Re: platforms
Miles Fidelman wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rufus wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. There's a big difference in what one can demand of a paid employee and what one can demand of a volunteer. Volunteers donate their time as a gift that is not mandatory, so the recipient cannot reasonably impose conditions on the nature and manner of that donation. If one tries, one will just drive them away. A volunteer who says, don't push me! is warning against crossing that line, and a recipient who complains about whining is showing ingratitude for the gift and disrespect for the donor. Bottom line: if one is not paying for it, one is not entitled to anything. So one should ask nicely or STFU. Well, that's the dilemma of FOSS projects - long term professionalism and stewardship of the project. Some efforts - the Apache HTTPd Daemon, and the Linux kernel come to mind, as do Sendmail, Postfix, PostGress - embody a strong, on-term commitment to a quality piece of software, with quality support; other projects do not. Sometimes it involves creating a formal organization, perhaps with some funding and paid staff, or contribution of time by commercial entities with a vested interest. Sometimes it's through donations. Clearly Firefox and Thunderbird are actively maintained by the Mozilla Foundation, which promises a level of maintenance and professionalism - and it is reasonable to expect as much (particularly if one donates to the Foundation). SeaMonkey, on the other hand, is essentially abandonware, that has been picked up as a community project, only nominally under the aegis of the Mozilla Foundation. And the cracks in that model are starting to show - pieces of the code that aren't maintained at all (e.g, Composer), bugs that never get fixed, the recurring problems with each new release. While I'm sure we all appreciate the volunteer efforts of maintainers - it does seem that more and more people are abandoning SeaMonkey, and it might be reasonable to start asking - is it time for a new model for long term support? Miles Fidelman I think you have a point about SM showing it's age...and I'm sure there *is* some sort of biz ops structure somewhere...but I certainly can't figure out how it works - and maybe that's a problem in and of itself, if none of the folks working the project can, either? This is one of the things that turned me off when I first began participating and actively writing bugs on Bugzilla. I couldn't figure out how anything got accomplished, and watched a lot of UE stuff not being addressed - or even blatantly refused to be changed by *one* coder even though three others didn't concur with his implementation. So I fell back on my initial desire to get and stay actively involved. The team wanted UE experience, but when a user has an input, it seems it's generally ignored in deference to the under the hood geek-stuff. I would think that sheer *pride* in doing the things that make SM different, and stand out from it's parents would be the biggest motivator and driver to keeping those things alive, working properly, and improving...I thought that was what volunteerism was all about - not accolades. Or maybe, much like many big projects which collapse it's just plain gotten too big and is collapsing under it's own weight...maybe there are too many people working on it, and no consensus or direction can be had? -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Rufus wrote: I would think that sheer *pride* in doing the things that make SM different, and stand out from it's parents would be the biggest motivator and driver to keeping those things alive, working properly, and improving...I thought that was what volunteerism was all about - not accolades. Or maybe, much like many big projects which collapse it's just plain gotten too big and is collapsing under it's own weight...maybe there are too many people working on it, and no consensus or direction can be had? If you've ever worked in a large organization, you'll know that different people have different motivations and hot buttons. Some people are most productive if you stroke them, some are most productive if you scold them, some are most productive if you leave them alone, and so forth. Pride is a common motivator, but not the only one. A successful manager will find what works for each person and push that button. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Chris Ilias wrote: On 2015-01-19 9:39 PM, Rufus wrote: Actually, I *do* work in a very large organization...that produces, tests, and releases software for aircraft avionics. We have processes and hierarchy for what gets fixed, in what priority, and in accord with sets of guidelines...same holds for incorporation of improvements based on user/operator input. It doesn't matter who gets hot, bothered, or has a strong opinion - in the end, we all follow a set of rules and no *single* coder gets to break a set of standards or determine what sort of output there will be if more people disagree with his particular approach. There doesn't seem to be any management of what happens to SM...it seems to just get shotgunned. I may have made a rash assumption that someone was in charge of the SM developers...but it certainly didn't appear so in the dispute that halted my wanting to become more deeply involved. Folks, this discussion does not belong in a SeaMonkey support forum. Please take it somewhere else. Umm... gaining a better understanding of how SeaMonkey is supported is not relevant in a support forum. Not quite sure I understand that. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Ed Mullen wrote: Miles Fidelman wrote on 1/19/2015 4:34 PM: P I am willing to be shown to be wrong but on this I do believe that Composer was abandoned long before SeaMonky became a project instead of a product of Mozilla. It has long laguished unserved and under-developed for, perhaps, decades. For good reasons. Actually, it's long taken on a life of it's own - see http://www.kompozer.net/ (formerly nvu, and before that... Composer - the one still in Netscape). In fact, there is little to be served by even discussing it. The notion of WYSIWYG Web design software is largely an abondoned issue. I go back to the 1970s with this. When companies tried to develop programs that created code from WYSIWYG UI input to create multimedia programs. Ummm... Adobe Dreamweaver anyone? There's still lot's of use for simple web pages. The notion that one has to program to put words on a web screen is just absurd for an awful lot of applications. Unfortunately, what tends to happen is words - office - PDF, or worse, to HTML generated by Word's horrendous exporter. Some people actually still write real documents - not silly interactive, ad-filled nonsense. For articles, papers, reports, spec sheets, tech. manuals, lots of things, you don't want to have to code to put words and diagrams on a screen. It never worked well enough to be successful. And I doubt it ever will. Countless companies I used to work with back that tried do do it back then are all gone. There is nothing better than humans knowing how to write correct code and doing it. Count the arrows in my back. I was a pioneer. I know this stuff. Back to the late 70s with Sony, Laserdisc, interactive video, all that. I was there, I spoke on it, sold it, marketed it. I wrote programs for it. Was National Marketing Manger for it. There is not likely, in my lifetime, any program that can take crappy user input via some friendly UI and turn into useful executable code, HTML, script, whatever. Just to use another example - every blog and wiki has a simple editor built in. Work just fine. The, perhaps, operative term there is in my lifetime. I'm almost 65. I sincerely doubt this will happen before my demise. I've been doing this since about 1982. I'm not from Missouri but, okay, Show me. I won't say definitively that it won't happen. But you can roll me over in my grave when it does. Just for the record, Only 60, but I've been doing it as long as you have. Publishing commercial gopher sites, well before this new fangled HTML stuff came along. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Miles Fidelman wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rufus wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. There's a big difference in what one can demand of a paid employee and what one can demand of a volunteer. Volunteers donate their time as a gift that is not mandatory, so the recipient cannot reasonably impose conditions on the nature and manner of that donation. If one tries, one will just drive them away. A volunteer who says, don't push me! is warning against crossing that line, and a recipient who complains about whining is showing ingratitude for the gift and disrespect for the donor. Bottom line: if one is not paying for it, one is not entitled to anything. So one should ask nicely or STFU. Well, that's the dilemma of FOSS projects - long term professionalism and stewardship of the project. Some efforts - the Apache HTTPd Daemon, and the Linux kernel come to mind, as do Sendmail, Postfix, PostGress - embody a strong, on-term commitment to a quality piece of software, with quality support; other projects do not. Sometimes it involves creating a formal organization, perhaps with some funding and paid staff, or contribution of time by commercial entities with a vested interest. Sometimes it's through donations. Clearly Firefox and Thunderbird are actively maintained by the Mozilla Foundation, which promises a level of maintenance and professionalism - and it is reasonable to expect as much (particularly if one donates to the Foundation). SeaMonkey, on the other hand, is essentially abandonware, that has been picked up as a community project, only nominally under the aegis of the Mozilla Foundation. And the cracks in that model are starting to show - pieces of the code that aren't maintained at all (e.g, Composer), bugs that never get fixed, the recurring problems with each new release. While I'm sure we all appreciate the volunteer efforts of maintainers - it does seem that more and more people are abandoning SeaMonkey, and it might be reasonable to start asking - is it time for a new model for long term support? I've read enough gripes here to know SeaMonkey's not perfect (no program of any size is), but I've liked it well enough for long enough that I want to stick with it; I'll only leave if I'm forced out. I've used lots of commercial software that was much worse, so money alone is not the answer. Even so, I think SeaMonkey deserves better, and I hope the organizers will find a way to get it the support it deserves. The volunteers who are keeping it up clearly agree that it's worthwhile, and I'm glad they do. That's why I donate what time and expertise I have to offer. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
