Re: [Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
On Mittwoch, 21. August 2019 01:06:07 CEST Dave Cridland wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 16:58, Jonas Schäfer wrote: > > On Dienstag, 20. August 2019 10:34:22 CEST Dave Cridland wrote: > > > > *PR #808 - XEP-0045: Add Tags configuration and metadata* - > > > > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/808 > > > > Dave: [pending] > > > > Georg: [on-list] > > > > Jonas: +1 > > > > Kev: [pending] > > > > Link: [on-list] > > > > > > I think I'm -1 on this. I don't think that having tags is a bad idea, in > > > and of itself, but I'm concerned with adding more stuff to XEP-0045. > > > > > > In general, I think that tagging in this "dumb" way is probably never > > > > going > > > > > to be enough, and a more considered approach might be better. > > > > > > For what it's worth, I'm open to having my mind changed on this. > > > > As someone in favour of this, what do you consider "dumb" about this? > > Dumb as in the tags are simply "there", and therefore only of use to an > external search engine, really. > > So things you can't do are filter by tag on a disco#items search, say, or > assign some internal meaning to specific tags for state management or > workflow or something. > > Put another way, I'm not sure this gives anything to build upon - it's just > a field of strings, and there's no indication of semantics or intended use > here. I can implement it easily enough from the spec, but I have no idea > how to use it beyond "put some strings here". > > Quite a lot of '45 is like this already, and I'd rather not make things > worse. Fair enough. Do you have a proposal with which we could provide a similar UX to users? kind regards, Jonas signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 16:58, Jonas Schäfer wrote: > On Dienstag, 20. August 2019 10:34:22 CEST Dave Cridland wrote: > > > *PR #808 - XEP-0045: Add Tags configuration and metadata* - > > > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/808 > > > Dave: [pending] > > > Georg: [on-list] > > > Jonas: +1 > > > Kev: [pending] > > > Link: [on-list] > > > > I think I'm -1 on this. I don't think that having tags is a bad idea, in > > and of itself, but I'm concerned with adding more stuff to XEP-0045. > > > > In general, I think that tagging in this "dumb" way is probably never > going > > to be enough, and a more considered approach might be better. > > > > For what it's worth, I'm open to having my mind changed on this. > > As someone in favour of this, what do you consider "dumb" about this? > > Dumb as in the tags are simply "there", and therefore only of use to an external search engine, really. So things you can't do are filter by tag on a disco#items search, say, or assign some internal meaning to specific tags for state management or workflow or something. Put another way, I'm not sure this gives anything to build upon - it's just a field of strings, and there's no indication of semantics or intended use here. I can implement it easily enough from the spec, but I have no idea how to use it beyond "put some strings here". Quite a lot of '45 is like this already, and I'd rather not make things worse. > In any case, I agree that putting this in the respective registries would > be > better, but as things stand at the moment, we don’t have a functioning > registry process. And I'm also not convinced that making this a separate > XEP > would be a good idea in general. > > Adding this to XEP-0045 does not hurt, IMO. > > kind regards, > Jonas___ > Standards mailing list > Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards > Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org > ___ > ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
On Dienstag, 20. August 2019 14:02:27 CEST Georg Lukas wrote: > > PR #808 - XEP-0045: Add Tags configuration and metadata - > > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/808 > -0. It _might_ make sense to have yet another way to describe a MUC, > besides of JID, name, description and subject, but I'd like to see a > strong rationale for that. Besides, I'd prefer to have user-defined > tags, akin to roster groups, that can be assigned to MUCs as well, and I > think having both would make for a horribly convoluted UX. The intent for this was to make it usable in search engines like [muclumbus]. I think those are orthogonal features, and I wouldn’t show the (MUC controlled) tags in client UIs beside search, to be honest. Tags were one of the first features informally requested against muclumbus after I launched it, and it was something I’d like to have had right from the start, too. Fulltext search in description and name and JID is nice and all, but you (as a user) need to know what keywords to search for (plus designing a working, usable fuzzy fulltext search is not trivial; PRs welcome). Tags would allow me (muclumbus hat on) to provide more useful search suggestions. kind regards, Jonas [muclumbus]: https://search.jabbercat.org. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
