Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Excerpts from Gary Martin's message of Sat Dec 11 05:05:07 +0100 2010: (and perhaps we could add a 'send a notification' submenu to the friends icons on the Frame as well). I'm still thinking on that one... Chat type notifications from friends would seem like the ideal case for a consolidated, time ordered list of chat messages (not mixed in with other notification types), so you could actually have a valid conversation flow with collaborating buddies. If new messages were shown attached to the given buddy icon context, you'd be hard pressed to follow the sequence of a conversation (that UI would only really work for one on one private conversation flow). I don't think chatting is a good use case for notifications. And we already have XMPP and the Chat activity (they even work with non-Sugar users up to some extent!) for that. If there's something about it that you don't like, please bring it up so we can fix Chat (or XMPP support in general) instead of bending new tools to do the same. One improvement that came up in the past but never got implemented is overlay chat for activities [1]. Sascha [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/images/0/0e/Overlay_chat_sketch.pdf -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Excerpts from Anish Mangal's message of Wed Nov 17 15:02:56 +0100 2010: * On top of ui changes, would it also make sense to play some 'notification' sounds as well? The HIG doesn't say anything about sounds AFAIK That would be useful in some cases, but we need to be careful. We don't want a) audio spam b) to annoy the environment / embarrass the user (think of your phone ringing while you're in class) Let's leave that for the next iteration. * Or flashing an icon or doing 'something' with the UI exactly when the notification occurs. We already do, but it's too subtle. Subtlety is good (counters the danger of visual spam), but I often miss the notification (which obviously isn't good). Your screenshot [1] looks very good to me. How about adding another button Display next 5 notations next to the Clear one. Something like that would be fine, except that I'd let it open the activity-centric view [2] in the Journal instead of displaying the additional items inside the palette (as I suppose you wanted to do). Sascha [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Designs/Journal#01 -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Sascha Silbe sascha-ml-reply-to-201...@silbe.org wrote: Excerpts from Gary Martin's message of Sat Dec 11 05:05:07 +0100 2010: (and perhaps we could add a 'send a notification' submenu to the friends icons on the Frame as well). I'm still thinking on that one... Chat type notifications from friends would seem like the ideal case for a consolidated, time ordered list of chat messages (not mixed in with other notification types), so you could actually have a valid conversation flow with collaborating buddies. If new messages were shown attached to the given buddy icon context, you'd be hard pressed to follow the sequence of a conversation (that UI would only really work for one on one private conversation flow). I don't think chatting is a good use case for notifications. And we already have XMPP and the Chat activity (they even work with non-Sugar users up to some extent!) for that. If there's something about it that you don't like, please bring it up so we can fix Chat (or XMPP support in general) instead of bending new tools to do the same. One improvement that came up in the past but never got implemented is overlay chat for activities [1]. The idea, not well expressed in my earlier post, would be to use the Buddy Section of the Frame to initiate an 'overlay' chat among those sharing an activity. It probably should be done using XMPP as you suggest, but it is different from the Chat activity in several respects: (1) it automatically enrolls anyone who is joined to the shared activity (2) it appears as an overlay, not a full-screen activity I don't think we want the Chat activity to evolve in these directions. From the UI perspective, it would seem that http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications#Notification_history_as_a_device_icon but using a Chat icon on the Buddy Section of the Frame would be a decent approximation of what we want. The 'floating' feature in the original design adds additional complexity -- multiple threads in multiple locations -- that I think we could do with out in an incremental approach. In any case, it is different from Notification, the subject of this thread. We can perhaps start a separate discussion under a new Subject going forward about Chat. -walter Sascha [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/images/0/0e/Overlay_chat_sketch.pdf -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hi Sascha, On 11 Dec 2010, at 09:40, Sascha Silbe sascha-ml-reply-to-201...@silbe.org wrote: Excerpts from Gary Martin's message of Sat Dec 11 05:05:07 +0100 2010: (and perhaps we could add a 'send a notification' submenu to the friends icons on the Frame as well). I'm still thinking on that one... Chat type notifications from friends would seem like the ideal case for a consolidated, time ordered list of chat messages (not mixed in with other notification types), so you could actually have a valid conversation flow with collaborating buddies. If new messages were shown attached to the given buddy icon context, you'd be hard pressed to follow the sequence of a conversation (that UI would only really work for one on one private conversation flow). I don't think chatting is a good use case for notifications. Agreed, I tried to make that clear in some of my previous emails, however top right corner pulse notifications 'may' provide the way to reveal this activity without too much screen intrusion, along with (possibly) buddy badges. And we already have XMPP and the Chat activity (they even work with non-Sugar users up to some extent!) for that. If there's something about it that you don't like, please bring it up so we can fix Chat (or XMPP support in general) instead of bending new tools to do the same. This is not the same as a specific Chat focused activity. Activity collaboration already provides a Chat channel for free, but it is not exposed by Sugar. I think there may have been one exception here for a board game activity that put this chat channel in a split screen of the activity. Using the frame would allow the Sugar shell to manage the chat channel for all activities, suddenly every activity automatically gains a useful collaboration feature! One improvement that came up in the past but never got implemented is overlay chat for activities [1]. Yes, this is just the kind of use I was trying to cover, perhaps using a top right corner pulse to indicate that an buddy chat message arrived, and then a right frame edge icon to reveal the actual text when the owner wants to see it (or alternatively badging a right frame edge buddy icon and adding the text message there). One complication is that each shared activity has a separate chat channel, so if you are using Paint, and a message arrives from a user in Moon, the notification needs to indicate which activity the new buddy message can be found in. Regards, --Gary Sascha [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/images/0/0e/Overlay_chat_sketch.pdf -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Sascha, On 11 Dec 2010, at 09:40, Sascha Silbe sascha-ml-reply-to-201...