Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[JeffM]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
>Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing
>is an empty promise.
>
Describe more fully "incapable of testing".

>If the developers want to know what end users think,
>they need to ask them before the code is carved in stone.
>
This overlooks the "scratching an itch" nature
of Open Source coding/coders.
So, obviously, non-coder FOSS users are subject to
the whims of those who freely contribute their time/skills.
Life is a bitch, then you die.
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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[Paul B. Gallagher]

NoOp wrote:


On 07/18/2011 05:28 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

...

If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still
don't know about it.


Succinctly stated! :)

We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is
offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave.


I disagree. Users are *always* invited to participate in pre-release&
nightly testing, submit code, assist in providing suggestion, etc., etc.
You'll not find that (or at least not as openly) in other products that
offer the same as SeaMonkey.


Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty 
promise. Yes, SeaMonkey users tend more toward the power user end of the 
spectrum, and many of them are very knowledgeable and capable. But I'd 
still bet a substantial sum of money that the vast majority -- say over 
85% -- are just end users. They're familiar with the product, know how 
to use it well, but are not now and never will be a source of code or 
design features. So if we shut them out by saying "when we want your 
opinion, we'll give it to you," we're just shooting ourselves in the 
foot. (Not that I think the Mozilla organization intends that.)


The point of this discussion is that the vast majority of SeaMonkey 
users (other than that very small élite who do contribute) find out 
about feature changes far too late in the process to provide any useful 
input. If the developers want to know what end users think, they need to 
ask them before the code is carved in stone. "Do you use XXX 
always/sometimes/never"? "Would you like to be able to export YYY to ZZZ 
format?" "If we did away with the Forms Manager, would you care?" And so 
forth. As things stand now, the developers have to guess what end users 
do and think based on their own personal experience with the product and 
feedback from that very small élite. Mostly they make good choices, but 
it's a chancy proposition.



We can all B&*%h&  moan, but the fact remains that SeaMonkey is an
opensource *all volunteer* project. If you can't develop, then at least
test pre/nightly release. Provide feedback on the
mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey list
or ask here. While I may have not agreed with all of the
responses/feedback/comments I've received from some developers, I've
*always* found the kind folks that support&  work on SM in their own
free time responsive&  helpful. For that I definitely thank them for
both the fish and their kind work.


Please don't misunderstand. Some people are bitchy by nature, but most 
of the rest of us bitch and moan only when we have a good reason. I was 
very unhappy with what they did to the Forms Manager a few versions 
back, and I said so (after the fact, of course!), but I stuck around 
because I still think SM is the best thing since sliced bread, and on 
balance I think the developers mean well and work hard to produce an 
even better product. I don't mean to accuse the developers of bad faith 
or bad intentions, but any organization has systematic biases and 
loopholes that allow or even encourage certain characteristic mistakes. 
And inviting end users to shut up or write code is such a shortcoming. 
There must be a third way that we can contribute, and that's in the 
usability area. Remember that all the developers' hard work is pointless 
if they make an end product usable only by geeks. You may think it's 
cake to hack an rdf or css file, but most of your users don't, any more 
than they want to tune up their cars the old-fashioned way with a strobe 
light.



If you'd like to help:


Here's a thought; change to Thunderbird + Firefox (or Opera or some
other mailclient/browser) for awhile. Don't use SeaMonkey. I've actually
tried this on multiple occasions & I've *always* come back to
SeaMonkey. I also tried this on multiple customers/friends/relatives; I
installed Opera/Firefox/Zimbra Desktop/Chrome/Thunderbird/Safari, etc.,
and they *all* came back to SeaMonkey.

Bottom line is that 'you' the user can indeed influence SeaMonkey. No it
may not happen in 2.2.x, and you may get "well we can't due to the
Firefox code), but in the end the user *can* influence&  help SeaMonkey
by participating in the project; report bugs, test pre-releases,
participate on the dev list, write documentation, etc., etc.
I can say that I've not done much (except test pre-releases) lately
due to time issues, but I do think that every little bit helps.




