Re: Charset revisited
Ray_Net wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote, On 18/03/2013 15:43: Philip TAYLOR wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Soon enough, we won't have to code HTML by hand, we'll just write and format content the way we do in a word processor. We're not there yet, but I can see it coming. Then we won't be writing HTML, we will be designing a web page; two entirely different things. Writing HTML is about semantics : "which element best describes this stretch of text ?"; designing a web page is about appearance : "How and where should this stretch of text (or image, or table, or media element) appear". Yes, but the two tasks are intertwined. The designer sets up a CSS that defines the various elements and then uses those styles to mark his content. Usually the designer tweaks the definitions to achieve the desired look and feel; he doesn't just take them "out of the box." When you write a mail in html form using SM - where is the CSS file ? (after curiosity got the better of me, and I composed in HTML to myself I saw) There isn't one. It uses HTML 4.01/transitional and uses ld (no styles) crap like bgcolor, font, b, i, etc GW ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Ray_Net wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote, On 18/03/2013 15:43: Philip TAYLOR wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Soon enough, we won't have to code HTML by hand, we'll just write and format content the way we do in a word processor. We're not there yet, but I can see it coming. Then we won't be writing HTML, we will be designing a web page; two entirely different things. Writing HTML is about semantics : "which element best describes this stretch of text ?"; designing a web page is about appearance : "How and where should this stretch of text (or image, or table, or media element) appear". Yes, but the two tasks are intertwined. The designer sets up a CSS that defines the various elements and then uses those styles to mark his content. Usually the designer tweaks the definitions to achieve the desired look and feel; he doesn't just take them "out of the box." When you write a mail in html form using SM - where is the CSS file ? Well, that would be a case where the CSS file is null or absent, so the recipient's program uses its own definitions, unless the sender embeds the style definitions in the header of that HTML. Not many users would think to do that or know how. But we were talking about web page design, which as you know is more sophisticated. It's like comparing apples and apple pie, or oranges and orange marmelade. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Paul B. Gallagher wrote, On 18/03/2013 15:43: Philip TAYLOR wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Soon enough, we won't have to code HTML by hand, we'll just write and format content the way we do in a word processor. We're not there yet, but I can see it coming. Then we won't be writing HTML, we will be designing a web page; two entirely different things. Writing HTML is about semantics : "which element best describes this stretch of text ?"; designing a web page is about appearance : "How and where should this stretch of text (or image, or table, or media element) appear". Yes, but the two tasks are intertwined. The designer sets up a CSS that defines the various elements and then uses those styles to mark his content. Usually the designer tweaks the definitions to achieve the desired look and feel; he doesn't just take them "out of the box." When you write a mail in html form using SM - where is the CSS file ? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Philip TAYLOR wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Soon enough, we won't have to code HTML by hand, we'll just write and format content the way we do in a word processor. We're not there yet, but I can see it coming. Then we won't be writing HTML, we will be designing a web page; two entirely different things. Writing HTML is about semantics : "which element best describes this stretch of text ?"; designing a web page is about appearance : "How and where should this stretch of text (or image, or table, or media element) appear". Yes, but the two tasks are intertwined. The designer sets up a CSS that defines the various elements and then uses those styles to mark his content. Usually the designer tweaks the definitions to achieve the desired look and feel; he doesn't just take them "out of the box." Different users have different needs and different skillsets. A professional web designer may have powerful authoring software and make extensive use of scripts, dynamic content, multimedia, etc., whereas an amateur may just want plain vanilla HTML to get a static page up; the web is a mix of all the different types. Because of these differences in purpose, I don't accept the premise that the web is only for the pros and everyone should learn everything. Although there's a skill and an art to coding well, much of HTML coding is routine and mechanical tasks that software can do well. Certainly I wouldn't try to hold back a professional who knows what's under the hood and can make subtle tweaks that the amateur can't. All I'm saying is that much of the mind-numbing routine, mechanical stuff can be taken off our hands (especially the hands of the amateurs) so we can focus on content and layout. And I predict this is coming, because there are millions of users out there who need and want it. I'm not advocating for the inelegant, inefficient M$-style HTML full of useless clutter, and I'm not advocating for bad design. I'm just predicting that our authoring tools will get better, and the web will become more accessible to nonprofessionals. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/18/2013 07:10 AM, Daniel wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: Using file>Save and Change Character Encoding>ISO-8859-1 works. However when I open a file the charset still changes to window I just need to be careful. I have stopped automatic updates because that is what caused my problem a few weeks ago and I now work offline. Seamonkey has worked very well for me the last couple of years because I use simple html code and copy and paste each new file. Here is my website. It is nothing fancy. http://knottsislandonline.com/kiscrapbook/index.html Thanks for your help. Gary Gary, in Composer, when you start work on your web page file, do you start from scratch or do you edit an already saved html file?? I use the new icon and get a very short, basic outline which includes charset. I then hand code the rest. From just my little bit of looking, it seems to me the (unalterable) default font is ISO-8859-1, but, when you save a file, you're asked if you want to save the font with the page, presumably so that when you re-load the page, to edit it, the type of font is then set to what you were using to previously edit the file. Or am I missing something?? The problem is that whenever I reload a saved html the charset is changed to windows-1252. I then have to save it as ISO-8859-1. Sorry, don't know what to suggest. I just :- 1 Opened Composer 2 View->Character Encoding->More Encoding->West European and selected ISO-8859-1 3 Pressed the X in the top right of the screen to close the screen and got a "Save Page" pop-up asking if I wanted to save my changes which had the options to "Don't Save", "Cancel;" and "Save" 3.1 If I selected "Save", I then asked for a Page Title (Test), and then asked where I wanted to save the file. 4 If I then clicked on the Composer icon at the bottom left of the SeaMonkey e-mail screen and ISO-8859-1 was the font pre-selected 5 If I then File-Recent Pages and selected my just closed file, the font was set to ISO-8859-15, as I had selected prior to closing before!! WFM!! Just did it with a second file after setting the font to Armenian, closed this as Test2, re-opened Composer, font was ISO-8859-1, re-opened file Test, Font was ISO-8859-15, closed this, re-opened Composer, font was ISO-8859-1, opened file Test2 and the font was back to Armenian, as it should be!! Still waiting for you, Gary, to respond to my question about Mageina2... Sorry. Not sure what the question was. I use Firefox as my browser and Thunderbird for my email. Gary, perchance do you connect to the internet via 3G Dongle?? (I'm still trying to get mine up and running in Mageina2!!) No. I have a desktop and am directly wired into my router. Gary O.K., thanks. -- Daniel User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:20.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.17 Build identifier: 20130224181913 or User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:20.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/20.0 SeaMonkey/2.17 Build identifier: 20130224182221 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/18/2013 07:10 AM, Daniel wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: Using file>Save and Change Character Encoding>ISO-8859-1 works. However when I open a file the charset still changes to window I just need to be careful. I have stopped automatic updates because that is what caused my problem a few weeks ago and I now work offline. Seamonkey has worked very well for me the last couple of years because I use simple html code and copy and paste each new file. Here is my website. It is nothing fancy. http://knottsislandonline.com/kiscrapbook/index.html Thanks for your help. Gary Gary, in Composer, when you start work on your web page file, do you start from scratch or do you edit an already saved html file?? I use the new icon and get a very short, basic outline which includes charset. I then hand code the rest. From just my little bit of looking, it seems to me the (unalterable) default font is ISO-8859-1, but, when you save a file, you're asked if you want to save the font with the page, presumably so that when you re-load the page, to edit it, the type of font is then set to what you were using to previously edit the file. Or am I missing something?? The problem is that whenever I reload a saved html the charset is changed to windows-1252. I then have to save it as ISO-8859-1. Still waiting for you, Gary, to respond to my question about Mageina2... Sorry. Not sure what the question was. I use Firefox as my browser and Thunderbird for my email. Gary, perchance do you connect to the internet via 3G Dongle?? (I'm still trying to get mine up and running in Mageina2!!) No. I have a desktop and am directly wired into my router. Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/17/2013 10:48 AM, Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: You have a profile. See: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_SeaMonkey I have been using Seamonkey as my html editor only for about the least 2 years. I do not use the web browser for the internet. It was about 2-3 weeks ago that the window charset first appeared. I changed Seamonkey to work offline and changed the about:config to the ISO. Restarted SM and opened a html and got both window and iso now. I will just have to be careful and make sure I save with the ISO. Appreciate your help. Gary Are you saying you've effectively solved the issue? Using file>Save and Change Character Encoding>ISO-8859-1 works. However when I open a file the charset still changes to window I just need to be careful. I have stopped automatic updates because that is what caused my problem a few weeks ago and I now work offline. Seamonkey has worked very well for me the last couple of years because I use simple html code and copy and paste each new file. Here is my website. It is nothing fancy. http://knottsislandonline.com/kiscrapbook/index.html Thanks for your help. Gary Gary, in Composer, when you start work on your web page file, do you start from scratch or do you edit an already saved html file?? From just my little bit of looking, it seems to me the (unalterable) default font is ISO-8859-1, but, when you save a file, you're asked if you want to save the font with the page, presumably so that when you re-load the page, to edit it, the type of font is then set to what you were using to previously edit the file. Or am I missing something?? Still waiting for you, Gary, to respond to my question about Mageina2... Gary, perchance do you connect to the internet via 3G Dongle?? (I'm still trying to get mine up and running in Mageina2!!) -- Daniel User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:20.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.17 Build identifier: 20130224181913 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: > Soon enough, we won't have to code HTML by hand, we'll just write and > format content the way we do in a word processor. We're not there yet, > but I can see it coming. Then we won't be writing HTML, we will be designing a web page; two entirely different things. Writing HTML is about semantics : "which element best describes this stretch of text ?"; designing a web page is about appearance : "How and where should this stretch of text (or image, or table, or media element) appear". Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/17/2013 10:48 AM, Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: You have a profile. See: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_SeaMonkey I have been using Seamonkey as my html editor only for about the least 2 years. I do not use the web browser for the internet. It was about 2-3 weeks ago that the window charset first appeared. I changed Seamonkey to work offline and changed the about:config to the ISO. Restarted SM and opened a html and got both window and iso now. I will just have to be careful and make sure I save with the ISO. Appreciate your help. Gary Are you saying you've effectively solved the issue? Using file>Save and Change Character Encoding>ISO-8859-1 works. However when I open a file the charset still changes to window I just need to be careful. I have stopped automatic updates because that is what caused my problem a few weeks ago and I now work offline. Seamonkey has worked very well for me the last couple of years because I use simple html code and copy and paste each new file. Here is my website. It is nothing fancy. http://knottsislandonline.com/kiscrapbook/index.html Thanks for your help. Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/16/2013 02:51 PM, Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/16/2013 01:17 PM, Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Okay, I poked around a while and found how to change it. In location bar enter "about:config" without the quotes and hit Enter. In the search box enter "charset" w/o quotes. Find the pref "intl.charset.default", double click it, change the encoding to whatever you want. This is what I changed it to: intl.charsetmenu.composer.cache;ISO-8859-1. Does this automatically get saved when I close it? Yes. I tried the composer again and saved the html as the ISO. When I open it again it is the windows-1252. I used a split screen and watched the about.config change from the ISO to windows as I opened the html. That is truly odd. I go back to about:config and I have this: intl.charsetmenu.composer.cache;windows-1252 It's stubborn. I changed about:config in 2 other places to show the ISO and they were saved. Appreciate your help. Gary Do you have a user.js file in your profile? Does this happen in Safe Mode? Create a new profile. Does it still happen after you change about:config? I'm not sure I have a profile. You have a profile. See: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Profile_folder_-_SeaMonkey I have been using Seamonkey as my html editor only for about the least 2 years. I do not use the web browser for the internet. It was about 2-3 weeks ago that the window charset first appeared. I changed Seamonkey to work offline and changed the about:config to the ISO. Restarted SM and opened a html and got both window and iso now. I will just have to be careful and make sure I save with the ISO. Appreciate your help. Gary Are you saying you've effectively solved the issue? -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ Remember, amateurs built the ark, professionals built the Titanic. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/16/2013 02:51 PM, Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/16/2013 01:17 PM, Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Okay, I poked around a while and found how to change it. In location bar enter "about:config" without the quotes and hit Enter. In the search box enter "charset" w/o quotes. Find the pref "intl.charset.default", double click it, change the encoding to whatever you want. This is what I changed it to: intl.charsetmenu.composer.cache;ISO-8859-1. Does this automatically get saved when I close it? Yes. I tried the composer again and saved the html as the ISO. When I open it again it is the windows-1252. I used a split screen and watched the about.config change from the ISO to windows as I opened the html. That is truly odd. I go back to about:config and I have this: intl.charsetmenu.composer.cache;windows-1252 It's stubborn. I changed about:config in 2 other places to show the ISO and they were saved. Appreciate your help. Gary Do you have a user.js file in your profile? Does this happen in Safe Mode? Create a new profile. Does it still happen after you change about:config? I'm not sure I have a profile. I have been using Seamonkey as my html editor only for about the least 2 years. I do not use the web browser for the internet. It was about 2-3 weeks ago that the window charset first appeared. I changed Seamonkey to work offline and changed the about:config to the ISO. Restarted SM and opened a html and got both window and iso now. I will just have to be careful and make sure I save with the ISO. Appreciate your help. Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/16/2013 01:17 PM, Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Okay, I poked around a while and found how to change it. In location bar enter "about:config" without the quotes and hit Enter. In the search box enter "charset" w/o quotes. Find the pref "intl.charset.default", double click it, change the encoding to whatever you want. This is what I changed it to: intl.charsetmenu.composer.cache;ISO-8859-1. Does this automatically get saved when I close it? Yes. I tried the composer again and saved the html as the ISO. When I open it again it is the windows-1252. I used a split screen and watched the about.config change from the ISO to windows as I opened the html. That is truly odd. I go back to about:config and I have this: intl.charsetmenu.composer.cache;windows-1252 It's stubborn. I changed about:config in 2 other places to show the ISO and they were saved. Appreciate your help. Gary Do you have a user.js file in your profile? Does this happen in Safe Mode? Create a new profile. Does it still happen after you change about:config? -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ The chance that you'll forget something is directly proportional to ... to ... uh ... ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/16/2013 01:17 PM, Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Okay, I poked around a while and found how to change it. In location bar enter "about:config" without the quotes and hit Enter. In the search box enter "charset" w/o quotes. Find the pref "intl.charset.default", double click it, change the encoding to whatever you want. This is what I changed it to: intl.charsetmenu.composer.cache;ISO-8859-1. Does this automatically get saved when I close it? I tried the composer again and saved the html as the ISO. When I open it again it is the windows-1252. I used a split screen and watched the about.config change from the ISO to windows as I opened the html. I go back to about:config and I have this: intl.charsetmenu.composer.cache;windows-1252 It's stubborn. I changed about:config in 2 other places to show the ISO and they were saved. Appreciate your help. Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Okay, I poked around a while and found how to change it. In location bar enter "about:config" without the quotes and hit Enter. In the search box enter "charset" w/o quotes. Find the pref "intl.charset.default", double click it, change the encoding to whatever you want. -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/16/2013 04:44 AM, Daniel wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: Is this using Seamonkey for your email or for a webpage? I get the same heading in my html editor for a new web page with the ISO-8859-1. However as soon as I save it, it is changed to windows-1252. I have no control over it. I use Firefox for email in text format. Gary "I use Firefox for email in text format"?? As I understand it, Gary, Firefox is a browser, so why/how are you using it for your e-mail?? For a moment or two, I was thinking you were using FF to compose your e-mails in HTML (can FF be used like that??) but then I noticed you typed "text format", so I don't know what's going on!! My bad. I meant Thunderbird for email. For the charset someone mentioned use file>change and save file encoding. This seems to work. I am able to save in ISO-8859-1. Thanks, Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: Is this using Seamonkey for your email or for a webpage? I get the same heading in my html editor for a new web page with the ISO-8859-1. However as soon as I save it, it is changed to windows-1252. I have no control over it. I use Firefox for email in text format. Gary "I use Firefox for email in text format"?? As I understand it, Gary, Firefox is a browser, so why/how are you using it for your e-mail?? For a moment or two, I was thinking you were using FF to compose your e-mails in HTML (can FF be used like that??) but then I noticed you typed "text format", so I don't know what's going on!! -- Daniel User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:20.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.17 Build identifier: 20130224181913 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: > I tried that. I save as ISO-8859 and when I reopen it is back to > windows. Even when I open old html's that were saved as ISO-8859 and are > on the web as such they become Windows.. I am using SM 2.16. There must > be someplace where you can set the default. Just as a point of interest : how do you /know/ that they are in 1252 encoding ? Are you looking at the source (as I did) or are you being guided by something else ? Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 14/03/2013 23:56, Paul B. Gallagher told the world: I didn't say, and I don't think, that word processors produce good HTML. I wouldn't even try to draft it in Word. But they do make good word-processed documents. With a basic understanding of styles and a few other best practices, you can avoid the problems you describe. Soon enough, you watch, we'll be able to write HTML the way we write wp docs. Not today, but soon. It's only a matter of time. I tried. Believe me, I tried. The styles in Word are a joke -- a *bad* joke. And no, I wasn't talking about HTML editing; I was talking about word processing. I go to the extra step of converting to HTML because Word is unable to give me consistent formatting; HTML+CSS do give me that. Sorry to hear that, it's the opposite of my experience. I'll concede that the built-in styles out of the box don't suit me, so I've redefined them in my Normal template, and I routinely redefine them for specific documents. I do get the consistent formatting you seek, and I've worked with documents as large as 100,000 words. But all this is off-topic here, so let's drop it. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Interviewed by CNN on 14/03/2013 23:56, Paul B. Gallagher told the world: > I didn't say, and I don't think, that word processors produce good HTML. > I wouldn't even try to draft it in Word. But they do make good > word-processed documents. With a basic understanding of styles and a few > other best practices, you can avoid the problems you describe. > > Soon enough, you watch, we'll be able to write HTML the way we write wp > docs. Not today, but soon. It's only a matter of time. I tried. Believe me, I tried. The styles in Word are a joke -- a *bad* joke. And no, I wasn't talking about HTML editing; I was talking about word processing. I go to the extra step of converting to HTML because Word is unable to give me consistent formatting; HTML+CSS do give me that. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my IBM PCjr. * Added by TagZilla 0.7a1 running on Seamonkey 2.16.2 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/15/2013 03:33 PM, Philip TAYLOR wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: Is this using Seamonkey for your email or for a webpage? For a web page. For me, all e-mail is in plain text. I get the same heading in my html editor for a new web page with the ISO-8859-1. However as soon as I save it, it is changed to windows-1252. I did save it, just to check that hypothesis. The results you see are from the browser's source view of the saved copy. I have no control over it. I use Firefox for email in text format. Gary I am also offered "File and change character encoding", which would allow me to select (e.g.,) ISO-8859-1 if it were not the default. Philip Taylor I tried that. I save as ISO-8859 and when I reopen it is back to windows. Even when I open old html's that were saved as ISO-8859 and are on the web as such they become Windows.. I am using SM 2.16. There must be someplace where you can set the default. Thanks for your help, Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: > Is this using Seamonkey for your email or for a webpage? For a web page. For me, all e-mail is in plain text. > I get the same heading in my html editor for a new web page with the > ISO-8859-1. However as soon as I save it, it is changed to > windows-1252. I did save it, just to check that hypothesis. The results you see are from the browser's source view of the saved copy. > I have no control over it. I use Firefox for email in text format. > Gary I am also offered "File and change character encoding", which would allow me to select (e.g.,) ISO-8859-1 if it were not the default. Philip Taylor ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/15/2013 03:15 PM, Philip TAYLOR wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: To me the problem is I am forced to use the windows-1252 charset which I really know nothing about except what was mentioned previously. I should have a choice. As mentioned earlier I can change it in a text editor. Another useless step. I like Seamonkey because to a non-tech it is easy. All my pages are essentially the same so I just copy and paste the html code to each page. If I have trouble I can use CSS Schools and or a local support group. I tried LibreOffice for html. It was atrocious. Now I write the article's in text and then copy and paste into seamonky. This page, created using Seamonkey Composer, is in ISO-8859-1 as expected; do you know why your pages end up in Windows-1252 ? Philip Taylor Hallo Hallo world Is this using Seamonkey for your email or for a webpage? I get the same heading in my html editor for a new web page with the ISO-8859-1. However as soon as I save it, it is changed to windows-1252. I have no control over it. I use Firefox for email in text format. Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: > To me the problem is I am forced to use the windows-1252 charset which I > really know nothing about except what was mentioned previously. I should > have a choice. As mentioned earlier I can change it in a text editor. > Another useless step. I like Seamonkey because to a non-tech it is easy. > All my pages are essentially the same so I just copy and paste the html > code to each page. If I have trouble I can use CSS Schools and or a > local support group. I tried LibreOffice for html. It was atrocious. Now > I write the article's in text and then copy and paste into seamonky. This page, created using Seamonkey Composer, is in ISO-8859-1 as expected; do you know why your pages end up in Windows-1252 ? Philip Taylor Hallo Hallo world ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/14/2013 01:46 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Open the file in a text editor and manually change the charset to whatever you want. Or else ignore it. Gary hasn't really described a problem, other than the unexpected change. To me the problem is I am forced to use the windows-1252 charset which I really know nothing about except what was mentioned previously. I should have a choice. As mentioned earlier I can change it in a text editor. Another useless step. I like Seamonkey because to a non-tech it is easy. All my pages are essentially the same so I just copy and paste the html code to each page. If I have trouble I can use CSS Schools and or a local support group. I tried LibreOffice for html. It was atrocious. Now I write the article's in text and then copy and paste into seamonky. Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
OT Mageia 2 (was:- Re: Charset revisited)
Gary Montalbine wrote: I am using Mageia2 Gary, perchance do you connect to the internet via 3G Dongle?? (I'm still trying to get mine up and running!!) -- Daniel User agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:20.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.17 Build identifier: 20130224181913 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 14/03/2013 22:39, Paul B. Gallagher told the world: Ed Mullen wrote: And I haven't perused the thread in detail. But, it is typical of those who expect WYSIWYG editors to work properly. And then complain. Sigh. It won't do any good but I'll say what I always say: Learn HTML and CSS. Get a good text editor and code by hand. Or. Live with the crap that WYSIWYG programs create. And, yes, I once used them. Back in 1996. And then I grew up. I remember a couple of decades ago when word processors were like that. Remember Word Imperfect's reveal-codes feature, where you could see exactly what it was doing under the hood? Soon enough, we won't have to code HTML by hand, we'll just write and format content the way we do in a word processor. We're not there yet, but I can see it coming. What makes you think that word processors are doing that job any better than WYSIWYG HTML editors? They aren't. I do some amateur fiction writing, and let me tell you: I gave up on Word formatting. After a couple cycles of revision, you are GUARANTEED to end up with misformatted paragraphs, weird inter-line spacing, inconsistently-applied styles, inexplicably changing fonts and the like. And the worst part is, when you try to fix something, it inevitably breaks something else. No, I use Word only for the drafts, and I only do the most basic formatting on it. After I finish the writing, I export it as HTML, clean up all the unbelievable cruft it adds (I have scripts for that) and apply CSS styles by hand. That way, I can actually get what I wanted. I didn't say, and I don't think, that word processors produce good HTML. I wouldn't even try to draft it in Word. But they do make good word-processed documents. With a basic understanding of styles and a few other best practices, you can avoid the problems you describe. Soon enough, you watch, we'll be able to write HTML the way we write wp docs. Not today, but soon. It's only a matter of time. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Interviewed by CNN on 14/03/2013 22:39, Paul B. Gallagher told the world: > Ed Mullen wrote: > >> And I haven't perused the thread in detail. But, it is typical of >> those who expect WYSIWYG editors to work properly. And then >> complain. >> >> Sigh. It won't do any good but I'll say what I always say: >> >> Learn HTML and CSS. >> >> Get a good text editor and code by hand. >> >> Or. >> >> Live with the crap that WYSIWYG programs create. >> >> And, yes, I once used them. Back in 1996. And then I grew up. > > I remember a couple of decades ago when word processors were like that. > Remember Word Imperfect's reveal-codes feature, where you could see > exactly what it was doing under the hood? > > Soon enough, we won't have to code HTML by hand, we'll just write and > format content the way we do in a word processor. We're not there yet, > but I can see it coming. > What makes you think that word processors are doing that job any better than WYSIWYG HTML editors? They aren't. I do some amateur fiction writing, and let me tell you: I gave up on Word formatting. After a couple cycles of revision, you are GUARANTEED to end up with misformatted paragraphs, weird inter-line spacing, inconsistently-applied styles, inexplicably changing fonts and the like. And the worst part is, when you try to fix something, it inevitably breaks something else. No, I use Word only for the drafts, and I only do the most basic formatting on it. After I finish the writing, I export it as HTML, clean up all the unbelievable cruft it adds (I have scripts for that) and apply CSS styles by hand. That way, I can actually get what I wanted. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Casio DataMemo. * Added by TagZilla 0.7a1 running on Seamonkey 2.16.2 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Ed Mullen wrote: And I haven't perused the thread in detail. But, it is typical of those who expect WYSIWYG editors to work properly. And then complain. Sigh. It won't do any good but I'll say what I always say: Learn HTML and CSS. Get a good text editor and code by hand. Or. Live with the crap that WYSIWYG programs create. And, yes, I once used them. Back in 1996. And then I grew up. I remember a couple of decades ago when word processors were like that. Remember Word Imperfect's reveal-codes feature, where you could see exactly what it was doing under the hood? Soon enough, we won't have to code HTML by hand, we'll just write and format content the way we do in a word processor. We're not there yet, but I can see it coming. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Open the file in a text editor and manually change the charset to whatever you want. Or else ignore it. Gary hasn't really described a problem, other than the unexpected change. And I haven't perused the thread in detail. But, it is typical of those who expect WYSIWYG editors to work properly. And then complain. Sigh. It won't do any good but I'll say what I always say: Learn HTML and CSS. Get a good text editor and code by hand. Or. Live with the crap that WYSIWYG programs create. And, yes, I once used them. Back in 1996. And then I grew up. -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ DUMBWAITER: One who asks if the kids would care to order dessert. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Ed Mullen wrote: Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Open the file in a text editor and manually change the charset to whatever you want. Or else ignore it. Gary hasn't really described a problem, other than the unexpected change. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine wrote: On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary Open the file in a text editor and manually change the charset to whatever you want. -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ "I have no choice but to believe in free will." - Randy Wayne White ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/13/2013 02:00 AM, Arne wrote: Gary Montalbine skriver: I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. I am using Mageia2 and BlueGriffon is not offered. Bluefish is offered. However it seems way to complicated for a simple user. Seamonkey is easy for me to code. I have nothing fancy on my site. The only problem I have is being forced to use windows-1252 charset. When I start a new html the default is ISO-8859-1 but it is saved as windows-1252. I shall continue to use it and see if there are problems with the website. Thanks for everybodies help. Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
Gary Montalbine skriver: On 03/11/2013 01:50 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: A Williams wrote: Note that Composer is not the same as the mail composition applet. Composer is an outdated HTML editor. I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary BlueGriffon (http://bluegriffon.org/) has been recommended here previously. -- /Arne ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
On 03/11/2013 01:50 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: A Williams wrote: Note that Composer is not the same as the mail composition applet. Composer is an outdated HTML editor. I use Seamonkey as my html composer. I have a simple website. The windows-1252 charset surprised me. Is there another easy editor you might recommend? Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
chokito wrote: See https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.support.seamonkey/BBpOkoTcgnM/w3eLwRc4awcJ oops - I did not look back far enough. known bug then: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=594646 thanks ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
See https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.support.seamonkey/BBpOkoTcgnM/w3eLwRc4awcJ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
A Williams wrote: A Williams wrote: I receive a number of mails in German and after my most recent upgrade the German special characters are all screwed. If I then click on "Reply" they render correctly in the Composer. Seamonkey 2.16 Linux English as default language Text (non-html) messages. Just for fun I'll append the standard German specials: ÄÖÜ, äöü, ß (= Ae Oe Ue, ae oe ue, ss) Seamonkey 2.16.1 under WinXP has the same problem. Those special chars above render correctly in both cases. I'm pretty sure that levels previous to 2.16 behaved differently. One thing I claimed above was rubbish though - I was reading the mails as html, not text. Changing the setting to text fixed the problem. Since my outgoing mails are text, that is why Composer was behaving correctly. Note that Composer is not the same as the mail composition applet. Composer is an outdated HTML editor. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Charset revisited
A Williams wrote: I receive a number of mails in German and after my most recent upgrade the German special characters are all screwed. If I then click on "Reply" they render correctly in the Composer. Seamonkey 2.16 Linux English as default language Text (non-html) messages. Just for fun I'll append the standard German specials: ÄÖÜ, äöü, ß (= Ae Oe Ue, ae oe ue, ss) Seamonkey 2.16.1 under WinXP has the same problem. Those special chars above render correctly in both cases. I'm pretty sure that levels previous to 2.16 behaved differently. One thing I claimed above was rubbish though - I was reading the mails as html, not text. Changing the setting to text fixed the problem. Since my outgoing mails are text, that is why Composer was behaving correctly. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Charset revisited
I receive a number of mails in German and after my most recent upgrade the German special characters are all screwed. If I then click on "Reply" they render correctly in the Composer. Seamonkey 2.16 Linux English as default language Text (non-html) messages. Just for fun I'll append the standard German specials: ÄÖÜ, äöü, ß (= Ae Oe Ue, ae oe ue, ss) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