In news:gngdntvi8iz49cdjnz2dnuu7-uedn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. Sure. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. You can do better than that; you can killfile people telling you how you should conduct your volunteer work without volunteering any effort (other than typing feedback) of their own. You posted feedback suggesting that the SM devs should do something, and I posted feedback suggesting that you should do something. Apparently, no one's about to say that guy's right! and get to work on either of our suggestions. And that's because that's not how anything gets done in F/LOSS projects, which was my point in the first place. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
In news:6rednsrhdyp6xidjnz2dnuu7-f2dn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: I don't care about any project being F/LOSS, volunteer, or whatever...leaning on that only sounds like an excuse. It's not a valid reason for inaction or non-responsiveness. A basic understanding of how F/LOSS projects work helps a lot if you're trying to work with one. As long as any mention of it sounds like an excuse to you, you can expect to make as much headway as you have so far. [crossposted and followup set to mozilla.general] ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Miles Fidelman wrote on 1/19/2015 4:34 PM: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rufus wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. There's a big difference in what one can demand of a paid employee and what one can demand of a volunteer. Volunteers donate their time as a gift that is not mandatory, so the recipient cannot reasonably impose conditions on the nature and manner of that donation. If one tries, one will just drive them away. A volunteer who says, don't push me! is warning against crossing that line, and a recipient who complains about whining is showing ingratitude for the gift and disrespect for the donor. Bottom line: if one is not paying for it, one is not entitled to anything. So one should ask nicely or STFU. Well, that's the dilemma of FOSS projects - long term professionalism and stewardship of the project. Some efforts - the Apache HTTPd Daemon, and the Linux kernel come to mind, as do Sendmail, Postfix, PostGress - embody a strong, on-term commitment to a quality piece of software, with quality support; other projects do not. Sometimes it involves creating a formal organization, perhaps with some funding and paid staff, or contribution of time by commercial entities with a vested interest. Sometimes it's through donations. Clearly Firefox and Thunderbird are actively maintained by the Mozilla Foundation, which promises a level of maintenance and professionalism - and it is reasonable to expect as much (particularly if one donates to the Foundation). SeaMonkey, on the other hand, is essentially abandonware, that has been picked up as a community project, only nominally under the aegis of the Mozilla Foundation. And the cracks in that model are starting to show - pieces of the code that aren't maintained at all (e.g, Composer), bugs that never get fixed, the recurring problems with each new release. I am willing to be shown to be wrong but on this I do believe that Composer was abandoned long before SeaMonky became a project instead of a product of Mozilla. It has long laguished unserved and under-developed for, perhaps, decades. For good reasons. In fact, there is little to be served by even discussing it. The notion of WYSIWYG Web design software is largely an abondoned issue. I go back to the 1970s with this. When companies tried to develop programs that created code from WYSIWYG UI input to create multimedia programs. It never worked well enough to be successful. And I doubt it ever will. Countless companies I used to work with back that tried do do it back then are all gone. There is nothing better than humans knowing how to write correct code and doing it. Count the arrows in my back. I was a pioneer. I know this stuff. Back to the late 70s with Sony, Laserdisc, interactive video, all that. I was there, I spoke on it, sold it, marketed it. I wrote programs for it. Was National Marketing Manger for it. There is not likely, in my lifetime, any program that can take crappy user input via some friendly UI and turn into useful executable code, HTML, script, whatever. The, perhaps, operative term there is in my lifetime. I'm almost 65. I sincerely doubt this will happen before my demise. I've been doing this since about 1982. I'm not from Missouri but, okay, Show me. I won't say definitively that it won't happen. But you can roll me over in my grave when it does. -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ I'm too shy to express my sexual needs except over the phone to people I don't know. - Garry Shandling ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
