RE: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
I have found the discussion of AD/BC, and CE/BCE a bit off-center. The argument of AD/BC goes that it is representative of the birth of Christ as the marker for our year count. Dionysius, under direction of the Pontiff set the year one as that of Christ's birth. But several things conspire to put Dionysius marker some years off. Dionysius missed the reign of Emperor Quirenies, resulting in a four year error and the potential for Christ's birth in 4 BC. Further, St. Luke notes His birth took place during the census, which started in 7 BC. And the star in the east, a possible an asterism of Jupiter and Saturn in the constellation of Pisces, occurred in 3 BC. If Christ's death can be reckoned to be Friday April 7 29 CE this strengthens the best guess of birth during the spring of 4 BCE. If we take the errors and uncertainties in stride then it matters little whether we call our year count Common Era or Anno Domini. Likewise BC or Before Common Era really doesn't matter... it is the familiarity of what you grew up with. CE and BCE are technically more accurate since they take the year count as is without assigning an event at year one. And if you like to count tree rings or do carbon or other isotope ratios dating for a living, then Before Present (BP) makes a more convenient marker. Happy New Year ... but don't ask me which calendar system Bob --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Upps you are right, of course!!! HAPPY SOLSTICES TO ALL, Roser 2011/12/24 R Wall ML emails maill...@virginbroadband.com.au: Hi Roser, You forget that some of us live in the southern hemisphere. Roderick Wall. -Original Message- From: Roser Raluy Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 10:35 PM To: Frank King Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting I wish you all a happy winter solstice ( in that we agree, don't we?) full of sunshine for our minds, bodies and sundials. Roser Raluy 42º13'31''N 2º51'43''E 2011/12/24 Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk: Dear John, I like your story about the times quoted by the Darwin control tower. In some of my introductory talks about sundials I mention Unequal Hours, Babylonian Hours, Italian Hours and so on. Just when the audience thinks this is offering more choice than they can cope with, I explain that things are little better when you use clock time. Your story illustrates this nicely AND also illustrates the use of different levels of precision. I may plagiarise this next time I give such a talk! All the best Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Dear Mac, You say: May I ask a stupid question? They are often the best. Remember the recent thread started by someone who thought it wrong to imagine that the sun moved across the sky? [I didn't respond to that one, but insisting that the sun stays in the same place would mean you couldn't say Oh, what a beautiful sunset. You would have to say Oh, look at that beautiful horizon-rise instead!] What was wrong with AD and BC? There are strange people who seem to suffer an attack of the vapours when they come across anything hinting at religion. This pretty much rules out studying a good many subjects. You can't study architecture, astronomy and certainly sundials for very long without coming across Egyptian gods, Greek gods, Roman gods, Christian practices, Muslim practices and all the rest. In the case of AD there is the additional problem that it stands for two Latin words and other strange people think that using a dead language isn't user-friendly. They won't get far studying the history of science either! Happily, Latin isn't quite dead. I am one of 40 or so people in my neck of the woods who is actually paid to declaim Latin in public (loudly and with enthusiasm!). Enjoy your 2011 Christmas. Now just what was it that was going on 2011 years ago? Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Dear John, I like your story about the times quoted by the Darwin control tower. In some of my introductory talks about sundials I mention Unequal Hours, Babylonian Hours, Italian Hours and so on. Just when the audience thinks this is offering more choice than they can cope with, I explain that things are little better when you use clock time. Your story illustrates this nicely AND also illustrates the use of different levels of precision. I may plagiarise this next time I give such a talk! All the best Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Dear all, I enjoy calendar stories, I did too took a while to know BP meant Before Present, I actually thought it was a typographic fault in the guides we use in the museum. BP is used among the scientific community to avoid, among other things, the christian connotation. Muslims, Jews and Chinese go their own way, and probably others too. But this thing of CE/BCE seems pointless to me, trying to get rid of the christian connotation by hiding the word but not the concept. I don't mind variety, as long as we are able to translate, as we do with language. BC and AC seems the most clear to me. A little bit of English is needed though. AD, the