Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
It all depends on how dissimilar the devices are. The more devices you want to sync, the more similar they need to be. An underpowered battery might cause clock drift and thats bad for sync, for example. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
Hey guys. as you siad you tried 9 pi player over wifi. and you said adding more wifi device caused delay. you mean any wifi device like mobile phone or another pi player? About 3 months ago I wanted to use picoreplayer to implement IELTS listening exam. try about 6 or 7 picoreplayer on raspberry zero w. worked fine. but never realized how many devices can be supported in synchronized mode. I connected each RPi zero w to power unit and battery and using gpio and led to determine connected to lms server. nimaazx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=68798 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
ClaudeBoulard wrote: > Hi, > The case 'all synced' is not the only one. We are 4 people and probably > our chidren will often choose their own music ... Understood. It was just a thought. I suspect you will end up swapping the Pi3 LMS server out for a proper PC (Linux). The Pis weakspot remains the LAN sharing the USB port. I was running a Pi as a server for a while but it didnt like me syncing a couple of other Pis (all wired) and the two synced Pis would drift noticeably. They were in the same room - front and rear and all wired to the same decent rack mount switch. VB2.4[/B] STORAGE *QNAP TS419P (NFS) [B]Living Room* - Joggler & SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 -> Celestion F20s *Office* - Pi3+Sreen -> Sony TAFE320 -> Celestion F10s / Pi2+DAC & SB3 -> Onkyo CRN755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - Pi2+DAC ->ToppingTP21 ->AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - SB Touch ->Sherwood AVR ->Mordaunt Short M10s Everything controlled by iPeng d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
d6jg wrote: > If you intend to sync all the Pi's wouldn't it actually be > better/cheaper to run a single Pi into a multi channel amplifier ? Hi, The case 'all synced' is not the only one. We are 4 people and probably our chidren will often choose their own music ... ClaudeBoulard's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=68413 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
ClaudeBoulard wrote: > Hi S2Kiwi, > > Thanks a lot for this information. > It confirms that, when possible, a wired connection should be more > stable than Wifi. > It makes sense for my installation, because all RPI boards will be at > the same location (in my cellar). > > I keep in mind the good idea of adjusting the transcoding settings. > > I guess I'll start by running the LMS server on a 'powerfull' RPI (3B), > and if not fast enough I'll use a more powerfull SBC (or a laptop). > > Thanks for all your information. > > Claude If you intend to sync all the Pi's wouldn't it actually be better/cheaper to run a single Pi into a multi channel amplifier ? VB2.4[/B] STORAGE *QNAP TS419P (NFS) [B]Living Room* - Joggler & SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 -> Celestion F20s *Office* - Pi3+Sreen -> Sony TAFE320 -> Celestion F10s / Pi2+DAC & SB3 -> Onkyo CRN755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes *Dining Room* -> SB Boom *Kitchen* -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio) *Bedroom (Bedside)* - Pi2+DAC ->ToppingTP21 ->AKG Headphones *Bedroom (TV)* - SB Touch ->Sherwood AVR ->Mordaunt Short M10s Everything controlled by iPeng d6jg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44051 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
Slightly late to this, but my experience may help give you some confidence... I am running, and regularly have sync'd playing across, 7 devices running 9 players. * 4 Pis on Ethernet running 6 players * 2 pis on wifi running 2 players * One official Squeezebox (3rd Gen) Ethernet + 3 or 4 control devices displaying currently playing (ipads, phones, etc) In addition, running a different stream (unsync'd) I have * 1 wifi Pi running 1 player (+joggler control unit) * 1 pi offsite (joined over a VPN) * 1 mobile device The sync across the 9 players works great, but adding extra wifi devices tends to cause problems. I originally had more on wifi and have rolled them back to ethernet to get things stable. Adding lower latency items (mobile device, vpn'd device) to a sync group makes everything skip badly (not surprisingly). Using a laptop for LMS I can easily play 9 sync'd, plus all of the others playing indpendantly, with no problems. Using a Pi for LMS this wasn't as smooth as I think the bandwidth was pushing things a bit much. ONE THING THAT HAS HELPED A LOT: I've set up the 'group players' plugin to make running groups incredibly easy. Best of all as it set this up as a 'virtual player' I have changed the transcoding settings for the group player to drop to 192, 160 or 128 depending on the groups to significantly reduce bandwidth through the house. THat way when I do settle down to really listen to something in the main room, I can just switch it on (rather than a group) and play full FLAC quality again. It's the best of both worlds. Another way to do this is just pick one of the lesser used players and downgrade it's transcoding (this is how I used to do it). Squeezebox downgrades all players to the lowest settings of all the devices in a sync group, so this achieves the same thing. Hope that helps. s2kiwi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=63950 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