Thanks for the invitations. As always, I'll do what I can when I can. I 
do want the SeaMonkey project to succeed, and a big part of my 
definition of success is that the program should become popular.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[Paul B. Gallagher]

WLS wrote:


Some good sources of information on what is going on with releases.

Planet Mozilla



Mozilla Wiki



MozillaZine Forums in the Build sections.




Thanks. More than I can read at one sitting, but looks promising.

--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[PhillipJones]

Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:25:47 -0700, /NoOp/:

On 07/18/2011 05:28 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

...

If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still
don't know about it.


Succintly stated! :)

We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is
offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave.


I disagree. Users are *always* invited to participate in pre-release &
nightly testing, submit code, assist in providing suggestion, etc., etc.
You'll not find that (or at least not as openly) in other products that
offer the same a SeaMonkey.
[...]


And I fully agree with NoOp (including the rest of his reply), and I'm a
SeaMonkey user.



I tested SeaMonkey and Mozilla, and even Communicator Nighlies sent in 
the bug reports and made suggestions. After those years I decided I was 
wasting my time and effort. as The OP said users don't influence 
developers. All we can do as users is use the product and when it no 
longer works as it should decide to live with it or Move on. 
Unfortunately there really anything out there good enough to move on to. 
SO other like me I will choose to stay with an older version (the 2.0.x 
series). The last version that doesn't Break  extensions and plugins.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:25:47 -0700, /NoOp/:

On 07/18/2011 05:28 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

...

If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still
don't know about it.


Succintly stated! :)

We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is
offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave.


I disagree. Users are *always* invited to participate in pre-release &
nightly testing, submit code, assist in providing suggestion, etc., etc.
You'll not find that (or at least not as openly) in other products that
offer the same a SeaMonkey.
[...]


And I fully agree with NoOp (including the rest of his reply), and 
I'm a SeaMonkey user.


--
Stanimir
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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[NoOp]

On 07/18/2011 05:28 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:
> Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
...
>> If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still
>> don't know about it.
>>
> 
> Succintly stated! :)
> 
> We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is
> offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave.
> 

I disagree. Users are *always* invited to participate in pre-release &
nightly testing, submit code, assist in providing suggestion, etc., etc.
You'll not find that (or at least not as openly) in other products that
offer the same a SeaMonkey.

We can all B&*%h & moan, but the fact remains that SeaMonkey is an
opensource *all volunteer* project. If you can't develop, then at least
test pre/nightly release. Provide feedback on the
mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey list
or ask here. While I may have not agreed with all of the
responses/feedback/comments I've received from some developers, I've
*always* found the kind folks that support & work on SM in their own
free time responsive & helpful. For that I definately thank them for
both the fish and their kind work.

If you'd like to help:
http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/

Here's a thought; change to Thunderbird + Firefox (or Opera or some
other mailclient/browser) for awhile. Don't use SeaMonkey. I've actually
tried this on multiple occassions & I've *always* come back to
SeaMonkey. I also tried this on multiple customers/friends/relatives; I
installed Opera/Firefox/Zimbra Desktop/Chrome/Thunderbird/Safari, etc.,
and they *all* came back to SeaMonkey.

Bottom line is that 'you' the user can indeed influence SeaMonkey. No it
may not happen in 2.2.x, and you may get "well we can't due to the
Firefox code), but in the end the user *can* influence & help SeaMonkey
by participating in the project; report bugs, test pre-releases,
participate on the dev list, write documentation, etc., etc.
  I can say that I've not done much (except test pre-releases) lately
due to time issues, but I do think that every little bit helps.

http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/get-involved


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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[Rostyslaw Lewyckyj]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:


On 18/07/2011 12:50, Philip Chee wrote:


On 18/07/2011 10:46, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:


All right, then where does the developer council/
governing body publish the details of the planned
changes to be introduced in the next release, so that
interested users can make their comments known
**early** aka **during pre-release**.
(and then how closely do they follow/stick to
these published plans?)
:) :) :) :) ..


