AW: Interesting Moon Dial
Hallo Mark, excellent! Thank you so much for the NASS info and your explanation. I will asap dig into that (and hope to find the Nass link). Thank you again and kind regards Siegfried Siegfried Netzband Hebelstr. 12 75233 Tiefenbronn Tel: 07234 2802 Fax: 07234 942909 Mob: 0151 53083636 / 0160 1531634 E-Mail: siegfried.netzb...@t-online.de Skype: siegfried75233<http://www.ferienhaus-frieseneck.de> -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: Re: Interesting Moon Dial Datum: 2023-07-11T22:05:33+0200 Von: "Mark Montgomery" An: "sundial@uni-koeln.de" , "siegfried.netzb...@t-online.de" Hello Siegfried, This is a wonderful dial. The construction of this moon dial is given by Jacques Ozanam in 1693 in his "Cursus Mathematicus: or A Complelat Course of the Mathematicks." Vol V Part III, "A Treatise of Gnomonicks", Problem XX. This work is available from the NASS website Shadow Catchers series. To read the dial you must know the age of the moon, or number of days since the last new moon. The lunar age is given next to the meridian (noon) line with 1-15 on the left side and 16-29 on the right side. These numbers apply to the lines perpendicular to the meridian. Find the line for the current lunar age and locate where the moon's shadow intersects this lunar age line. There will be a slanted or curved line close to the intersection. This is the local solar time line. Follow the curved line the the edge of the dial to read the local solar time from the moon's shadow. Hope this helps, Mark On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 06:17:46 AM CDT, siegfried.netzb...@t-online.de wrote: Dear sundial friends, came across an interesting moon dial which is quite different from all the other moon dials I did see up to now ( <https://kabinett.mapublishing-lab.uni-koeln.de/objekte/monduhr> ). However: I cannot read it, neither do I understand the way they calculated the lines on the dial to (may be) read off the time. The dial does not have the usual numeric list where you can determine the age of the moon with the aid of the size of the illuminated moon. The age of the moon, i.e. the angle between moon and sun is needed to determine time using the moon shadow on a sun dial at night. How do you read this dial and what is the basis (theory) for the lines to read of the time on this dial? Is there someone who can help? I would be very thankful for any help or advice. Thank You for Your help! Regards Siegfried Netzband [https://kabinett.mapublishing-lab.uni-koeln.de/fileadmin/_processed_/8/7/csm_KGS_BEL-Monduhr_11cafd00a9.jpeg] Siegfried Netzband Hebelstr. 12 75233 Tiefenbronn Tel: 07234 2802 Fax: 07234 942909 Mob: 0151 53083636 / 0160 1531634 E-Mail: siegfried.netzb...@t-online.de Skype: siegfried75233<http://www.ferienhaus-frieseneck.de> --- <https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial> --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting Moon Dial
Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang. This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message text is therefore in an attachment.--- Begin Message --- Hello Siegfried, This is a wonderful dial. The construction of this moon dial is given by Jacques Ozanam in 1693 in his "Cursus Mathematicus: or A Complelat Course of the Mathematicks." Vol V Part III, "A Treatise of Gnomonicks", Problem XX. This work is available from the NASS website Shadow Catchers series. To read the dial you must know the age of the moon, or number of days since the last new moon. The lunar age is given next to the meridian (noon) line with 1-15 on the left side and 16-29 on the right side. These numbers apply to the lines perpendicular to the meridian. Find the line for the current lunar age and locate where the moon's shadow intersects this lunar age line. There will be a slanted or curved line close to the intersection. This is the local solar time line. Follow the curved line the the edge of the dial to read the local solar time from the moon's shadow. Hope this helps,Mark On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 06:17:46 AM CDT, siegfried.netzb...@t-online.de wrote: Dear sundial friends, came across an interesting moon dial which is quite different from all the other moon dials I did see up to now (https://kabinett.mapublishing-lab.uni-koeln.de/objekte/monduhr). However: I cannot read it, neither do I understand the way they calculated the lines on the dial to (may be) read off the time. The dial does not have the usual numeric list where you can determine the age of the moon with the aid of the size of the illuminated moon. The age of the moon, i.e. the angle between moon and sun is needed to determine time using the moon shadow on a sun dial at night. How do you read this dial and what is the basis (theory) for the lines to read of the time on this dial? Is there someone who can help? I would be very thankful for any help or advice. Thank You for Your help! Regards Siegfried Netzband Siegfried Netzband Hebelstr. 12 75233 Tiefenbronn Tel: 07234 2802 Fax: 07234 942909 Mob: 0151 53083636 / 0160 1531634 E-Mail: siegfried.netzb...@t-online.de Skype: siegfried75233 www.ferienhaus-frieseneck.de --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- End Message --- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Interesting Moon Dial