@silbe.org wrote: Excerpts from Gary Martin's message of Sat Dec 11 05:05:07 +0100 2010: (and perhaps we could add a 'send a notification' submenu to the friends icons on the Frame as well). I'm still thinking on that one... Chat type notifications from friends would seem like the ideal case for a consolidated, time ordered list of chat messages (not mixed in with other notification types), so you could actually have a valid conversation flow with collaborating buddies. If new messages were shown attached to the given buddy icon context, you'd be hard pressed to follow the sequence of a conversation (that UI would only really work for one on one private conversation flow). I don't think chatting is a good use case for notifications. Agreed, I tried to make that clear in some of my previous emails, however top right corner pulse notifications 'may' provide the way to reveal this activity without too much screen intrusion, along with (possibly) buddy badges. And we already have XMPP and the Chat activity (they even work with non-Sugar users up to some extent!) for that. If there's something about it that you don't like, please bring it up so we can fix Chat (or XMPP support in general) instead of bending new tools to do the same. This is not the same as a specific Chat focused activity. Activity collaboration already provides a Chat channel for free, but it is not exposed by Sugar. I think there may have been one exception here for a board game activity that put this chat channel in a split screen of the activity. Using the frame would allow the Sugar shell to manage the chat channel for all activities, suddenly every activity automatically gains a useful collaboration feature! One improvement that came up in the past but never got implemented is overlay chat for activities [1]. Yes, this is just the kind of use I was trying to cover, perhaps using a top right corner pulse to indicate that an buddy chat message arrived, and then a right frame edge icon to reveal the actual text when the owner wants to see it (or alternatively badging a right frame edge buddy icon and adding the text message there). One complication is that each shared activity has a separate chat channel, so if you are using Paint, and a message arrives from a user in Moon, the notification needs to indicate which activity the new buddy message can be found in. It seems then that notification and activity-specific chat are linked. Why not put the notification on the activity icon on the Frame and use a chat that is similar to your previous design for system-wide chat that appears with the buddies on a per-activity basis? -walter Regards, --Gary Sascha [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/images/0/0e/Overlay_chat_sketch.pdf -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hi Martin, On 8 Dec 2010, at 05:11, Martin Abente wrote: The design looks great, and I like the fact that it attaches each notification to its real context when there is a visible one (i,e an activity, journal, battery device icon, etc). How would it work with notifications that are not related to an activity or with a visible context? Notifications not related to an activity or existing visible context would pulse and add new icons in the same way that transfer to/from notifications are designed. Here's an example showing your schoolserver institutional broadcast message example: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications#School_server_messages I am rather worried at the amount of use cases being raised, constant outside distractions and notifications are a productivity and deep thought killer. Hopefully you're just trying to make sure a design can cover all your possible base cases ;-) I'd actually like to raise a possible 'simple' stepping stone approach: - code is implemented to allow badging of frame icons - existing activity alert code is updated so that when an activity alert strip is raised, it triggers the corner pulse and badges the activities icon (if the given activity is not currently front most). This would allow existing activity alerts to be noticed at any time, switching to the activity with the badge would allow you read the actual text in the already implemented alert strip, and take any action necessary. Additional alerts (say for the Journal) could be used to notify of low storage space, backup failures. Institutional broadcast messages (or any message from your schoolserver), is really a separate feature, much like the transfer to/from work, so could be added at any time. Regards, --Gary Possible use cases (examples): * XS registration messages. * Automatic updater messages. * Sugar critical errors report. * Institutional broadcast messages. * Anything that simply requires displaying a message. On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, On 23 Nov 2010, at 17:23, Martin Abente wrote: Awesome, let me know whenever you got something to share :) Just wanted to pass on the wiki page I've been working on. I'd like to generate more example mockups covering the devices frame edge (easy), and the buddy frame edge (more complicated, though we could use this edge just for arrival/departure/buddy-event, but it might be possible to have it cover 'bubble chat' as per Eben's previous hopes): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications Feedback/thoughts appreciated. Regards, --Gary On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, Just wanted to give you a heads up that I have a slightly different design coming together for notifications. After further, more detailed, work the frame corner notification history palette idea is not coming together so well. I've switched to mockups that actually badge the existing icons in the frame, and add the notification messages to the end of their existing pop-up palettes. It holds truer (I think) to the original HIG and previous mockups of