Roland0 wrote: > 'This article ' > (https://www.qobuz.com/ie-en/info/hi-fi/bancs-d-essai/will-my-internet-bandwidth-be179216) > gives a good overview regarding audio streaming bandwidth requirements. > 'Here's' > (https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blogs/jeff-geerling/getting-gigabit-networking) > what you can expect various Pis to deliver. > I'd recommend running your own iperf benchmarks to see what throughput > your network / LMS server can sustain over a period. > After that, you could try running 10 squeezelite instances on your > existing devices (you should be able to run several squeezelite > instances on a single device, provided you use the null ALSA device for > output and give them unique ids). This way, you can run typical > scenarios (lossy or lossless, synchronized or not, ... ) while > monitoring your LMS server for bottlenecks and the squeezelites' logs > for errors. Hi, Thanks for the advice. I'll test this asap. Claude. ClaudeBoulard's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=68413 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
'This article ' (https://www.qobuz.com/ie-en/info/hi-fi/bancs-d-essai/will-my-internet-bandwidth-be179216) gives a good overview regarding audio streaming bandwidth requirements. 'Here's' (https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blogs/jeff-geerling/getting-gigabit-networking) what you can expect various Pis to deliver. I'd recommend running your own iperf benchmarks to see what throughput your network / LMS server can sustain over a period. After that, you could try running 10 squeezelite instances on your existing devices (you should be able to run several squeezelite instances on a single device, provided you use the null ALSA device for output and give them unique ids). This way, you can run typical scenarios (lossy or lossless, synchronized or not, ... ) while monitoring your LMS server for bottlenecks and the squeezelites' logs for errors. SW: 'Web UI for LMS' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98186-Announce-Alternative-Web-Interface-(beta)) | 'Playlist Editor / Generator' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108199-Announce-LMS-Playlist-Editor) | 'Music Classification' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108278-Announce-Essentia-Integration-music-classification-(moods-genres-)) | 'Similar Music' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?108495-Announce-LMSmusly-play-similar-music) | 'LMSlib2go' (https://www.nexus0.net/pub/sw/lmslib2go/) HowTos: 'build a self-contained LMS' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?99648-Howto-build-a-self-contained-LMS) | 'Ogg Opus' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?107011-Howto-play-Ogg-Opus-files) | 'Bluetooth/ALSA' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?107230-Howto-Bluetooth-streaming-to-from-LMS-(ALSA-only-no-PulseAudio)) Roland0's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56808 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
On CPU topic, if you want to keep Pi format, I can recommend odroid C2. True gigabit very stable distro and very powerful. The Asus tinkerboard is good on paper but awful in reality (I tried 2) Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk LMS 7.7, 7.8 and 7.9 - 5xRadio, 3xBoom, 4xDuet, 1xTouch, 1 SB2. Sonos PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBoxOne, XBMC, Foobar2000, ShairPortW, JRiver 21, 2xChromecast Audio, Chromecast v1 and v2, , Pi B3, B2, Pi B+, 2xPi A+, Odroid-C1, Odroid-C2, Cubie2, Yamaha WX-010, AppleTV 4, Airport Express, GGMM E5 philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
ClaudeBoulard wrote: > > MY goal will have 10 RPI players, and in some case I'd like to sync all > in the same group. That was the meaning of my question. > Hope that with a wired connection + 'powerfull' RPI server it will be > OK. > If that's a common thing you want to do I'd make sure: 1. you have players with a pretty stable clock. I don't know how good the RPi really is in this respect, one thing you definitely want to avoid are re-clocking DACs as that adds a lot of variance. The synchronization in the Squeezebox system works by having the slowest player drop samples to catch up when the difference reaches 10ms (this is configurable). If all players play at almost the same speed that's not a big issue and won't happen a lot but if you have high tolerances 10 players can add up quite a bit and then you get a lot of skipping, if the server no longer knows how to sync it re-sets the whole stream which gives you an audible timeout. 2. you take some care about the bandwidth. Whether you use WiFi or a wired connection doesn't matter in a Raspberry Pi system, the Pi's bottleneck is that all of it's peripherals - including networking - are connected through a single 30mbps USB-2-bus. Typically, this is primarily an issue for scanning large libraries (scanning a few 100 GB of music files over that connection takes a while) not so much for streaming, but with 10 devices, it depends on what you do. If you stream CD quality as FLAC (the default), that would be ~7.5mbps and that's probably OK. If you stream the same thing as PCM (WAV) it will get to around 14mbps and since there's overhead and also other stuff is going over the same connection since the same 30mbps bus is shared by ALL peripherals that will be a close call. If you have HD music with 96kHz sample rate or higher and 24 bit sample size you will get close with FALC, too, and it certainly won't work over PCM. In this case I'd recommend something more powerful than a Raspberry Pi as the server. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