Anno Domini seems a bit too overloaded, good for the Latin enthusiasts, I'm more on the Greek side of the road. I wish you all a happy winter solstice ( in that we agree, don't we?) full of sunshine for our minds, bodies and sundials. Roser Raluy 42º13'31''N 2º51'43''E 2011/12/24 Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk: Dear John, I like your story about the times quoted by the Darwin control tower. In some of my introductory talks about sundials I mention Unequal Hours, Babylonian Hours, Italian Hours and so on. Just when the audience thinks this is offering more choice than they can cope with, I explain that things are little better when you use clock time. Your story illustrates this nicely AND also illustrates the use of different levels of precision. I may plagiarise this next time I give such a talk! All the best Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Dear Frank, in my humble opinion, you hit the nail on the head. Merry Christmas to all (or shouldn't I write that any longer?) Helmut Sonderegger Am 24.12.2011 10:40, schrieb Frank King: Dear Mac, You say: May I ask a stupid question? They are often the best. Remember the recent thread started by someone who thought it wrong to imagine that the sun moved across the sky? [I didn't respond to that one, but insisting that the sun stays in the same place would mean you couldn't say Oh, what a beautiful sunset. You would have to say Oh, look at that beautiful horizon-rise instead!] What was wrong with AD and BC? There are strange people who seem to suffer an attack of the vapours when they come across anything hinting at religion. This pretty much rules out studying a good many subjects. You can't study architecture, astronomy and certainly sundials for very long without coming across Egyptian gods, Greek gods, Roman gods, Christian practices, Muslim practices and all the rest. In the case of AD there is the additional problem that it stands for two Latin words and other strange people think that using a dead language isn't user-friendly. They won't get far studying the history of science either! Happily, Latin isn't quite dead. I am one of 40 or so people in my neck of the woods who is actually paid to declaim Latin in public (loudly and with enthusiasm!). Enjoy your 2011 Christmas. Now just what was it that was going on 2011 years ago? Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Frank, you ask, Now just what was it that was going on 2011 years ago? Isn't the correct answer, Not a whole lot! Jesus was only 7 years old... Rejoice in the return of the Sun! Blessed be... Dave -Original Message- From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Frank King Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 1:41 AM To: Mac Oglesby Cc: sund...@rrz.uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting Dear Mac, You say: May I ask a stupid question? They are often the best. Remember the recent thread started by someone who thought it wrong to imagine that the sun moved across the sky? [I didn't respond to that one, but insisting that the sun stays in the same place would mean you couldn't say Oh, what a beautiful sunset. You would have to say Oh, look at that beautiful horizon-rise instead!] What was wrong with AD and BC? There are strange people who seem to suffer an attack of the vapours when they come across anything hinting at religion. This pretty much rules out studying a good many subjects. You can't study architecture, astronomy and certainly sundials for very long without coming across Egyptian gods, Greek gods, Roman gods, Christian practices, Muslim practices and all the rest. In the case of AD there is the additional problem that it stands for two Latin words and other strange people think that using a dead language isn't user-friendly. They won't get far studying the history of science either! Happily, Latin isn't quite dead. I am one of 40 or so people in my neck of the woods who is actually paid to declaim Latin in public (loudly and with enthusiasm!). Enjoy your 2011 Christmas. Now just what was it that was going on 2011 years ago? Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Dear Dave, Hmmm. Hard to comment on this... ... Jesus was only 7 years old... Given the absence of zero, 2011 years ago takes us to 1BC. There is a little uncertainty but current best estimates of the date of birth seem to fall in the range 6BC to 4BC which would make the age between 3 and 5 years. I guess we agree that not a whole lot was going on! There is a well-known sundial near where I am sitting which has an inscription that uses A.S. instead of A.D. Brookes and Stanier say that this stands for Anno Salvationis but I feel that Anno Salutis is also a candidate. Both mean In the Year of Salvation and I wonder whether using A.S. might cause less distress to those who need smelling salts when they read A.D.? No doubt someone can tell me how common it is to see A.S. on sundials? We can be fairly sure that you don't often see B.C. on sundials, at least not as the date of manufacture :-) Felix Nativitas Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Yeah, my head hurts when I try to visualize an integer line without zero, BC (before coffee), so I was probably off a year, anyway. I used the 7 BC date, as that was the most recent I had heard. That was from Brent Walters, professor of religion at San Jose State University, but he was far from conclusive on it. He just did a fun radio program that was basically The truth about Christmas and Hanukah! Dave -Original Message- From: Frank King [mailto:frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk] Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 10:15 AM To: Dave Bell Cc: 'Frank King'; sund...