On 2015-01-19 9:39 PM, Rufus wrote: Actually, I *do* work in a very large organization...that produces, tests, and releases software for aircraft avionics. We have processes and hierarchy for what gets fixed, in what priority, and in accord with sets of guidelines...same holds for incorporation of improvements based on user/operator input. It doesn't matter who gets hot, bothered, or has a strong opinion - in the end, we all follow a set of rules and no *single* coder gets to break a set of standards or determine what sort of output there will be if more people disagree with his particular approach. There doesn't seem to be any management of what happens to SM...it seems to just get shotgunned. I may have made a rash assumption that someone was in charge of the SM developers...but it certainly didn't appear so in the dispute that halted my wanting to become more deeply involved. Folks, this discussion does not belong in a SeaMonkey support forum. Please take it somewhere else. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca Newsgroup moderator ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rufus wrote: I would think that sheer *pride* in doing the things that make SM different, and stand out from it's parents would be the biggest motivator and driver to keeping those things alive, working properly, and improving...I thought that was what volunteerism was all about - not accolades. Or maybe, much like many big projects which collapse it's just plain gotten too big and is collapsing under it's own weight...maybe there are too many people working on it, and no consensus or direction can be had? If you've ever worked in a large organization, you'll know that different people have different motivations and hot buttons. Some people are most productive if you stroke them, some are most productive if you scold them, some are most productive if you leave them alone, and so forth. Pride is a common motivator, but not the only one. A successful manager will find what works for each person and push that button. Actually, I *do* work in a very large organization...that produces, tests, and releases software for aircraft avionics. We have processes and hierarchy for what gets fixed, in what priority, and in accord with sets of guidelines...same holds for incorporation of improvements based on user/operator input. It doesn't matter who gets hot, bothered, or has a strong opinion - in the end, we all follow a set of rules and no *single* coder gets to break a set of standards or determine what sort of output there will be if more people disagree with his particular approach. There doesn't seem to be any management of what happens to SM...it seems to just get shotgunned. I may have made a rash assumption that someone was in charge of the SM developers...but it certainly didn't appear so in the dispute that halted my wanting to become more deeply involved. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rufus wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. There's a big difference in what one can demand of a paid employee and what one can demand of a volunteer. Volunteers donate their time as a gift that is not mandatory, so the recipient cannot reasonably impose conditions on the nature and manner of that donation. If one tries, one will just drive them away. A volunteer who says, don't push me! is warning against crossing that line, and a recipient who complains about whining is showing ingratitude for the gift and disrespect for the donor. Bottom line: if one is not paying for it, one is not entitled to anything. So one should ask nicely or STFU. ...excuses, excuses. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
»Q« wrote: In news:gngdntvi8iz49cdjnz2dnuu7-uedn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. Sure. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. You can do better than that; you can killfile people telling you how you should conduct your volunteer work without volunteering any effort (other than typing feedback) of their own. You posted feedback suggesting that the SM devs should do something, and I posted feedback suggesting that you should do something. Apparently, no one's about to say that guy's right! and get to work on either of our suggestions. And that's because that's not how anything gets done in F/LOSS projects, which was my point in the first place. I did volunteer my efforts...only to find out that there is such disarray on the team that the team was not worth my time. I do write and maintain very detailed UE bug reports...or I did, in the beginning. The developers asked for someone to do that, for someone with UE experience...which I do professionally. But apparently, volunteers don't like hearing negative user feedback...which is *all* they are going to hear if they are actually interested in UE improvements (which I still see very little attention paid to). So...rather than whining about not getting paid, I quit trying to be formally involved because it was pretty clear that nothing was going to get done or fixed based on anything I had to offer. I don't care about any project being F/LOSS, volunteer, or whatever...leaning on that only sounds like an excuse. It's not a valid reason for inaction or non-responsiveness. Every time I hear this it comes across as we don't really *care* what we are doing. Which I don't believe either. At least I'd like to not believe that. I'd rather hear there isn't time, or there isn't expertise, or there isn't a way to do whatever, or mother Moz is stopping us...we're all geeks here, speak geek, and let us listen to that. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rufus wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. There's a big difference in what one can demand of a paid employee and what one can demand of a volunteer. Volunteers donate their time as a gift that is not mandatory, so the recipient cannot reasonably impose conditions on the nature and manner of that donation. If one tries, one will just drive them away. A volunteer who says, don't push me! is warning against crossing that line, and a recipient who complains about whining is showing ingratitude for the gift and disrespect for the donor. Bottom line: if one is not paying for it, one is not entitled to anything. So one should ask nicely or STFU. Well, that's the dilemma of FOSS projects - long term professionalism and stewardship of the project. Some efforts - the Apache HTTPd Daemon, and the Linux kernel come to mind, as do Sendmail, Postfix, PostGress - embody a strong, on-term commitment to a quality piece of software, with quality support; other projects do not. Sometimes it involves creating a formal organization, perhaps with some funding and paid staff, or contribution of time by commercial entities with a vested interest. Sometimes it's through donations. Clearly Firefox and Thunderbird are actively maintained by the Mozilla Foundation, which promises a level of maintenance and professionalism - and it is reasonable to expect as much (particularly if one donates to the Foundation). SeaMonkey, on the other hand, is essentially abandonware, that has been picked up as a community project, only nominally under the aegis of the Mozilla Foundation. And the cracks in that model are starting to show - pieces of the code that aren't maintained at all (e.g, Composer), bugs that never get fixed, the recurring problems with each new release. While I'm sure we all appreciate the volunteer efforts of maintainers - it does seem that more and more people are abandoning SeaMonkey, and it might be reasonable to start asking - is it time for a new model for long term support? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
»Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
Rufus wrote: »Q« wrote: In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? Anyone that posts feedback is a volunteer. We all do it. If one wants to get paid, one should get a paying job. Otherwise, if you're doing it for the sheer love of doing it, then do the best you can and stop whining about being a volunteer. There's a big difference in what one can demand of a paid employee and what one can demand of a volunteer. Volunteers donate their time as a gift that is not mandatory, so the recipient cannot reasonably impose conditions on the nature and manner of that donation. If one tries, one will just drive them away. A volunteer who says, don't push me! is warning against crossing that line, and a recipient who complains about whining is showing ingratitude for the gift and disrespect for the donor. Bottom line: if one is not paying for it, one is not entitled to anything. So one should ask nicely or STFU. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms
In news:1b2dnxuuo8asgchjnz2dnuu7-xodn...@mozilla.org, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: [about communication wrt level of support for different platforms] Be professional. That's all I really want. Clearly, you have a vision of a much more professional SeaMonkey organization. But IME, telling a community of F/LOSS volunteers what they should do, without doing any of it yourself, is a lot like farting in the wind. Maybe you could open a dialog with the people who build the releases and type up what you learn about multi-platform support in a clear, professional manner? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: platforms [was: SeaMonkey 2.32 released]
Miles Fidelman wrote: PhillipJones wrote: ...I'd like you to be more specific in the Release Notes. Some one of you has a Mac - the task should have been passed off to that individual. If nobody can do that job, then perhaps you should stop releasing a Mac version. Sure. Instead of trying to recruit some people that know Mac. Continue on with the treating Mac's as play toys and Mac users as second class citizens, since they came on the, air and Macs came on Market, over 20 years ago. As a long-time Mac user, I can relate to the sentiment. [Note that I also use Windows (current employer), Linux (server farm that I manage, used to be Solaris, and Android (cell phone), and support my wife and kids' iPads and iPhones - so not coming from a fanboy perspective.] Mac, iPhone, iPads are the fast growing Market in computer industry today. I could swear that it's Android. Apple is making the Most money of any Computer Tech company in existence today. Right up there, but don't count out Samsung, Foxconn, HP, IBM, Google, etc. Not sure if I completely trust Wikipedia as a source, but it's listing samsung as no. 1 right now. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_information_technology_companies) Its seems the majority of people have rebelled against being treated as 5 year old children with Shinny buttons and want the experience of actually using a computer. Laid out like a computer. For PC people System 7 was the best and 10 will apparently back track some what, to System 7 at least in look and feel, If not operation. MS is even planing to Retire IE, and come out with a Shinny new replacement that works like Safari and Chrome. At least some of us still swear by XP - to the extent that corporations are paying 3rd parties for post-end-of-life support. Miles Fidelman Where I work we have tools that still require XP, and need that support...end of life for XP is a real problem, and I can sympathize with that! I don't really care about who has what share of what - I'm all for freedom of choice and what someone uses depends on what they want to *do* IMO, and doesn't bother me a whit. But I do care about truth in advertizing, quality control, and the *whole* job getting done, when and if it's supposedly being done. By it's very nature, if someone is going to sign on to do multi-platform releases of a product they have taken on a *huge* task...I would think - and hope - that people that do this actually understand that and tool up to support each platform equally in the interests of their own integrity and quality control from the *start*. If they can't or aren't willing to do this then I'd rather they just plain stay out of the multi-platform arena and do the best with and for what they choose, rather than to have them releasing sub-quality or non-equivalent quality versions for non-primary platforms just for show. And then *whining* about how whomever they've slighted isn't worth the trouble anyway because they don't amount to much...that's just *really* poor form, and destroys any respect that should be due volunteerism. I mean, SERIOUSLY? Just be clear and concise about limitations and intent so clear choices can be made, and cut the whining. Be professional. That's all I really want. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
platforms [was: SeaMonkey 2.32 released]
PhillipJones wrote: ...I'd like you to be more specific in the Release Notes. Some one of you has a Mac - the task should have been passed off to that individual. If nobody can do that job, then perhaps you should stop releasing a Mac version. Sure. Instead of trying to recruit some people that know Mac. Continue on with the treating Mac's as play toys and Mac users as second class citizens, since they came on the, air and Macs came on Market, over 20 years ago. As a long-time Mac user, I can relate to the sentiment. [Note that I also use Windows (current employer), Linux (server farm that I manage, used to be Solaris, and Android (cell phone), and support my wife and kids' iPads and iPhones - so not coming from a fanboy perspective.] Mac, iPhone, iPads are the fast growing Market in computer industry today. I could swear that it's Android. Apple is making the Most money of any Computer Tech company in existence today. Right up there, but don't count out Samsung, Foxconn, HP, IBM, Google, etc. Not sure if I completely trust Wikipedia as a source, but it's listing samsung as no. 1 right now. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_information_technology_companies) Its seems the majority of people have rebelled against being treated as 5 year old children with Shinny buttons and want the experience of actually using a computer. Laid out like a computer. For PC people System 7 was the best and 10 will apparently back track some what, to System 7 at least in look and feel, If not operation. MS is even planing to Retire IE, and come out with a Shinny new replacement that works like Safari and Chrome. At least some of us still swear by XP - to the extent that corporations are paying 3rd parties for post-end-of-life support. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: places.sqlite (v2.26.1 v2.30 cross platforms)
On 12/21/2014 7:23 PM PT, Cruz, Jaime typed: I briefly checked a MacBook Pro's Mac OS X 10.8.5's SeaMonkey v2.31 and Firefox v34 web browser installations with my Windows XP Pro SP3's and Linux/Debian's SeaMonkey v2.26.1's places.sqlite earlier today. Newer browsers did not show my copied updated places.sqlite stuff. It looks like the newer web browsers also detected corruptions from these old versions' places.sqlite files like my Debian stable's Firefox (deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ wheezy-backports iceweasel-release): -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant 10485760 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite -rwx-- 1 ant ant 20971520 Oct 14 08:28 places.sqlite.corrupt -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant32768 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite-shm -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant 590288 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite-wal So, something did change but what? I CCed mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey to see if any developers can help us too. :( There ya go! If you delete places.sqlite* before copying in your new version of places.sqlite, it works. Fire up Seamonkey (or Firefox) and not only will you have all of your copied bookmarks, but it also recreates the -shm and -wal files. If you