On Dienstag, 20. August 2019 10:34:22 CEST Dave Cridland wrote: > > *PR #808 - XEP-0045: Add Tags configuration and metadata* - > > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/808 > > Dave: [pending] > > Georg: [on-list] > > Jonas: +1 > > Kev: [pending] > > Link: [on-list] > > I think I'm -1 on this. I don't think that having tags is a bad idea, in > and of itself, but I'm concerned with adding more stuff to XEP-0045. > > In general, I think that tagging in this "dumb" way is probably never going > to be enough, and a more considered approach might be better. > > For what it's worth, I'm open to having my mind changed on this. As someone in favour of this, what do you consider "dumb" about this? In any case, I agree that putting this in the respective registries would be better, but as things stand at the moment, we don’t have a functioning registry process. And I'm also not convinced that making this a separate XEP would be a good idea in general. Adding this to XEP-0045 does not hurt, IMO. kind regards, Jonas signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
On 2019/08/20, Dave Cridland wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 13:03, Georg Lukas wrote: > > * Tedd Sterr [2019-08-18 23:00]: > > > PR #805 - XEP-0060: Add a pubsub#rsm disco#info feature to clear > > confusion - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/805 > > > > +1. I'd prefer to use `pubsub+rsm` and not `pubsub#rsm` (similar to > > +notify, and to make `disco#items+rsm` look less ugly), but this is not > > a hill I'm going to die on. > > > > > I quite like that idea, as well. I don't mind, I can update the PR if that's the preferred option. -- Maxime “pep” Buquet signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 13:03, Georg Lukas wrote: > * Tedd Sterr [2019-08-18 23:00]: > > PR #806 - XEP-0060: Add pubsub#public in Publish-Subscribe features - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/806 > > -0. I agree that this is a useful addition, but technically it belongs > into the registry in https://xmpp.org/registrar/disco-features.html and > not into 0060; or maybe both, because it modifies behavior. The behavior > modification is also something that demands a feature so that clients > can know whether they can count on the flag being used. Also what Dave > said regarding default values. > > > PR #808 - XEP-0045: Add Tags configuration and metadata - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/808 > > -0. It _might_ make sense to have yet another way to describe a MUC, > besides of JID, name, description and subject, but I'd like to see a > strong rationale for that. Besides, I'd prefer to have user-defined > tags, akin to roster groups, that can be assigned to MUCs as well, and I > think having both would make for a horribly convoluted UX. > > > PR #805 - XEP-0060: Add a pubsub#rsm disco#info feature to clear > confusion - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/805 > > +1. I'd prefer to use `pubsub+rsm` and not `pubsub#rsm` (similar to > +notify, and to make `disco#items+rsm` look less ugly), but this is not > a hill I'm going to die on. > > I quite like that idea, as well. > > Georg > -- > || http://op-co.de ++ GCS d--(++) s: a C+++ UL+++ !P L+++ !E W+++ N ++ > || gpg: 0x962FD2DE || o? K- w---() O M V? PS+ PE-- Y++ PGP+ t+ 5 R+ || > || Ge0rG: euIRCnet || X(+++) tv+ b+(++) DI+++ D- G e h- r++ y? || > ++ IRCnet OFTC OPN ||_|| > ___ > Standards mailing list > Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards > Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org > ___ > ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
