go
back to the list instead of the to original author.  There
are likely other settings that will need to be adjusted as
we move forward.  Please let me know if you see anything
unusual.

In a semi-related rant: Setting up a new mailing list is
*way* harder than it needs to be.  Way, Way harder.  In order
to go from ezmlm to GNU mailman, we had to prototype the
setup on a separate machine, then spend a day debugging
the setup after transferring it to the production machine.
A day.  For a mailing list.  And this is with mailing list
software that is suppose to be *easy* to configure.  I
tremble to thing what the difficult-to-configure software
must be like.

To tie this back to the original question, when people who
write mail handling and mailing list software get their
programs to the point where I can set up a new mail system
and a new mailing list manager on a system in 15 minutes or
less with reasonable assurance that I have not opened major
security holes in the system, then, perhaps, I will be in a
better mood to listen to their polemics on Reply-To field 
munging.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[Doug Currie]

On Monday, February 04, 2008 P Kishor wrote: 

> On 2/4/08, Clark Christensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> So, I sent a reply this morning to a list message, and it seems to have gone 
>> to the OP's email address rather than to the list (sorry bash).
>>
>> I don't remember having that issue with the old software (ezmlm).  To fix, 
>> is it a client configuration, or is there a reply-to header that should be 
>> set in Mailman?  I would really like to NOT have to remember to change the 
>> recipient address when I reply.

> +1

> This mailing-list business is becoming a royal pain in the derriere.
> Every other mailing list behaves differently... some default to the
> list, others to the OP. Why can't we all get along.

> Please set the list so default reply is to the list.

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

e

-- 
Doug Currie
Londonderry, NH, USA

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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[P Kishor]

On 2/4/08, Clark Christensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, I sent a reply this morning to a list message, and it seems to have gone 
> to the OP's email address rather than to the list (sorry bash).
>
> I don't remember having that issue with the old software (ezmlm).  To fix, is 
> it a client configuration, or is there a reply-to header that should be set 
> in Mailman?  I would really like to NOT have to remember to change the 
> recipient address when I reply.

+1

This mailing-list business is becoming a royal pain in the derriere.
Every other mailing list behaves differently... some default to the
list, others to the OP. Why can't we all get along.

Please set the list so default reply is to the list.




>
> Thanks!
>
>  -Clark
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Mike Owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 10:55:04 AM
> Subject: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes
>
> The SQLite mailing list has been moved over to Postfix and GNU Mailman. Please
> do not use the ezmlm mail accounts to modify your subscription status from 
> this
> point on.
>
> You can now configure your list status and options via the Mailman
> interface at:
>
>   http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/options/sqlite-users
>
> You will need your password to do so. To get it, fill in your email address 
> and
> hit the "Remind" button under the the "Password Reminder" section. You will
> receive an email with your auto-generated password. You can change this 
> password
> after logging into your admin page.
>
> While it shouldn't be a problem for you, we are using the following 
> blacklists:
>
>list.dsbl.org
>zen.spamhaus.org
>bl.spamcop.net
>dnsbl.njabl.org
>
> If you have any problems with passwords, settings, or sending/receiving mail, 
> or
> anything else related to the mailing list, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] I
> apologize in advance for any problems or inconvenience, and will work
> to fix them
> as quickly as possible.
>
> -- Mike
> ___
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Re: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[Clark Christensen]

So, I sent a reply this morning to a list message, and it seems to have gone to 
the OP's email address rather than to the list (sorry bash).

I don't remember having that issue with the old software (ezmlm).  To fix, is 
it a client configuration, or is there a reply-to header that should be set in 
Mailman?  I would really like to NOT have to remember to change the recipient 
address when I reply.

Thanks!

 -Clark

- Original Message 
From: Mike Owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 10:55:04 AM
Subject: [sqlite] Mailing List Changes

The SQLite mailing list has been moved over to Postfix and GNU Mailman. Please
do not use the ezmlm mail accounts to modify your subscription status from this
point on.

You can now configure your list status and options via the Mailman
interface at:

  http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/options/sqlite-users

You will need your password to do so. To get it, fill in your email address and
hit the "Remind" button under the the "Password Reminder" section. You will
receive an email with your auto-generated password. You can change this password
after logging into your admin page.

While it shouldn't be a problem for you, we are using the following blacklists:

   list.dsbl.org
   zen.spamhaus.org
   bl.spamcop.net
   dnsbl.njabl.org

If you have any problems with passwords, settings, or sending/receiving mail, or
anything else related to the mailing list, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] I
apologize in advance for any problems or inconvenience, and will work
to fix them
as quickly as possible.

-- Mike
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[sqlite] Mailing List Changes

[Mike Owens]

The SQLite mailing list has been moved over to Postfix and GNU Mailman. Please
do not use the ezmlm mail accounts to modify your subscription status from this
point on.

You can now configure your list status and options via the Mailman
interface at:

  http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/options/sqlite-users

You will need your password to do so. To get it, fill in your email address and
hit the "Remind" button under the the "Password Reminder" section. You will
receive an email with your auto-generated password. You can change this password
after logging into your admin page.

While it shouldn't be a problem for you, we are using the following blacklists:

   list.dsbl.org
   zen.spamhaus.org
   bl.spamcop.net
   dnsbl.njabl.org

If you have any problems with passwords, settings, or sending/receiving mail, or
anything else related to the mailing list, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] I
apologize in advance for any problems or inconvenience, and will work
to fix them
as quickly as possible.

-- Mike
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