Dear sundial friends, came across an interesting moon dial which is quite different from all the other moon dials I did see up to now ( <https://kabinett.mapublishing-lab.uni-koeln.de/objekte/monduhr> ). However: I cannot read it, neither do I understand the way they calculated the lines on the dial to (may be) read off the time. The dial does not have the usual numeric list where you can determine the age of the moon with the aid of the size of the illuminated moon. The age of the moon, i.e. the angle between moon and sun is needed to determine time using the moon shadow on a sun dial at night. How do you read this dial and what is the basis (theory) for the lines to read of the time on this dial? Is there someone who can help? I would be very thankful for any help or advice. Thank You for Your help! Regards Siegfried Netzband [https://kabinett.mapublishing-lab.uni-koeln.de/fileadmin/_processed_/8/7/csm_KGS_BEL-Monduhr_11cafd00a9.jpeg] Siegfried Netzband Hebelstr. 12 75233 Tiefenbronn Tel: 07234 2802 Fax: 07234 942909 Mob: 0151 53083636 / 0160 1531634 E-Mail: siegfried.netzb...@t-online.de Skype: siegfried75233<http://www.ferienhaus-frieseneck.de> --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Moon dial
Dear fellow shadow-chasers, Very many thanks for your most interesting and varied responses to my call for advice about a vertical east-facing moon dial project. What a useful listing this is! Suggestions have come in from many far-sprung places. Forgive me for not replying to them all individually, but they are all most welcome. Thank you, one and all. Ideas are beginning to take shape, and I'll try and post up a copy of the end result - some time next year, all being well. David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Moon dial.
Dear All, I have had a request to construct a moon dial for a vertical east-facing wall. This is new territory for me. Can anyone point me in the direction of sources/computer programmes that would give me guidance? David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Moon dial.
Hello David: My suggestion would be to make an typical vertical east sundial and add a simple moonlight time conversion chart with simple instructions. I often make horizontal dials with these charts carved into the dial face. Perhaps the most famous of these sundials with moonlight time conversion charts is the big blue wall dial at Queens College in Cambridge. http://www.quns.cam.ac.uk/queens/images/sundial.html Here is a copy of the moonlight conversion chart- Telling Time by Moon Shadows that appears in my Sundial Owner's Manual. (see attachment). Feel free to use it or modify it as needed for your project. Here is the text from the Manual that I wrote to explain how to read sundials by moon shadows. You may copy or use any of this if you want: MOONLIGHT READINGS If you look at the movement of the moon during the course of a night and its position in the sky, you will see that it pretty much follows the same path as the sun. We all have seen that on a full moon, the moon is opposite the sun near the horizon at sunrise or sunset. We see the full moon rise as the sun sets. Therefore, when there is a full moon, it will act like the sun at night, casting a shadow and showing sundial time. Since the moon's orbital plane is tilted 5 degrees with respect to the earth-sun plane, a good reading can be off by as much as 45 minutes. Every night, we see that the moon has moved east in the sky and that the phases change. The phase that the moon is in is proportional to its age. We can find out the exact age of the moon in almost any calendar or we can estimate its age by looking at the phase. The easterly distance which the moon moves away from the sun each night decreases the time shown on the sundial by about two minutes an hour, or 48 minutes a day. This means that on a full moon, no corrections will have to be made, but the night after a full moon, you must add 48 minutes to sundial time. If your moondial says it is 12 midnight, it is actually 12:48. The moon time on your sundial runs fast before a full moon, and slow after a full moon. In order to use the chart (Fig. 6) to make a moonlight reading, first determine the number of days the moon is from being full, using either a calendar or by looking at the moon phase. If the date is within two weeks before a full moon, the moon is fast and you subtract the correction. If the date is after the full moon, then moon time is slow and you must add the correction. Finally, for more accuracy, correct for the Equation of Time and use the EXACT age of the moon in the calculation. Interesting note: The sundial will show perfect time on the nights on or near a partial or total lunar eclipse because the earth, the sun and the moon are in perfect alignment! Note: You can't tell time by moonlight on analemmatic sundials. Good Question, John -Original Message- From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of David Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 11:30 PM To: Sundial list Subject: Moon dial. Dear All, I have had a request to construct a moon dial for a vertical east-facing wall. This is new territory for me. Can anyone point me in the direction of sources/computer programmes that would give me guidance? David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial MOONLIGHT SUNDIALTIME CONVERSION INSTRUCTIONS.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Moon dial.