Eben's intent for notifications. I'll try and get the set of new images uploaded to the wiki later this week for folks to review. Regards, --Gary On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hi Walter, On 7 Dec 2010, at 10:40, Walter Bender wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, On 23 Nov 2010, at 17:23, Martin Abente wrote: Awesome, let me know whenever you got something to share :) Just wanted to pass on the wiki page I've been working on. I'd like to generate more example mockups covering the devices frame edge (easy), and the buddy frame edge (more complicated, though we could use this edge just for arrival/departure/buddy-event, but it might be possible to have it cover 'bubble chat' as per Eben's previous hopes): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications Feedback/thoughts appreciated. Regards, --Gary I like both approaches, actually. Arrrgh, nooo. I wasn't suggesting both! ;-) The first, with the badges, closely associates the notification with its context and the corner history let's you get an overview. Yes I think keeping the notification close to its actual context is pretty critical. What if the corner history were instead added to the bottom of the frame as another system status tool and the badges were used as per the example. Here's a mockup: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications#Notification_history_as_a_device_icon I guess a deployment that thinks this an important way to view a consolidated list of notifications could include such a device icon in their distro (much like the cpu load happy/sad face), but for me it looses the spacial context with the object that is actual trying to notify you of some event. (and perhaps we could add a 'send a notification' submenu to the friends icons on the Frame as well). I'm still thinking on that one... Chat type notifications from friends would seem like the ideal case for a consolidated, time ordered list of chat messages (not mixed in with other notification types), so you could actually have a valid conversation flow with collaborating buddies. If new messages were shown attached to the given buddy icon context, you'd be hard pressed to follow the sequence of a conversation (that UI would only really work for one on one private conversation flow). Regards, --Gary -walter On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, Just wanted to give you a heads up that I have a slightly different design coming together for notifications. After further, more detailed, work the frame corner notification history palette idea is not coming together so well. I've switched to mockups that actually badge the existing icons in the frame, and add the notification messages to the end of their existing pop-up palettes. It holds truer (I think) to the original HIG and previous mockups of Eben's intent for notifications. I'll try and get the set of new images uploaded to the wiki later this week for folks to review. Regards, --Gary On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.comwrote:
Hi Martin,
On 8 Dec 2010, at 05:11, Martin Abente wrote:
The design looks great, and I like the fact that it attaches each
notification to its real context when there is a visible one (i,e an
activity, journal, battery device icon, etc).
How would it work with notifications that are not related to an activity
or with a visible context?
Notifications not related to an activity or existing visible context would
pulse and add new icons in the same way that transfer to/from notifications
are designed. Here's an example showing your schoolserver institutional
broadcast message example:
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications#School_server_messages
Thanks for these mock-ups!
As an aside, but relevant to implementation design, the schoolserver icon
colors should probably be determined by a characteristic of the schoolserver
(for consistency among learners or on instances with different learner
names), much like the access point colors are derived from the SSID.
--Fred
I am rather worried at the amount of use cases being raised, constant
outside distractions and notifications are a productivity and deep thought
killer. Hopefully you're just trying to make sure a design can cover all
your possible base cases ;-)
{...}
--Gary
Possible use cases (examples):
* XS registration messages.
* Automatic updater messages.
* Sugar critical errors report.
* Institutional broadcast messages.
* Anything that simply requires displaying a message.
{...}
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hi Frederick,
On 11 Dec 2010, at 04:24, Frederick Grose fgr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com
wrote:
Hi Martin,
On 8 Dec 2010, at 05:11, Martin Abente wrote:
The design looks great, and I like the fact that it attaches each
notification to its real context when there is a visible one (i,e an
activity, journal, battery device icon, etc).
How would it work with notifications that are not related to an activity or
with a visible context?
Notifications not related to an activity or existing visible context would
pulse and add new icons in the same way that transfer to/from notifications
are designed. Here's an example showing your schoolserver institutional
broadcast message example:
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications#School_server_messages
Thanks for these mock-ups!
As an aside, but relevant to implementation design, the schoolserver icon
colors should probably be determined by a characteristic of the schoolserver
(for consistency among learners or on instances with different learner
names), much like the access point colors are derived from the SSID.
Absolutely +1 from me:) However, I conciously used the owners colour in this
mockup as it is how the schoolserver icon is currently being coloured (in
Dextrose, for the backup/restore to schoolserver Journal feature; no one else
is using it to my knowledge). The schoolserver icon (with it's unique colours
based on its own identity key) should also appear in the neighbourhood view
allowing registration (rather than the current hack of having register via the
users XO icon palette), and would help provide some visual cue as a
child/teacher moves from one school or network to another, as they would see
the different colour icon and be able to re-register to that new server.
Regards,
--Gary
--Fred
I am rather worried at the amount of use cases being raised, constant outside
distractions and notifications are a productivity and deep thought killer.
Hopefully you're just trying to make sure a design can cover all your
possible base cases ;-)
{...}
--Gary
Possible use cases (examples):
* XS registration messages.