@rrz.uni-koeln.de; frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting Dear Dave, Hmmm. Hard to comment on this... ... Jesus was only 7 years old... Given the absence of zero, 2011 years ago takes us to 1BC. There is a little uncertainty but current best estimates of the date of birth seem to fall in the range 6BC to 4BC which would make the age between 3 and 5 years. I guess we agree that not a whole lot was going on! There is a well-known sundial near where I am sitting which has an inscription that uses A.S. instead of A.D. Brookes and Stanier say that this stands for Anno Salvationis but I feel that Anno Salutis is also a candidate. Both mean In the Year of Salvation and I wonder whether using A.S. might cause less distress to those who need smelling salts when they read A.D.? No doubt someone can tell me how common it is to see A.S. on sundials? We can be fairly sure that you don't often see B.C. on sundials, at least not as the date of manufacture :-) Felix Nativitas Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Hi Roser, You forget that some of us live in the southern hemisphere. Roderick Wall. -Original Message- From: Roser Raluy Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 10:35 PM To: Frank King Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting I wish you all a happy winter solstice ( in that we agree, don't we?) full of sunshine for our minds, bodies and sundials. Roser Raluy 42º13'31''N 2º51'43''E 2011/12/24 Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk: Dear John, I like your story about the times quoted by the Darwin control tower. In some of my introductory talks about sundials I mention Unequal Hours, Babylonian Hours, Italian Hours and so on. Just when the audience thinks this is offering more choice than they can cope with, I explain that things are little better when you use clock time. Your story illustrates this nicely AND also illustrates the use of different levels of precision. I may plagiarise this next time I give such a talk! All the best Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Dear Rob, No one seems to have responded to your message of 1 December in which you drew attention to: http://futureofutc.org/preprints Apart from the nice picture of the Prague clock this is rather heavy going! For lighter reading, I turned to the comments that were sent in from round the world: http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/futureofutc/preprints/18_AAS_11-668_Epilogue.pdf Numerous contributors familiar to readers of this mailing list sent in comments including: Tony Finch Rob Seaman Patrick Powers Frank King John Davis Christopher Daniel The summary showed that there were about 450 contributors of whom 76% were in favour of the status quo [keeping the leap second]. Two comments especially appealed to me: John Davis said: I (or my descendants) do not wish to have noon drift into the middle of the night. An anonymous contributor said: If you want a timescale with a constant offset from TAI, why not just use TAI? Many others said much the same less succinctly! The Royal Institute of Navigation seem to have been allowed the last words and say: In summary, making this change to UTC has a rather esoteric rationale, limited benefits and potentially significant costs. Unfortunately, the matter remains unresolved. Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Good morning Frank, In the spirit of Christmas, I offer the following apocryphal story from Australia. A British Airways pilot approaching Darwin requested a time check from the control tower and was informed that at the third stroke, the time will be twenty thirty and thirty seconds Zulu ... beep beep beep A pilot from a local airline made a similar request and was told six o'clock in the morning, welcome to Darwin A private pilot from a remote cattle station also asked, and got the reply it's Saturday, mate, what are you doing out of bed so early?. For most of us, near enough is good enough. More seriously, it seems that a few pedants are driving this, and the Royal Institute of Navigation seems to have the right idea. Happy Christmas to all who observe it, and happy holidays to others. I'm still not sure how happy the holiday will be here. It's been rain, rain, and more rain for the last few days in Sydney, and more forecast. So much for my planned camping trip. Oh well. BTW, and linking time / date and Christmas: in his annual Christmas broadcast, the Archbishop of Sydney has made an impassioned plea for retention of BC / AD, and to eschew the secular adoption of BCE / CE. I wonder who will win this particular ideological battle? Cheers, John John Pickard john.pick...