* Tedd Sterr [2019-08-18 23:00]: > PR #806 - XEP-0060: Add pubsub#public in Publish-Subscribe features - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/806 -0. I agree that this is a useful addition, but technically it belongs into the registry in https://xmpp.org/registrar/disco-features.html and not into 0060; or maybe both, because it modifies behavior. The behavior modification is also something that demands a feature so that clients can know whether they can count on the flag being used. Also what Dave said regarding default values. > PR #808 - XEP-0045: Add Tags configuration and metadata - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/808 -0. It _might_ make sense to have yet another way to describe a MUC, besides of JID, name, description and subject, but I'd like to see a strong rationale for that. Besides, I'd prefer to have user-defined tags, akin to roster groups, that can be assigned to MUCs as well, and I think having both would make for a horribly convoluted UX. > PR #805 - XEP-0060: Add a pubsub#rsm disco#info feature to clear confusion - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/805 +1. I'd prefer to use `pubsub+rsm` and not `pubsub#rsm` (similar to +notify, and to make `disco#items+rsm` look less ugly), but this is not a hill I'm going to die on. Georg -- || http://op-co.de ++ GCS d--(++) s: a C+++ UL+++ !P L+++ !E W+++ N ++ || gpg: 0x962FD2DE || o? K- w---() O M V? PS+ PE-- Y++ PGP+ t+ 5 R+ || || Ge0rG: euIRCnet || X(+++) tv+ b+(++) DI+++ D- G e h- r++ y? || ++ IRCnet OFTC OPN ||_|| signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 21:59, Tedd Sterr wrote: > *2019-07-31 (expired 2019-08-14)* > > VETOED (-5:0:+0) > *PR #801 - XEP-0368: clarify fallback behavior on SRV failure* - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/801 > Dave: -1 (don't think I like possibly anything about this) > Georg: -1 (agree with Jonas) > Jonas: -1 (inappropriate port choice; doesn't clarify, but changes > behaviour; contradicts normal SRV working; logically incoherent regarding > trust of DNS) > Kev: -1 (don't like it at all; in comparison, #796 seems logical) > Link: -1 (same reasons as Jonas) > > PASSED (-0:0:+5) > *PR #803 - Obsolete Compliance Suites 2018* - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/803 > Dave: +1 > Georg: +1 > Jonas: +1 > Kev: +1 > Link: +1 > > > *2019-08-07 (expiring 2019-08-21)* > > *PR #806 - XEP-0060: Add pubsub#public in Publish-Subscribe features* - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/806 > Dave: [pending] > Georg: [on-list] > Jonas: [on-list] > Kev: [pending] > Link: [on-list] > > I'm essentially +1 but I think this needs to make clear what the default, if any, is. Alternately, what the behaviour is if this configurable is not present. Perhaps it even needs a disco feature? Maybe one to discuss before we merge this? > *PR #808 - XEP-0045: Add Tags configuration and metadata* - > https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/808 > Dave: [pending] > Georg: [on-list] > Jonas: +1 > Kev: [pending] > Link: [on-list] > > I think I'm -1 on this. I don't think that having tags is a bad idea, in and of itself, but I'm concerned with adding more stuff to XEP-0045. In general, I think that tagging in this "dumb" way is probably never going to be enough, and a more considered approach might be better. For what it's worth, I'm open to having my mind changed on this. > *PR #805 - XEP-0060: Add a pubsub#rsm disco#info feature to clear > confusion* - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/805 > Dave: [pending] > Georg: [on-list] > Jonas: +1 > Kev: [pending] > Link: +1 > > I worry a bit that RSM is always a bit of a guessing game in what features it is used in, but this seems like the best available approach. +1. ___ > Standards mailing list > Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards > Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org > ___ > ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
[Standards] Council Voting Summary 2019-08-18
2019-07-31 (expired 2019-08-14) VETOED (-5:0:+0) PR #801 - XEP-0368: clarify fallback behavior on SRV failure - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/801 Dave: -1 (don't think I like possibly anything about this) Georg: -1 (agree with Jonas) Jonas: -1 (inappropriate port choice; doesn't clarify, but changes behaviour; contradicts normal SRV working; logically incoherent regarding trust of DNS) Kev: -1 (don't like it at all; in comparison, #796 seems logical) Link: -1 (same reasons as Jonas) PASSED (-0:0:+5) PR #803 - Obsolete Compliance Suites 2018 - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/803 Dave: +1 Georg: +1 Jonas: +1 Kev: +1 Link: +1 2019-08-07 (expiring 2019-08-21) PR #806 - XEP-0060: Add pubsub#public in Publish-Subscribe features - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/806 Dave: [pending] Georg: [on-list] Jonas: [on-list] Kev: [pending] Link: [on-list] PR #808 - XEP-0045: Add Tags configuration and metadata - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/808 Dave: [pending] Georg: [on-list] Jonas: +1 Kev: [pending] Link: [on-list] PR #805 - XEP-0060: Add a pubsub#rsm disco#info feature to clear confusion - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/805 Dave: [pending] Georg: [on-list] Jonas: +1 Kev: [pending] Link: +1 ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