For the 2.1 development process:







And the fortnightly Tuesday meeting notes of course.




This looks helpful, thanks.

However, after v. 2.1 we see only a couple of new features added,
nothing about modifications or deletions. Pretty sketchy stuff.



A visitor to the 2.1 link gets a great big long list of changes
already made,


Cast in frozen code.

But. Leaving aside bug fixes, which of the remaining items are items
forced by Mozilla: Gecko, FF, and TB changes.
And which are freely SM.


but looking forward to the v. 2.2 and 2.3 pages has very little to
respond to.


But supposedly, all the feature changes have already been decided,
and coded, and therefore could be described in detail.
After all from what some have written, they are already now coding
2.5, and 2.2 - 2.4 are in the testing stages!


If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still
don't know about it.



Succintly stated! :)

We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is
offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave.

--
Rostyk

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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Philip Chee wrote:


On 18/07/2011 12:50, Philip Chee wrote:


On 18/07/2011 10:46, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:


All right, then where does the developer council/
governing body publish the details of the planned
changes to be introduced in the next release, so that
interested users can make their comments  known
**early** aka **during pre-release**.
(and then how closely do they follow/stick to
these published plans?)
   :) :) :) :) ..


For the 2.1 development process:







And the fortnightly Tuesday meeting notes of course.




This looks helpful, thanks.

However, after v. 2.1 we see only a couple of new features added, 
nothing about modifications or deletions. Pretty sketchy stuff. A 
visitor to the 2.1 link gets a great big long list of changes already 
made, but looking forward to the v. 2.2 and 2.3 pages has very little to 
respond to. If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still 
don't know about it.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[JohnQPublic]

 wrote in message 
news:mailman.2967.1310869475.4544.support-seamon...@lists.mozilla.org...
>I think you may find Midori a superior choice to Chrome.
>
> No spying and much tighter code.

I took a look but it requires Python 2.4, which I don't have, and am not 
interested in installing. Such packages should be completely self-contained 
not requiring externals if they want to move upwards.
-- 
J.Q.P.
(FF3.6.18 default browser, customized FF5.0_portable with FF3+ theme, 
SeaMonkey2.2_portable, Chrome12_portable, Opera11_portable, Iron12_portable, 
Maxthon3_portable, IE6, Outlook Express default mail/news, XP Home SP3) 


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Re: Updated from 2.0.15pre to 2.2 with no problems.

[WLS]

W3BNR wrote:


Today I updated my laptop from 2.0.15pre to 2.2 with no problems.
First I installed the Add-on Compatibility Reporter ver 0.8.6
Next I installed SM 2.1 overtop of 2.0.15pre.
Then I installed SM 2.2 overtop of 2.1.

Viola - all my add-ons are working - my bookmarks imported fine
no problem with address books (15 different books) - and I'm happy!



This was the same process in which I updated this machine. Add-ons
on this one:

Last updated: Mon Jul 18 2011 10:34:37 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110706
Firefox/5.0 SeaMonkey/2.2

Extensions (enabled: 13)
* Add-on Compatibility Reporter 0.8.6
(https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/add-on-compatibility-reporter/?src=api)

* Autofill Forms 0.9.5.2 (https://blueimp.net/mozilla/)
* BetterPrivacy 1.51 (http://netticat.ath.cx/extensions.html)
* ChatZilla 0.9.87 (http://chatzilla.hacksrus.com/)
* DOM Inspector 2.0.10 (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/inspector/)
* Display Mail User Agent 1.6.5
(http://www.juergen-ernst.de/addons/dispmua.html)
* DownloadHelper 4.9.3 (http://www.downloadhelper.net)
* FireFTP 1.99.5 (http://fireftp.mozdev.org)
* JavaScript Debugger 0.9.88.2 (http://www.hacksrus.com/~ginda/venkman/)
* Password Exporter 1.2.1 (http://passwordexporter.fligtar.com)
* PrefBar 5.1.1 (http://prefbar.mozdev.org/)
* Quote Colors 0.3 (http://quotecolors.mozdev.org/)
* ShowIP 1.1 (http://code.google.com/p/firefox-showip/)