@bigpond.com - Original Message - From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk To: Rob Seaman sea...@noao.edu Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting Dear Rob, No one seems to have responded to your message of 1 December in which you drew attention to: http://futureofutc.org/preprints Apart from the nice picture of the Prague clock this is rather heavy going! For lighter reading, I turned to the comments that were sent in from round the world: http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/futureofutc/preprints/18_AAS_11-668_Epilogue.pdf Numerous contributors familiar to readers of this mailing list sent in comments including: Tony Finch Rob Seaman Patrick Powers Frank King John Davis Christopher Daniel The summary showed that there were about 450 contributors of whom 76% were in favour of the status quo [keeping the leap second]. Two comments especially appealed to me: John Davis said: I (or my descendants) do not wish to have noon drift into the middle of the night. An anonymous contributor said: If you want a timescale with a constant offset from TAI, why not just use TAI? Many others said much the same less succinctly! The Royal Institute of Navigation seem to have been allowed the last words and say: In summary, making this change to UTC has a rather esoteric rationale, limited benefits and potentially significant costs. Unfortunately, the matter remains unresolved. Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
the Archbishop of Sydney has made an impassioned plea for retention of BC / AD, and to eschew the secular adoption of BCE / CE. I wonder who will win this particular ideological battle? He’s absolutely right of course and I hope the status quo is retained. The terms CE/BCE may be understood in the US and possibly Canada too but the ‘so called secular’ approach simply raises confusion in the rest of the world. I was a referee for the Institute of Physics for over 30 years on a specific topic of mass spectrometry instrumentation. At that time that encompassed those instruments used for carbon dating and I well recall a 2000 year discrepancy that was disclosed in one paper that arose from confusion between stating dates as Before the Current Era and Before the Common Era. Let the world retain what is understood. There is no need for change.- especially change that requires the entire world to be taught it consequences. Patrick From: John Pickard Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 8:38 PM To: Frank King Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting Good morning Frank, In the spirit of Christmas, I offer the following apocryphal story from Australia. A British Airways pilot approaching Darwin requested a time check from the control tower and was informed that at the third stroke, the time will be twenty thirty and thirty seconds Zulu ... beep beep beep A pilot from a local airline made a similar request and was told six o'clock in the morning, welcome to Darwin A private pilot from a remote cattle station also asked, and got the reply it's Saturday, mate, what are you doing out of bed so early?. For most of us, near enough is good enough. More seriously, it seems that a few pedants are driving this, and the Royal Institute of Navigation seems to have the right idea. Happy Christmas to all who observe it, and happy holidays to others. I'm still not sure how happy the holiday will be here. It's been rain, rain, and more rain for the last few days in Sydney, and more forecast. So much for my planned camping trip. Oh well. BTW, and linking time / date and Christmas: in his annual Christmas broadcast, the Archbishop of Sydney has made an impassioned plea for retention of BC / AD, and to eschew the secular adoption of BCE / CE. I wonder who will win this particular ideological battle? Cheers, John John Pickard john.pick...@bigpond.com - Original Message - From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk To: Rob Seaman sea...@noao.edu Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting Dear Rob, No one seems to have responded to your message of 1 December in which you drew attention to: http://futureofutc.org/preprints Apart from the nice picture of the Prague clock this is rather heavy going! For lighter reading, I turned to the comments that were sent in from round the world: http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/futureofutc/preprints/18_AAS_11-668_Epilogue.pdf Numerous contributors familiar to readers of this mailing list sent in comments including: Tony Finch Rob Seaman Patrick Powers Frank King John Davis Christopher Daniel The summary showed that there were about 450 contributors of whom 76% were in favour of the status quo [keeping the leap second]. Two comments especially appealed to me: John Davis said: I (or my descendants) do not wish to have noon drift into the middle of the night. An anonymous contributor said: If you want a timescale with a constant offset from TAI, why not just use TAI? Many others said much the same less succinctly! The Royal Institute of Navigation seem to have been allowed the last words and say: In summary, making this change to UTC has a rather esoteric rationale, limited benefits and potentially significant costs. Unfortunately, the matter remains unresolved. Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Silly me, I always thought BC meant Before Christ and AD meant Anno Domini (The Year of Our Lord). And I thought BCE meant Before Christian Era and CE meant Christian Era. Which just goes to show the I (and likely lots of other) have little chance of remembering what CE or BCE mean. May I ask a stupid question? What was wrong with AD and BC? Happy Holidays, Mac P.S. Am I correct to think there is no Year Zero in any event? the Archbishop of Sydney has made an impassioned plea for retention of BC / AD, and to eschew the secular adoption of BCE / CE. I wonder who will win this particular ideological battle? He's absolutely right of course and I hope the status quo is retained. The terms CE/BCE may be understood in the US and possibly Canada too but the 'so called secular' approach simply raises confusion in the rest of the world. I was a referee for the Institute of Physics for over 30 years on a specific topic of mass spectrometry instrumentation. At that time that encompassed those instruments used for carbon dating and I well recall a 2000 year discrepancy that was disclosed in one paper that arose from confusion between stating dates as Before the Current Era and Before the Common Era. Let the world retain what is understood. There is no need for change.- especially change that requires the entire world to be taught it consequences. Patrick From: mailto:john.pick...@bigpond.comJohn Pickard Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 8:38 PM To: mailto:frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.ukFrank King Cc: mailto:sundial@uni-koeln.desundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting Good morning Frank, In the spirit of Christmas, I offer the following apocryphal story from Australia. A British Airways pilot approaching Darwin requested a time check from the control tower and was informed that at the third stroke, the time will be twenty thirty and thirty seconds Zulu ... beep beep beep A pilot from a local airline made a similar request and was told six o'clock in the morning, welcome to Darwin A private pilot from a remote cattle station also asked, and got the reply it's Saturday, mate, what are you doing out of bed so early?. For most of us, near enough is good enough. More seriously, it seems that a few pedants are driving this, and the Royal Institute of Navigation seems to have the right idea. Happy Christmas to all who observe it, and happy holidays to others. I'm still not sure how happy the holiday will be here. It's been rain, rain, and more rain for the last few days in Sydney, and more forecast. So much for my planned camping trip. Oh well. BTW, and linking time / date and Christmas: in his annual Christmas broadcast, the Archbishop of Sydney has made an impassioned plea for retention of BC / AD, and to eschew the secular adoption of BCE / CE. I wonder who will win this particular ideological battle? Cheers, John John Pickard john.pick...@bigpond.com - Original Message - From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk To: Rob Seaman sea...@noao.edu Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting Dear Rob, No one seems to have responded to your message of 1 December in which you drew attention to: http://futureofutc.org/preprints Apart from the nice picture of the Prague clock this is rather heavy going! For lighter reading, I turned to the comments that were sent in from round the world: http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/futureofutc/preprints/18_AAS_11-668_Epilogue.pdf Numerous contributors familiar to readers of this mailing list sent in comments including: Tony Finch Rob Seaman Patrick Powers Frank King John Davis Christopher Daniel The summary showed that there were about 450 contributors of whom 76% were in favour of the status quo [keeping the leap second]. Two comments especially appealed to me: John Davis said: I (or my descendants) do not wish to have noon drift into the middle of the night. An anonymous contributor said: If you want a timescale with a constant offset from TAI, why not just use TAI? Many others said much the same less succinctly! The Royal Institute of Navigation seem to have been allowed the last words and say: In summary, making this change to UTC has a rather esoteric rationale, limited benefits and potentially significant costs. Unfortunately, the matter remains unresolved. Frank King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https
Re: Proceedings for Future of UTC meeting
Mac, Am I correct to think there is no Year Zero in any event? You are correct. The Romans had no zero as it had not yet been invented, hence the first hour, on the third day, etc.. Mike Shaw 53º 22'N 03º02'W www.wiz.to/sundials - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4698 - Release Date: 12/23/11 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