* Automatic updater messages.
* Sugar critical errors report.
* Institutional broadcast messages.
* Anything that simply requires displaying a message.
{...}
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, On 23 Nov 2010, at 17:23, Martin Abente wrote: Awesome, let me know whenever you got something to share :) Just wanted to pass on the wiki page I've been working on. I'd like to generate more example mockups covering the devices frame edge (easy), and the buddy frame edge (more complicated, though we could use this edge just for arrival/departure/buddy-event, but it might be possible to have it cover 'bubble chat' as per Eben's previous hopes): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications Feedback/thoughts appreciated. Regards, --Gary I like both approaches, actually. The first, with the badges, closely associates the notification with its context and the corner history let's you get an overview. What if the corner history were instead added to the bottom of the frame as another system status tool and the badges were used as per the example. (and perhaps we could add a 'send a notification' submenu to the friends icons on the Frame as well). -walter On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, Just wanted to give you a heads up that I have a slightly different design coming together for notifications. After further, more detailed, work the frame corner notification history palette idea is not coming together so well. I've switched to mockups that actually badge the existing icons in the frame, and add the notification messages to the end of their existing pop-up palettes. It holds truer (I think) to the original HIG and previous mockups of Eben's intent for notifications. I'll try and get the set of new images uploaded to the wiki later this week for folks to review. Regards, --Gary On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, On 23 Nov 2010, at 17:23, Martin Abente wrote: Awesome, let me know whenever you got something to share :) Just wanted to pass on the wiki page I've been working on. I'd like to generate more example mockups covering the devices frame edge (easy), and the buddy frame edge (more complicated, though we could use this edge just for arrival/departure/buddy-event, but it might be possible to have it cover 'bubble chat' as per Eben's previous hopes): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications Feedback/thoughts appreciated. Regards, --Gary I like both approaches, actually. The first, with the badges, closely associates the notification with its context and the corner history let's you get an overview. What if the corner history were instead added to the bottom of the frame as another system status tool and the badges were used as per the example. (and perhaps we could add a 'send a notification' submenu to the friends icons on the Frame as well). Would it make sense to associate notifications with the different zoom levels, viz. neighborhood, group, home, activity and perhaps associate the badges with with their corresponding icons on the top left corner of the frame? -walter On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, Just wanted to give you a heads up that I have a slightly different design coming together for notifications. After further, more detailed, work the frame corner notification history palette idea is not coming together so well. I've switched to mockups that actually badge the existing icons in the frame, and add the notification messages to the end of their existing pop-up palettes. It holds truer (I think) to the original HIG and previous mockups of Eben's intent for notifications. I'll try and get the set of new images uploaded to the wiki later this week for folks to review. Regards, --Gary On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Anish ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:40 AM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: I like both approaches, actually. The first, with the badges, closely associates the notification with its context and the corner history let's you get an overview. I like the first approach, for the same reasons as Walter. Much more than the corner alternative. The corner is super-valuable -- it's the easiest location to hit with a mouse/tp so let's preserve it, or use it for something uniquely important. cheers, m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
The design looks great, and I like the fact that it attaches each notification to its real context when there is a visible one (i,e an activity, journal, battery device icon, etc). How would it work with notifications that are not related to an activity or with a visible context? Possible use cases (examples): * XS registration messages. * Automatic updater messages. * Sugar critical errors report. * Institutional broadcast messages. * Anything that simply requires displaying a message. On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Gary Martin garycmar...@googlemail.comwrote: Hi Martin, On 23 Nov 2010, at 17:23, Martin Abente wrote: Awesome, let me know whenever you got something to share :) Just wanted to pass on the wiki page I've been working on. I'd like to generate more example mockups covering the devices frame edge (easy), and the buddy frame edge (more complicated, though we could use this edge just for arrival/departure/buddy-event, but it might be possible to have it cover 'bubble chat' as per Eben's previous hopes): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications Feedback/thoughts appreciated. Regards, --Gary On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, Just wanted to give you a heads up that I have a slightly different design coming together for notifications. After further, more detailed, work the frame corner notification history palette idea is not coming together so well. I've switched to mockups that actually badge the existing icons in the frame, and add the notification messages to the end of their existing pop-up palettes. It holds truer (I think) to the original HIG and previous mockups of Eben's intent for notifications. I'll try and get the set of new images uploaded to the wiki later this week for folks to review. Regards, --Gary On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hi Martin, On 23 Nov 2010, at 17:23, Martin Abente wrote: Awesome, let me know whenever you got something to share :) Just wanted to pass on the wiki page I've been working on. I'd like to generate more example mockups covering the devices frame edge (easy), and the buddy frame edge (more complicated, though we could use this edge just for arrival/departure/buddy-event, but it might be possible to have it cover 'bubble chat' as per Eben's previous hopes): http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Notifications Feedback/thoughts appreciated. Regards, --Gary On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi Martin, Just wanted to give you a heads up that I have a slightly different design coming together for notifications. After further, more detailed, work the frame corner notification history palette idea is not coming together so well. I've switched to mockups that actually badge the existing icons in the frame, and add the notification messages to the end of their existing pop-up palettes. It holds truer (I think) to the original HIG and previous mockups of Eben's intent for notifications. I'll try and get the set of new images uploaded to the wiki later this week for folks to review. Regards, --Gary On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Awesome, let me know whenever you got something to share :) On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Gary C Martin garycmar...