Addons on the laptop:

Last updated: Mon Jul 18 2011 10:40:16 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110706
Firefox/5.0 SeaMonkey/2.2

Extensions (enabled: 8)
* Add-on Compatibility Reporter 0.8.5
(https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/add-on-compatibility-reporter/?src=api)

* ChatZilla 0.9.87 (http://chatzilla.hacksrus.com/)
* DOM Inspector 2.0.10 (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/inspector/)
* DownloadHelper 4.9.3 (http://www.downloadhelper.net)
* IE Tab + 2.03.20110625 (http://coralietab.mozdev.org)
* JavaScript Debugger 0.9.88.2 (http://www.hacksrus.com/~ginda/venkman/)
* PrefBar 5.1.1 (http://prefbar.mozdev.org/)
* Quote Colors 0.3 (http://quotecolors.mozdev.org/)

Although ChatZilla IS installed on both machines, I do not and never have
used it so I don't really know if it works.



ChatZilla works quite well for me.

I only use it for status updates when certain sites go down that also 
have an IRC presence.

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Updated from 2.0.15pre to 2.2 with no problems.

[W3BNR]

Today I updated my laptop from 2.0.15pre to 2.2 with no problems.
First I installed the Add-on Compatibility Reporter ver 0.8.6
Next I installed SM 2.1 overtop of 2.0.15pre.
Then I installed SM 2.2 overtop of 2.1.

Viola - all my add-ons are working - my bookmarks imported fine
no problem with address books (15 different books) - and I'm happy!



This was the same process in which I updated this machine.  Add-ons
on this one:

Last updated: Mon Jul 18 2011 10:34:37 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110706 Firefox/5.0 
SeaMonkey/2.2


Extensions (enabled: 13)
* Add-on Compatibility Reporter 0.8.6 
(https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/add-on-compatibility-reporter/?src=api)

* Autofill Forms 0.9.5.2 (https://blueimp.net/mozilla/)
* BetterPrivacy 1.51 (http://netticat.ath.cx/extensions.html)
* ChatZilla 0.9.87 (http://chatzilla.hacksrus.com/)
* DOM Inspector 2.0.10 (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/inspector/)
* Display Mail User Agent 1.6.5 
(http://www.juergen-ernst.de/addons/dispmua.html)
* DownloadHelper 4.9.3 (http://www.downloadhelper.net)
* FireFTP 1.99.5 (http://fireftp.mozdev.org)
* JavaScript Debugger 0.9.88.2 (http://www.hacksrus.com/~ginda/venkman/)
* Password Exporter 1.2.1 (http://passwordexporter.fligtar.com)
* PrefBar 5.1.1 (http://prefbar.mozdev.org/)
* Quote Colors 0.3 (http://quotecolors.mozdev.org/)
* ShowIP 1.1 (http://code.google.com/p/firefox-showip/)




Addons on the laptop:

Last updated: Mon Jul 18 2011 10:40:16 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110706 Firefox/5.0 
SeaMonkey/2.2


Extensions (enabled: 8)
* Add-on Compatibility Reporter 0.8.5 
(https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/add-on-compatibility-reporter/?src=api)

* ChatZilla 0.9.87 (http://chatzilla.hacksrus.com/)
* DOM Inspector 2.0.10 (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/inspector/)
* DownloadHelper 4.9.3 (http://www.downloadhelper.net)
* IE Tab + 2.03.20110625 (http://coralietab.mozdev.org)
* JavaScript Debugger 0.9.88.2 (http://www.hacksrus.com/~ginda/venkman/)
* PrefBar 5.1.1 (http://prefbar.mozdev.org/)
* Quote Colors 0.3 (http://quotecolors.mozdev.org/)

Although ChatZilla IS installed on both machines, I do not and never have
used it so I don't really know if it works.