ClaudeBoulard wrote: > Hi Pippin, > > MY goal will have 10 RPI players, and in some case I'd like to sync all > in the same group. That was the meaning of my question. > Hope that with a wired connection + 'powerfull' RPI server it will be > OK. > > Thanks for your information and suggestion. > > ClaudeMaybe you want to limit throughput only when all of them are synced and only in that case Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk LMS 7.7, 7.8 and 7.9 - 5xRadio, 3xBoom, 4xDuet, 1xTouch, 1 SB2. Sonos PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBoxOne, XBMC, Foobar2000, ShairPortW, JRiver 21, 2xChromecast Audio, Chromecast v1 and v2, , Pi B3, B2, Pi B+, 2xPi A+, Odroid-C1, Odroid-C2, Cubie2, Yamaha WX-010, AppleTV 4, Airport Express, GGMM E5 philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
pippin wrote: > Ummm, sure, a lot of us here have built such systems. > If you want to sync all 10 players together in one group youd need > players with very good timing or youll see dropouts but 3-4 per group > should also work with a RPi. > You should not run a player on the RPi that runs the server, it will lag > behind the others. > Also, with the limited bandwidth of the RPi you should probably not try > hi-res streaming (high sample rates etc.) with all 10 players playing > simultaneously. Hi Pippin, MY goal will have 10 RPI players, and in some case I'd like to sync all in the same group. That was the meaning of my question. Hope that with a wired connection + 'powerfull' RPI server it will be OK. Thanks for your information and suggestion. Claude ClaudeBoulard's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=68413 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
Ummm, sure, a lot of us here have built such systems. If you want to sync all 10 players together in one group youd need players with very good timing or youll see dropouts but 3-4 per group should also work with a RPi. You should not run a player on the RPi that runs the server, it will lag behind the others. Also, with the limited bandwidth of the RPi you should probably not try hi-res streaming (high sample rates etc.) with all 10 players playing simultaneously. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
Latency can depens a lot on the OS and the audio subsystem - Windows are usually the worst but a Rpi server may not be great with many players. syncing players also creates a latency - the more player the greater the possibility of latency due to syncing (each player have to achieve a certain buffer fullness before playing can start). 3 sec buffer are in the player - amount of data to be in player buffer before playback start s - set by the WEbUI Settings/Advanced/Network/Radio Station Buffer Seconds Compression into Flac can also buffer a lot of data so if you disable MP3 and Flac in the WebUI Setting/Advanced/Filetypes/WaveInput - you will get lower latency but requires a very good network (i.e. wired) and if you are syncing 10 players then unless all players are wired you will have big problems - even with a wired netrwork I think you'll have problems. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
Afiak analog source are fine like LP player or tuner , cassete etc. But the LMS system is simply not built for movie and TV purposes its a music streamer . Dont heard of anyone sucessfully getting laten y low enoigh for lipsync Main hifi: Rasbery PI digi+ MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Loggia: Raspi hifiberry dac + Adams Bathroom : Radio (with battery) iPad with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server Intel NUC Esxi VM Linux mint 18 LMS 7.9.2 http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
[SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] LMS / Max number of players and how to reduce latency
Hello, I'm planning to install a home automation system. I've already started some testing, especially for the multi-room audio function. My current test config is : - a RPI 3B running as server (Picoreplayer 3.50 with LMS activated), - 2 RPI zero (one with Justboom Amp, the other with Hifiberry DAC, both with Picoreplayer 3.50 and Squeezelite player activated). All this is running fine. My final config will integrate 10 players (10 RPI zero, with wired LAN), and if possible the ability to stream analogue audio with 'low' latency (typically 100 or 200 ms, mainly for TV audio). For this I've purchased a ADC + DAC module, plugged it onto the RPI server, and activated the Wavein plugin on this RPI. With this the LMS server can stream analogue audio, but the latency is high (about 3 seconds). So I have 2 questions : - has someone already tried a similar config : 10 RPI players + 1 RPI server, all wired connected ? - has someone tried to reduce the streaming latency, in the case of a local ADC source ? >From what I've seen on forums, LMS treats this ADC stream as a remote (Internet) stream, and so uses a reception buffer of about 3 seconds of data; which is probably oversized for a local stream. Maybe there is a better way to stream an analogue audio source ? Thanks for any information/suggestion. Claude ClaudeBoulard's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=68413 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=110197 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