@googlemail.comwrote: Hi Martin, Just wanted to give you a heads up that I have a slightly different design coming together for notifications. After further, more detailed, work the frame corner notification history palette idea is not coming together so well. I've switched to mockups that actually badge the existing icons in the frame, and add the notification messages to the end of their existing pop-up palettes. It holds truer (I think) to the original HIG and previous mockups of Eben's intent for notifications. I'll try and get the set of new images uploaded to the wiki later this week for folks to review. Regards, --Gary On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hi Martin, Just wanted to give you a heads up that I have a slightly different design coming together for notifications. After further, more detailed, work the frame corner notification history palette idea is not coming together so well. I've switched to mockups that actually badge the existing icons in the frame, and add the notification messages to the end of their existing pop-up palettes. It holds truer (I think) to the original HIG and previous mockups of Eben's intent for notifications. I'll try and get the set of new images uploaded to the wiki later this week for folks to review. Regards, --Gary On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:10:23PM -0600, David Farning wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 2:07 AM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: * Why the user should start an activity to know what is happening? Why/when does the user want to know what's happening? Users are busy doing something interesting... We should interrupt/hassle the user never. Or extremely seldom. MartinL I think this is one of the times where we need to agree to disagree. There is a very good chance that this patch set will never make it into Sugar.Main. What you are saying is 100% true from an end users point of view. This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? [description of a support staff] You forgot to explain why you think answering that question using such a support staff is usefully done using for or so messages of ~60 or fewer English characters[1] and while not telling them about the Log Activity. tch's proposal is more than the point you've responded to, and looks[1] promising (IMO, as long as it doesn't interrupt / hassle the user more than we already do), but I don't understand why you think the notifications will make a big difference for you in the field. I agree it doesn't have a place in Sugar. I guess you'll discuss the Dextrose-specific bits on the desxtrose mailing list. I'm interested to hear what you find out. david Martin 1. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Corner_notification_message_only_history.png pgpuyAr6vEV50.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 02:44:16PM -0200, Daniel Castelo wrote: Maybe we could group all the notifications that are repeated. Journal is Full... (X 3) Other Warning.. Other Warning (X2). Definitely. Could be useful show the date of the problem in the case of historical warnings. sort of like: Nov 18 16:28:53 solaris.machine.some.com automountd[18246]: [ID 834250 daemon.error] Mount of /xxx on /yyy: No such file or directory Nov 18 16:40:54 solaris.machine.some.com last message repeated 2 times syslogd does...? What happens when the user clicks on a notification? Perhaps Log should be launched showing the file / line in question? Martin pgpZaA7l2rLXd.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hello again, (At this point I guess I have like 3 threads about this topic, so I better stick to one, Sorry if there was any confusion) Any ways, last night Gary and I had a very productive chat about the Look and Feel of this feature. In my first proposal [1], the notification icons (w/ messages palettes) would appear at each corner depending on the nature of the message (activities, users or devices). But could not find a good mechanism to place/represent the historical registry. As you can see at [2] I just placed a new HTray on the bottom frame bar, but apparently this would: * Create much spam. * Mix the different messages types again. So, last night, we discussed how we could keep the messages historical with out generating much spam and without mixing the notifications types. Gary proposed an special icon on each corner with a palette that would contain the last N (N=5) messages notifications [3]. So far, I think this is the best idea we got :), but I guess it is important to have the approval of other members, So please everyone take a look at [3] and give us some feedback before my implementation gets to that point. 1. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Messages_Notification 2. http://people.sugarlabs.org/~tch/images/Screenshot-19.png 3. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Corner_notification_message_only_history.png ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, [snip] So far, I think this is the best idea we got :), but I guess it is important to have the approval of other members, So please everyone take a look at [3] and give us some feedback before my implementation gets to that point. 1. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Messages_Notification 2. http://people.sugarlabs.org/~tch/images/Screenshot-19.png 3. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Corner_notification_message_only_history.png This is visually consistent with our other use of menus. Presumably the most recent message will pop up first and the rest of the list will appear after a delay? Any reason not to have a single Journal entry that accumulates all the messages over time so that even if you clear the list, you have a record? -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, [snip] So far, I think this is the best idea we got :), but I guess it is important to have the approval of other members, So please everyone take a look at [3] and give us some feedback before my implementation gets to that point. 1. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Messages_Notification 2. http://people.sugarlabs.org/~tch/images/Screenshot-19.pnghttp://people.sugarlabs.org/%7Etch/images/Screenshot-19.png 3. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Corner_notification_message_only_history.png This is visually consistent with our other use of menus. Presumably the most recent message will pop up first and the rest of the list will appear after a delay? Yes, also the notification protocol specifications defines an urgency level that could modify the appearing order. Any reason not to have a single Journal entry that accumulates all the messages over time so that even if you clear the list, you have a record? +1, even though I don't see the point of saving _all_ the messages notifications, it would be great to have that option for each notification individually (the user should save it explicitly if he finds it useful). It would make sense for many scenarios. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