Hi David, The starting point for making moondials must be Michael Lowne's classic article Moondials and the moon in BSS Bulletin 17(i) pp3-12. In it, amongst other things, he shows that the value of 48 minutes for the daily offset is in fact not the best number to choose. If you want something more exotic than just a sundial with a conversion table in the manner of the Queens' College dial, you could have one with 15 separate chapter rings, each one applicable for two days of the moon's age (symmetrical for waxing and waning). This is what the likes of Henry Wynne did on some of his very large horizontals. There is also a reasonably well-known one in slate, I think. I've never seen it done on a vertical east dial - could be an interesting pattern. The biggest problem with these schemes is knowing the age of the moon: unless the user looks it up in an almanac, online or with an app, you need to have little diagrams to match to the moon's appearance. Regards, John - Dr J Davis Flowton Dials http://www.flowton-dials.co.uk/ BSS Editor http://www.sundialsoc.org.uk/bulletin.php From: David da...@davidbrownsundials.com To: Sundial list sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, 14 May 2014, 7:29 Subject: Moon dial. Dear All, I have had a request to construct a moon dial for a vertical east-facing wall. This is new territory for me. Can anyone point me in the direction of sources/computer programmes that would give me guidance? David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Moon dial.
This is a graphical representation of the tabular data given by John. I apologize for the appearance. It was included in one of my old drawings and I blew it up so you could see it at all. I have no idea where I came across it. The horizontal scale is days before and after the full moon; the slope is the correction to be applied. It would be nice to find a better illustration of the concept Bob -Original Message- From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of David Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 2:30 AM To: Sundial list Subject: Moon dial. Dear All, I have had a request to construct a moon dial for a vertical east-facing wall. This is new territory for me. Can anyone point me in the direction of sources/computer programmes that would give me guidance? David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Moon dial.
Hello, I have seen interesting graphical conversion diagram in Genk (Belgium). Some photos here - http://www.saulespulkstenis.lv/genk-bifilar/ If you look closer at the last photo, you can see that with a little practice reading the time from moonlight shadow could be really easy - just select the appropriate circle corresponding to the Lunar phase (Arabic numerals) and then look for the closest intersection with those off-set circle lines (Roman numbers show the time). Best, Martins -- Martins Gills 2014-05-14 21:28 GMT+03:00 Robert Terwilliger b...@twigsdigs.com: This is a graphical representation of the tabular data given by John. I apologize for the appearance. It was included in one of my old drawings and I blew it up so you could see it at all. I have no idea where I came across it. The horizontal scale is days before and after the full moon; the slope is the correction to be applied. It would be nice to find a better illustration of the concept Bob -Original Message- From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of David Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 2:30 AM To: Sundial list Subject: Moon dial. Dear All, I have had a request to construct a moon dial for a vertical east-facing wall. This is new territory for me. Can anyone point me in the direction of sources/computer programmes that would give me guidance? David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Moon dial.
