Re: High Noon

[MMB]

Richard:

> 
> >> Noon itself derives originally from "nine" or the ninth hour after
> sunrise (probaby 3pm :-) and not when it is apparently highest in the sky.

Richard Mallett asked:
> 
> So how and when did it get shifted from 3 pm to midday ?
> 

Klaus Eichholz wrote:

>My answer is "High noon" is correlated with the temporal hour "None" 
>used by the monks. But as the Benedict rules demanded to have no food 
>before this time it changed  more and more foward. The same thing 
>happened with "vesper".


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> ...My understanding is  that it derives from the term "haute nones", i.e. the 
> time during the period of nones when the sun is at its highest.  Since nones 
> is the early pm period, this makes it the same as our noon.
> 
> By contrast, the term "bas nones" would be the time when the sun is lowest 
> during nones, but luckily we have no equivalent modern term "Low Noon" as 
> that would really confuse us all!


I will try a summary. The term "nones" is Latin and the way that the
Romans divided up time is a subject in itself. Their way of reckoning
was inherited by the Christians and is still part of the way religious
name parts of their daily office or cycle of prayers. [As a child
educated by nuns, I recall that the convent bell rang at noon when we
then recited specific prayers. Of course the bells rang at twelve noon
precisely or 'high noon' as opposed to early or later].

The matter of how the Roman/Christian church reckoning of time became
what we use today is another subject but no mystery. I just do not know
where to direct you to look, Richard. Try a web search.

I am sure that when the reckoning of longitude came into the argument,
"high" noon became crucial and on this group we can all relate to that.

BTW I hope you have all had the opportunity to see the wonderful Charles
Sturridge film "Longitude" based on Sobel's book.

Maria Brandl
Mallacoota

37° 32' 60S
149° 45' 0E

-

Re: Message archive

[MMB]

Steve Lelievre wrote:
> 
> I don't know how to find old messages for this list. I used to look at an
> archive on Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sundial/messages/),
> but the last message there is from 2001/07/11.

Connect to


Click on "search" on the left

Type for instance "camera obscura" in the box "search for"

Select "Sundial" in the box "Select list"

Maria Brandl
Mallacoota

37° 32' 60S
149° 45' 0E

-

Re: Kitt Peak dial

[John Carmichael]

Mac:

You avoid design and surveying errors by using the Time & Shadow Method for
marking points, that's for sure. The biggest differences in point location
were those points that were located in potholes in the asphalt or where the
elevation changed.

John

John L. Carmichael Jr.
Sundial Sculptures
925 E. Foothills Dr.
Tucson Arizona 85718
USA

Tel: 520-696-1709
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website: 
- Original Message -
From: "Mac Oglesby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John Carmichael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Sundial list" 
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:03 PM
Subject: Kitt Peak dial


>
> John,
>
> I've seen your juxtaposition of the computed and observed hour points
> at the Kitt Peak demonstration sundial. Congratulations on achieving
> such excellent results. After weeks of preparation followed by days
> spent on site, it must be extremely gratifying to you and the others
> involved to see that the dial turned out better than anyone dared
> hope. Most of us design and build a sundial, then spot check its
> accuracy, hoping for the best. You've enjoyed the unusual opportunity
> of doing all of the checking essentially during a single day.
>
> Few of us would have had the resolve to see a project such as this
> through. You and your coworkers must be very proud of its outcome.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mac Oglesby
> -
>

-

Re: High Noon

[Richard Mallett]

>> Noon itself derives originally from "nine" or the ninth hour after
sunrise (probaby 3pm :-) and not when it is apparently highest in the sky.

 Well...   you asked, Mac!

 Maria Brandl Mallacoota <<

So how and when did it get shifted from 3 pm to midday ?

Richard.


  E-mail from: Richard Mallett, 27-Jun-2002
-

Re: Message archive

[Mac Oglesby]

archive on Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sundial/messages/),
but the last message there is from 2001/07/11.

Where else can I look?

Thanks in advance,

Steve
-





Steve, try www.astroarchive.com.

Mac

-

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Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:52:37 -0400
To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de
From: Mac Oglesby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Message archive
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Reply-To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de

>I don't know how to find old messages for this list. I used to look at an
>archive on Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sundial/messages/),
>but the last message there is from 2001/07/11.
>
>Where else can I look?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Steve
>-




Steve, try www.astroarchive.com.

Mac

-

Message archive

[Steve Lelievre]

I don't know how to find old messages for this list. I used to look at an
archive on Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sundial/messages/),
but the last message there is from 2001/07/11.

Where else can I look?

Thanks in advance,

Steve
-

Re: Equatorial monument in Brazil

[J.Tallman]

Josef, Art, and All,
 
Yes, this was the monument I saw on the TV show.  Thank you Josef for 
tracking down the link!  It was very interesting to be able to see it from 
the air, to really see its scale and consider its function as opposed to 
seeing it from plaza level for just a minute or so during a show 
about an unrelated subject.  I am always excited when interesting solar 
devices pop up unexpectedly on TV!
 
As you view the photo on the website, the football stadium I mentioned is 
behind the camera and to the right along the meridian, and the long street 
(it looks like it might actually be a very straight dirt road) extends to 
the left for quite some distance.  I have no idea which is East or 
West...which way would be best when laying out a monument like this do you 
suppose?  Would it be better to have the projected disc hit the visible 
line on the plaza in the morning or in the afternoon, or does it 
matter?  
 
Art, I would love to see it in action as well...it would be interesting to 
see just how well the projected disc actually shows up, 
and how dramatic the overall effect is.  It would certainly be a 
special place to spend an equinox!
 
Jim Tallman
Sr. Designer
FX Studios
513.829.1888
 

Re: High Noon

[john . davis]

Hi Mac et al,

Following the previous discussion on this topic, I added "High Noon" to the 
draft second edition of the BSS Glossary.

My understanding is  that it derives from the term "haute nones", i.e. the time 
during the period of nones when the sun is at its highest.  Since nones is the 
early pm period, this makes it the same as our noon.  

By contrast, the term "bas nones" would be the time when the sun is lowest 
during nones, but luckily we have no equivalent modern term "Low Noon" as that 
would really confuse us all!

Regards,

John
---

> Now and then I run across the phrase "High Noon." Can someone please 
> tell me what that means? I didn't find it in John Davis' excellent 
> glossary.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Mac Oglesby
> -



Dr J R Davis
Flowton Dials
N52d 08m: E1d 05m
-

Re: Equatorial monument in Brazil

[DrArthurCarlson]

That's a horse of a different color.  Then you have a geometrical image of the hole rather than a pinhole image of the sun.  The lack of "perfection" remains, but is no longer so apparent.  Now you might want to ask for how many days around the equinox the image stays "pretty much" on the line.  The deviation will be largest near dawn and dusk.  Let's use 7 AM and 5 PM as reference times and 65' as the height, so the horizontal projection distance is 65'/tan(15 deg) = 240'.  An offset of a quarter diameter -- 2' -- should be quite noticeable.  That corresponds to an angle of 2/240 = 8.3 mrad = 29 arc-min, nearly equal to the change of declination in one day.  It is also nearly equal to the angular diameter of the sun, so the image will be rather washed out at that distance.

All in all, you should be able to determine the exact day of the equinox.  That's close enough to perfection to leave me impressed.  I'd love to see it in action.

--Art