don't remove those files first and just overlay places.sqlite, then it'll create the places.sqlite.corrupt file when you start Seamonkey (or Firefox) and you won't have ANY bookmarks. So for now anyway, the solution is to delete (or rm) places.sqlite* in the target directory before copying in your fresh copy of places.sqlite. Interesting. It seems to work so far in Mac OS X 10.8.5's newer web browser versions after copying my older versions. I'll probably upgrade my older web browsers soon after I am done with Christmas stuff. :) -- Merry Christmas (*:)})/:) Birthday Jesus Holidays! /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site) / /\ /\ \Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net | |o o| | \ _ /If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link. ( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed. Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: places.sqlite (v2.26.1 v2.30 cross platforms)
On 12/21/2014 7:22 AM PT, Ed Mullen typed: Do not understand. I don't care how many files contain places.sqlite in their filenames, copying the specific fiel places.sqlite should do the trick. Yeah, that is how I always did it on mine. Obviously, when SM is not running unless I forgot to do that. I think I get denied if I try to copy it if it was in used. At least on Windows I can copy the file if it's in use. Interesting. I briefly checked a MacBook Pro's Mac OS X 10.8.5's SeaMonkey v2.31 and Firefox v34 web browser installations with my Windows XP Pro SP3's and Linux/Debian's SeaMonkey v2.26.1's places.sqlite earlier today. Newer browsers did not show my copied updated places.sqlite stuff. It looks like the newer web browsers also detected corruptions from these old versions' places.sqlite files like my Debian stable's Firefox (deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ wheezy-backports iceweasel-release): -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant 10485760 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite -rwx-- 1 ant ant 20971520 Oct 14 08:28 places.sqlite.corrupt -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant32768 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite-shm -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant 590288 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite-wal So, something did change but what? I CCed mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey to see if any developers can help us too. :( -- The constant creeping of ants will wear away the stone. --unknown /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site) / /\ /\ \Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net | |o o| | \ _ /If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link. ( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed. Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: places.sqlite (v2.26.1 v2.30 cross platforms)
Ant wrote: Interesting. I briefly checked a MacBook Pro's Mac OS X 10.8.5's SeaMonkey v2.31 and Firefox v34 web browser installations with my Windows XP Pro SP3's and Linux/Debian's SeaMonkey v2.26.1's places.sqlite earlier today. Newer browsers did not show my copied updated places.sqlite stuff. It looks like the newer web browsers also detected corruptions from these old versions' places.sqlite files like my Debian stable's Firefox (deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ wheezy-backports iceweasel-release): -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant 10485760 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite -rwx-- 1 ant ant 20971520 Oct 14 08:28 places.sqlite.corrupt -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant32768 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite-shm -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant 590288 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite-wal So, something did change but what? I CCed mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey to see if any developers can help us too. :( There ya go! If you delete places.sqlite* before copying in your new version of places.sqlite, it works. Fire up Seamonkey (or Firefox) and not only will you have all of your copied bookmarks, but it also recreates the -shm and -wal files. If you don't remove those files first and just overlay places.sqlite, then it'll create the places.sqlite.corrupt file when you start Seamonkey (or Firefox) and you won't have ANY bookmarks. So for now anyway, the solution is to delete (or rm) places.sqlite* in the target directory before copying in your fresh copy of places.sqlite. -- Jaime A. Cruz Nassau Wings Motorcycle Club http://www.nassauwings.org/ AMA District 34 http://www.AMADistrict34.com/ Pop's Run http://www.popsrun.org/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: places.sqlite (v2.26.1 v2.30 cross platforms)