* On top of ui changes, would it also make sense to play some 'notification' sounds as well? The HIG doesn't say anything about sounds AFAIK * Or flashing an icon or doing 'something' with the UI exactly when the notification occurs. * Also, what about conditionally (based on importance, urgency) displaying un-addressed notifications (or bringing up the frame) as soon as sugar UI boots up. Your screenshot [1] looks very good to me. How about adding another button Display next 5 notations next to the Clear one. [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Corner_notification_message_only_history.png On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, [snip] So far, I think this is the best idea we got :), but I guess it is important to have the approval of other members, So please everyone take a look at [3] and give us some feedback before my implementation gets to that point. 1. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Messages_Notification 2. http://people.sugarlabs.org/~tch/images/Screenshot-19.png 3. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Corner_notification_message_only_history.png This is visually consistent with our other use of menus. Presumably the most recent message will pop up first and the rest of the list will appear after a delay? Yes, also the notification protocol specifications defines an urgency level that could modify the appearing order. Any reason not to have a single Journal entry that accumulates all the messages over time so that even if you clear the list, you have a record? +1, even though I don't see the point of saving _all_ the messages notifications, it would be great to have that option for each notification individually (the user should save it explicitly if he finds it useful). It would make sense for many scenarios. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Anish ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Maybe we could group all the notifications that are repeated. Journal is Full... (X 3) Other Warning.. Other Warning (X2). Could be useful show the date of the problem in the case of historical warnings. On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Anish Mangal anishmangal2...@gmail.comwrote: * On top of ui changes, would it also make sense to play some 'notification' sounds as well? The HIG doesn't say anything about sounds AFAIK * Or flashing an icon or doing 'something' with the UI exactly when the notification occurs. * Also, what about conditionally (based on importance, urgency) displaying un-addressed notifications (or bringing up the frame) as soon as sugar UI boots up. Your screenshot [1] looks very good to me. How about adding another button Display next 5 notations next to the Clear one. [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Corner_notification_message_only_history.png On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, [snip] So far, I think this is the best idea we got :), but I guess it is important to have the approval of other members, So please everyone take a look at [3] and give us some feedback before my implementation gets to that point. 1. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Messages_Notification 2. http://people.sugarlabs.org/~tch/images/Screenshot-19.pnghttp://people.sugarlabs.org/%7Etch/images/Screenshot-19.png 3. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Corner_notification_message_only_history.png This is visually consistent with our other use of menus. Presumably the most recent message will pop up first and the rest of the list will appear after a delay? Yes, also the notification protocol specifications defines an urgency level that could modify the appearing order. Any reason not to have a single Journal entry that accumulates all the messages over time so that even if you clear the list, you have a record? +1, even though I don't see the point of saving _all_ the messages notifications, it would be great to have that option for each notification individually (the user should save it explicitly if he finds it useful). It would make sense for many scenarios. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Anish ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Ing. Daniel Castelo Plan Ceibal - Área Técnica Avda. Italia 6201 Montevideo - Uruguay. Tel.: 2 601 57 73 Interno 2228 E-mail : dcast...@plan.ceibal.edu.uy ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 2:07 AM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: * Why the user should start an activity to know what is happening? Why/when does the user want to know what's happening? Users are busy doing something interesting... We should interrupt/hassle the user never. Or extremely seldom. m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Just to clarify, this feature is not intended to replace the log. (apparently some people got the wrong idea) It is needed in many scenarios, as a general mechanism to communicate important events to the user, that until now (and already) we have been re-inventing the wheel every time we wanted to show a message abusing from Alerts here and there. (which, in my opinion is way more interruptive). Saludos :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 2:07 AM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: * Why the user should start an activity to know what is happening? Why/when does the user want to know what's happening? Users are busy doing something interesting... We should interrupt/hassle the user never. Or extremely seldom. m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 2:07 AM, Martin Abente martin.abente.lah...