--
Ed
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1zhwu/
Powered by SeaMonkey: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/

"Someday, somehow, medical science will find a way to end
 the needless, ghastly suffering caused by the ravages of age!"
 -Dr. John Garth in "Before I Hang" (1940)
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Re: installing all in one sidebar on SM2.2 - how?

[Margo Guda]

Philip Chee wrote:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:31:11 -0400, Margo Guda wrote:

Hello,

Does anyone here know how to install a new version of All in One Sidebar on
Seamonkey 2.2? It says the new version is also incompatible with SM2.2, and
even forcing off compatibility checking it will not install. I have
installed xSidebar, and the older version did work in SM2.0.14, but in 2.2
it will not install.
I have asked at their support forum but so far the question has not even
been posted.

Thanks for any help.
Margo Guda.


As far as I know AiOS has never worked in SeaMonkey. I am the author of
xSidebar and the genesis of xSidebar was partially inspired by AiOS. If
the latter ever worked with SeaMonkey+xSidebar it was totally by accident.

Phil



I suppose that means I should not hold my breath waiting for the ability 
to update a working version of AiOS. Too bad - up until 2.0.14 it worked...


Margo.
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Re: Bug 669207 - right click in the empty part of the tabbar doesn't produce menu

[Robert Kaiser]

Philip Chee schrieb:

This was a deliberate change I introduced when I implemented scrollable
tabs. I think this should go into the FAQ so that I can point people at it.


Just FYI, in Firefox this brings up the usual context menu for 
customizable toolbars and nothing special for the tab bar.


Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never 
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the 
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)

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Re: Version 2.2 auto update and versioning question.

[hawker]

On 7/18/2011 1:07 AM, Bill Davidsen wrote:

I have a bet with someone here that the reaction to my post will be a
personal attack on my tone, accusations of being a whiner, and no
corrective response to the issues I raised.


Or more importantly I did not intend my original questions to be cause 
to debate the validity of the Mozilla foundation or the Seamonkey team's 
decisions. I mearly asked for clarification of a question and got great 
answers from three users.  So lets try not to drag this thread down into 
a Seamonkey bashing thread.


-Hawker



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Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish

[WLS]

Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote:

JeffM wrote:

JeffM wrote:

Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey,
I note that they never mention the authors' participation
in the Release Candidate trial/review process.


Jay Garcia wrote:

What else is required other than to be a "user",


A critique that comes as late as so many of these do
could easily be characterized as "bitching".

OTOH, those folks who are prone to complaining
*should* be the ones who point out shortcomings
**when something can more easily be done about those**
i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**.


All right , then where does the developer coouncil/
governing body publish the details of the planned
changes to be introduced in the next release, so that
interested users can make their comments known
**early** aka **during pre-release**.
(and then how closely do they follow/stick to
these published plans?)
:) :) :) :) ..


Some good sources of information on what is going on with releases.

Planet Mozilla

http://planet.mozilla.org/

Mozilla Wiki

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Main_Page

MozillaZine Forums in the Build sections.

http://forums.mozillazine.org/index.php
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Re: tabs in SeaMonkey 2.2 browser poorly designed

[Lucas Levrel]

Le 13 juillet 2011, Ant a écrit :


On Jul 13, 5:56 am, Lucas Levrel  wrote:

Le 12 juillet 2011, Ant a écrit :


I use hot keys: ctrl-w. Just be careful not to hit q key that is right next
to it to exit SM. I wished I could change it or at least have SM2 prompt me!
:(


If you have several tabs open it should.
Prefs > Browser > Tabbed browsing > Warn me when...


Nope. It exits with ctrl-q hotkeys without any warnings/promptings on
my home (updated XP Pro. SP3) and office (updated 64-bit Windows 7 HP)
PCs. :(


Looks abnormal. What do you get in about:config if you look for 
browser.tabs.warn (I get three "default" set at "true")?


Do you see the problem with a fresh profile?


--
LL
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