Hello David, Girolamo Fantoni published Moondials in the BSS Bulletin 92-1. He describes a new design based on ideas by Ozanam (1699) using 15 lines for the lunar phases each day of the month. Rafael Soler has incorporated moondials using this 15 line technique as well as correction charts technique on some of his multifaceted sundials dials in Mallorca. The best example is the 1 m cube in the Soller Botanical Garden. Here are links to a couple of pictures. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ewOmDBn4RiFiCJDsANAtLSVg4eN4RQqVmec5g1exKas?feat=directlink https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FLHiObHT9gJ7b0wbTU4K5yVg4eN4RQqVmec5g1exKas?feat=directlink His book Diseno Y Construccion de Relojes de Solar y de Luna describes the techniques on pages 405 to 413. How is your Spanish? At the NASS conference in 2012 I gave a presentation on Sundials in Mallorca showing many examples of Rafael's remarkable designs. The cube dial is described on slides 52 to 56. I have uploaded in to a personal website. This link will start the download of the 28 MB PowerPoint file. http://www3.telus.net/public/rtbailey/BSS%20Tours/Sundials%20in%20Mallorca.ppt Enjoy, Roger Bailey Walking Shadow Designs ps. I am currently working on the concept of an analemmatic moondial. This Lunacy will be presented at the NASS conference this August. -- From: David da...@davidbrownsundials.com Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2014 11:29 PM To: Sundial list sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Moon dial. Dear All, I have had a request to construct a moon dial for a vertical east-facing wall. This is new territory for me. Can anyone point me in the direction of sources/computer programmes that would give me guidance? David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4577 / Virus Database: 3950/7493 - Release Date: 05/14/14 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4577 / Virus Database: 3950/7493 - Release Date: 05/14/14 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Aluna moon dial
Does anybody know something about this strange dial?www.alunatime.org LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.http://es.voice.yahoo.com--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
moon dial
Greetings fellow dialists, Thanks Richard Mallett and all for clarifications regarding the moon landings and the strange case of the flag that fluttered. I raise my right hand and declare that I have always believed that (brave) men landed on the moon in 1969. Honest! However, nobody really enlightened me about the possibility of a sundial on the moon. I am poised breathlessly for replies. By the way, I am told by a newsgroup correspondent that my home position, see below, is in the sea. Hardly surprising, seeing my email address. In fact it is shorthand for the town of North Shields, England, which is actually a mile inland. But there is zooplankton in the estuary there. So that's OK. Frank, 55N 1 W (actually 55 01'N 1 27'W) -- Frank Evans
Re: moon dial
Hi, Frank! You're right, I noticed no-one mentioned the sundial possibilities. The biggest problem is that the Moon rotates so slowly. You will have approximately equal days and nights of 14+ Earth days each! The equation of time becomes extremely more complicated as well, as the Earth-Moon system advances almost 1/12 of a year, for each lunar day-night cycle. Telling time by an Earthdial, like our attempts at a Moondial, would not be possible, as the Earth hangs, essentially unmoving, at the same location in the lunar sky, all the time. Perhaps the best way would be analogous to our reading the date by moon phases: Look at Earth, and estimate where the terminator is; that would indicate the time zone where it is either 0600 or 1800, local solar time... Dave 37.3 N 121.9 W On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Frank Evans wrote: Greetings fellow dialists, Thanks Richard Mallett and all for clarifications regarding the moon landings and the strange case of the flag that fluttered. I raise my right hand and declare that I have always believed that (brave) men landed on the moon in 1969. Honest! However, nobody really enlightened me about the possibility of a sundial on the moon. I am poised breathlessly for replies. By the way, I am told by a newsgroup correspondent that my home position, see below, is in the sea. Hardly surprising, seeing my email address. In fact it is shorthand for the town of North Shields, England, which is actually a mile inland. But there is zooplankton in the estuary there. So that's OK. Frank, 55N 1 W (actually 55 01'N 1 27'W) -- Frank Evans
Re: moon dial
Hi Frank, In Jahreschrift 2000 der Deutsche Gesellschaft für Chronometrie, Band 39, Germany, is an article about dials on the moon, written by Heinz Sigmund. I hope you can read German. But isn't the earth the most beautiful sundial to look at if you are on the moon? Best wishes, Fer. Fer J. de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.iae.nl/users/ferdv/ Eindhoven, Netherlands lat. 51:30 N long. 5:30 E - Original Message - From: Frank Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 8:38 PM Subject: moon dial Greetings fellow dialists, Thanks Richard Mallett and all for clarifications regarding the moon landings and the strange case of the flag that fluttered. I raise my right hand and declare that I have always believed that (brave) men landed on the moon in 1969. Honest! However, nobody really enlightened me about the possibility of a sundial on the moon. I am poised breathlessly for replies. By the way, I am told by a newsgroup correspondent that my home position, see below, is in the sea. Hardly surprising, seeing my email address. In fact it is shorthand for the town of North Shields, England, which is actually a mile inland. But there is zooplankton in the estuary there. So that's OK. Frank, 55N 1 W (actually 55 01'N 1 27'W) -- Frank Evans
Re: moon dial
Fer J. de Vries wrote: But isn't the earth the most beautiful sundial to look at if you are on the moon? Indeed. Moreover, I often like to point out that the Earth itself has the distinction of being the world's largest terrella! ;-) ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Mark Gingrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] San Leandro, California