@gmail.com wrote: * Why the user should start an activity to know what is happening? Why/when does the user want to know what's happening? Users are busy doing something interesting... We should interrupt/hassle the user never. Or extremely seldom. MartinL I think this is one of the times where we need to agree to disagree. There is a very good chance that this patch set will never make it into Sugar.Main. What you are saying is 100% true from an end users point of view. This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? A pretty typical 'support' staff consists of: Users - Students who fix their own problems. Teachers - Usually have very limited time and technical training - In general, teachers prefer to 'work around' known bug rather than figure out how to report them. Teachers trainers - It is quite common for deployments to have teacher trainers to improve teaching efficacy. In general, teacher trainers are also time constrained because they focus on the educational, rather than technical, implementation issues. Level I Service and Support - It is becoming common for established deployments to outsource level I service and Support to local businesses. This group is also constrained. They often work remotely. There is travel time required to get to a school or class room. Their required skill sets are often very broad; hardware, software, networking. And so it goes until an issue is fixed or is escalated until it reaches the level of someone on sugar-devel. Everyone on sugar-devel is time constrained. They are pull in a hundred direction at any given time. This patch will introduce a cost of user disruption, but hopefully will provide the benefit of increased efficacy of existing service and support channels. This place has a place but that place is probably not sugar.main. david ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hi Martin, On 17 Nov 2010, at 19:17, Martin Abente wrote: Change the want for need and we have: When there is something they _need_ to know And that is exactly the same reason why we are already using the Icon notifications and the same reason why we are already using Alert widgets all over sugar (outside activities), and there are still more cases that we don't do because we simply don't have this feature fully implemented yet. That's all i got. I'm just running through another more interesting notification mockup, specifically of each of the proposed frame corner notification history palettes, as these seem the feature you/dextrose need/want to focus on. Before we go too much further, could you/dextrose provide a list of some example notification messages that you want to provide the user, and if possible what you think a user would do with that information? 'Just useful to know', 'look in some help activity/document/web page', 'go to the teacher and ask', 'record in some way for future correspondence' are all reasonable user outcomes. David seemed to touch on this in his previous email referencing 'typical support staff'. I just want to get a clearer idea of what you/dextrose hope to achieve via the notification effort. So far, just to summarise things, the concrete examples I've seen are: Journal: Your journal is almost full, please erase unnecessary entries. Great, this will allow us to drop the constantly repeating journal is full dialogue that get's in the way while trying to clean-up. Battery: Your battery is running out of charge! I'd also suggest we might want a notification for both connecting to power, and being disconnected from power. Gureito News: Hey kids! Online puppets festival this weekend, don't miss it! This one doesn't seem to have such a sane corner to appear from and seems to be a new messaging feature – in your mockup you placed it in the buddy notification corner (top right). I assume will come from a school server? This might tie in reasonably well with the idea of in activity bubble chat with other collaborating users (Eben was working on this idea some time back). I'll try and work this in to my next mockup, I think that top right buddy notification corner could be used to show simple in activity user chat, and Gureito News server notifications. Existing notifications already in Sugar: Journal/Shell: Send to friend notification. Pulses in top left corner and then adds a download icon to the top frame for user interaction. Activity: Private collaboration invitation. Pulses in the top left corner and then adds an activity icon to the top frame to allow user interaction. IRC: User mentioned your nickname. If IRC activity is not in focus, it will trigger a pulsing icon in the top right corner to indicate a user message. Not quite a buddy notification event in the Sugar collaboration layer sense, but more than close enough. Copy: Item copied to the clipboard. Pulses icon in bottom left corner and adds a clipping icon to the left frame edge for user interaction. I know it's a little chicken and egg, but do you have any specific errors you get in the field that notifications can help in a local resolution? I'll try and come up with some more possible cases for my next mockup, but that's just me trying to guess. I have some fair ideas for device notifications e.g. wireless connects/disconnects, gsm/3g errors, new storage media attached, storage media disconnected without being gracefully unmounted first etc. Regards, --Gary Abrazos, :) On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Martin Langhoff martin.langh...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:10 PM, David Farning dfarn...@gmail.com wrote: This patch has a place in Dextrose. Dextrose is looking at the question, How can we provide support staff the necessary information to effectively fix and/or report problems to a higher level of service and support? Let's not jump to conclusions. Can this be limited to... when the user _wants_ it? m -- martin.langh...@gmail.com mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.comwrote: On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 06:02:28PM -0300, Martin Abente wrote: Hello amigos, Recently I encountered many situations where a system-wide notification-messages system is required as a basis for many bug fixes or enhancements. [...] Currently, Sugar does not have a mechanism to communicate to users different kind of information about sugar itself. What about the notification system? The Log activity? The Journal Full warning? The Frame? There are a lot of communication mechanisms, but they dn't seem to do what you wnat: * The notification system only shows an icon floating, and if you want to show a message you have to implement a palette manually, not so DRY considering all the use cases. * Why the user should start an activity to know what is happening? Even if they do, do you think all that pile of text is really helpful? (for a developer, sure.. for a 7 years kid probably not, and if you want him to understand you would have to translate the log messages anyway). * The journal full warning is actually a problem to be solved, #630. * What about the frame?, currently it does nothing about this issue. (except for the floating pulsing icon) 1. Simple text messages display. Where do you think this would best be shown? Text is limited in the UI to avoid literacy and translation burdens. 2. Messages manager, this would help the user to see what messages have been delivered in the current session, so they could react to those events (for example, reporting bugs). Peraps Log could be changed to show this? Or the Frame (doesn't it already show the last few notifications?)? Again, why should we force users to start an activity to know what is happening. We need sugar to tell the users what is happening otherwise they will never guess it, that is exactly problem in the first place. I can't imagine a kid having to check the log activity every 10 minutes to see if the automatic backup has started recently. Anyway, if someone does not like the messages and wants just wants to read the log every N minutes they could be disable it :):):) Saludos Martin (tch) Abente Martin ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Sat, Nov 06, 2010 at 03:07:29AM -0300, Martin Abente wrote: On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 1:44 AM, Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.comwrote: On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 06:02:28PM -0300, Martin Abente wrote: Hello amigos, Recently I encountered many situations where a system-wide notification-messages system is required as a basis for many bug fixes or enhancements. [...] Currently, Sugar does not have a mechanism to communicate to users different kind of information about sugar itself. What about the notification system? The Log activity? The Journal Full warning? The Frame? There are a lot of communication mechanisms, but they dn't seem to do what you wnat: * The notification system only shows an icon floating, and if you want to show a message you have to implement a palette manually, not so DRY considering all the use cases. I'm not sure what you mean by DRY. The reason - I guess - for only the icon is because text requires translation and literacy (a point you make later). I prefer text (obviously, since we developers work with text as much as possible) but this requires a change to the HIG. We should think hard about why, and justify it. * Why the user should start an activity to know what is happening? I know, this is odd for developers/computer people. I personally don't like it (I really liked the quake terminal[1] approach), or having four activities to read e-books. But a) it's what the HIG[2] says, for some good reasons (it's not better to have text flashing by all the time -- have you seen how many exceptions are in shell.log!?); and b) it's not a new approach: OSX has the Console log viewer, Windows has the Event Viewer. Even if they do, do you think all that pile of text is really helpful? (for a developer, sure.. for a 7 years kid probably not, and if you want him to understand you would have to translate the log messages anyway). Wait, that's my argument you just stole :). If you're saying the error messages should be better, I don't think anyone would disagree. * The journal full warning is actually a problem to be solved, #630. Wow, I can't believe it's taken 20 months to fix it. I guess it's not that critical :(. * What about the frame?, currently it does nothing about this issue. (except for the floating pulsing icon) That's exactly what you wanted, but with icons instead of text: a list of the messages from Sugar, without starting an activity. Again, why should we force users to start an activity to know what is happening. To summarise: 1) Because the HIG tells us to, and nobody's proposing changing the HIG 2) Because Sugar UI should strive for simplicity, not tons of alerts that only a developer would understand 3) Because it's not clear what advantage over the existing notifications + Log activity you think will exist. I invite everyone to share their ideas on how this feature could work and look. Well, those were my ideas. When you have something more I'm sure we could have a more constructive discussion. We need sugar to tell the users what is happening otherwise they will never guess it, that is exactly problem in the first place. I can't imagine a kid having to check the log activity every 10 minutes to see if the automatic backup has started recently. I can't imagine any more than a few kids at each deployment (so, that's say 100 of 1.5 million laptops) ever wanting to see if the automatic backup has started recently. Anyway, if someone does not like the messages and wants just wants to read the log every N minutes they could be disable it :):):) In my experience, every time you show some information to the user that isn't actionable, they hate it. Saludos Martin (tch) Abente Martin Martin 1. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Quake_Terminal 2. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Human_Interface_Guidelines#Simplicity pgp5bs0E8D0vR.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
Hello amigos, Recently I encountered many situations where a system-wide notification-messages system is required as a basis for many bug fixes or enhancements. I am not talking about the messages that are related to an specific activity or its context, in many of those cases the current alert widgets are effective and proper methods. Currently, Sugar does not have a mechanism to communicate to users different kind of information about sugar itself. For example: 1. Important system events (automatic backup running, new update available, journal being almost full,etc) 2. Connectivity status changes or errors (connecting to a wifi network or 3G) 3. Critical sugar errors, right now most of those errors are invisible to users (this make testing process very difficult) 4. I am sure others can imagine more use cases. So I would like to list two extensions to the current notification system. Basically what we need is: 1. Simple text messages display. 2. Messages manager, this would help the user to see what messages have been delivered in the current session, so they could react to those events (for example, reporting bugs). I believe this feature could be a huge plus to dextrose and and sugar mainstream, therefore I invite everyone to share their ideas on how this feature could work and look. Saludos Martin (tch) Abente ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [DESIGN] Messages notification
On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 06:02:28PM -0300, Martin Abente wrote: Hello amigos, Recently I encountered many situations where a system-wide notification-messages system is required as a basis for many bug fixes or enhancements. [...] Currently, Sugar does not have a mechanism to communicate to users different kind of information about sugar itself. What about the notification system? The Log activity? The Journal Full warning? The Frame? There are a lot of communication mechanisms, but they dn't seem to do what you wnat: 1. Simple text messages display. Where do you think this would best be shown? Text is limited in the UI to avoid literacy and translation burdens. 2. Messages manager, this would help the user to see what messages have been delivered in the current session, so they could react to those events (for example, reporting bugs). Peraps Log could be changed to show this? Or the Frame (doesn't it already show the last few notifications?)? Saludos Martin (tch) Abente Martin pgpLccdLePGH3.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