On 12/21/2014 7:23 PM PT, Cruz, Jaime typed: I briefly checked a MacBook Pro's Mac OS X 10.8.5's SeaMonkey v2.31 and Firefox v34 web browser installations with my Windows XP Pro SP3's and Linux/Debian's SeaMonkey v2.26.1's places.sqlite earlier today. Newer browsers did not show my copied updated places.sqlite stuff. It looks like the newer web browsers also detected corruptions from these old versions' places.sqlite files like my Debian stable's Firefox (deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ wheezy-backports iceweasel-release): -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant 10485760 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite -rwx-- 1 ant ant 20971520 Oct 14 08:28 places.sqlite.corrupt -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant32768 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite-shm -rw-r--r-- 1 ant ant 590288 Dec 21 09:22 places.sqlite-wal So, something did change but what? I CCed mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey to see if any developers can help us too. :( There ya go! If you delete places.sqlite* before copying in your new version of places.sqlite, it works. Fire up Seamonkey (or Firefox) and not only will you have all of your copied bookmarks, but it also recreates the -shm and -wal files. If you don't remove those files first and just overlay places.sqlite, then it'll create the places.sqlite.corrupt file when you start Seamonkey (or Firefox) and you won't have ANY bookmarks. So for now anyway, the solution is to delete (or rm) places.sqlite* in the target directory before copying in your fresh copy of places.sqlite. Thanks. I'll try again when I get to that MacBook Pro later (not sure when). Maybe I can finally upgrade my SeaMonkey v2.26.1 to v2.30! :D -- An ant is over six feet tall when measured by its own foot-rule. --Slovenian /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site) / /\ /\ \Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net | |o o| | \ _ /If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link. ( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed. A song (i/wa)s playing on this computer: Brian Hacksaw Williams - Push It To The Limit from the Motion Picture Scarface ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey Nightly and Aurora not building for either X86 32 bit or the X86_64 platforms
Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP): It looks like a second build of 2.26b was initiated on 4/9 and is still being built. I am daily building my own SM Trunk Linux x86_64. :) Hartmut ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Seamonkey Nightly and Aurora not building for either X86 32 bit or the X86_64 platforms
The current build, Version 2.27a1, is the most recent build of Seamonkey Nightly that I have, and it has Build identifier: 20140214003001 = 2/17/2014. I understand that there are build server issues. Have you considered using a different build server so that we can eliminate these long lapses between Nightly Builds? I am concerned that there is inadequate testing going on for the Linux 32 and 64 bit platforms. Can we apply a bit of extra effort to get these platforms building again soon please? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Platforms
Philip Chee wrote: On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 21:23:00 +1100, Daniel wrote: but I think the SeaMonkey Council is working on a 'phone version! No we aren't. However I heard some crazy people over in thunderbird land are going to try to get Thunderbird to run on Android. Phil (not holding his breath though) Oh!! O.K., my mistake. -- Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Platforms
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 17/10/2012 16:15, Not@home told the world: I've been very happy using SeaMonkey on my Windows based machines for years. Now I've obtained a smart phone, primarily for internet access using 3G or 4G when I am traveling. It runs on Android. The clerk at the store said it would run any browser, but when I went to the SeaMonkey site, I could find only versions for windows or linux. Is there some way I can get this phone to run SeaMonkey? They keep talking about Apps, but as I have aged I have not kept up with technology, and don't even know what those are. The short of it is: the clerk lied. There are indeed several browsers for Android, but not all of them. Just to stay on the Big Five, Internet Explorer and Safari are not available for Android and probably never will be, since Microsoft and Apple prefer pushing their own platforms. Chrome is, but only if you have a phone running a recent version of Android (4.0 or greater). Even Firefox won't run in the very cheapest phones. Android comes with a Webkit-based browser -- a ho-hum one called just Browser in most versions, and a version of Google Chrome in the most recent releases. Most other browsers for Android are also Webkit-based, like the rather good Dolphin Browser, and most leverage the built-in Webkit engine. Firefox and Opera, however, have their own engines (Gecko for Firefox, Presto for Opera), with all the pluses and minus that it entails. The closest thing to Seamonkey that you can currently get for Android would be Firefox. It uses the same rendering engine (Gecko) and has the ability to synchronize bookmarks, history, passwords and such between mobile and desktop browser (either Firefox or Seamonkey), using the Firefox Sync service. But it does not include a mail/news reader; you have to rely on other Android apps for those. but I think the SeaMonkey Council is working on a 'phone version! -- Daniel ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Platforms
On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 21:23:00 +1100, Daniel wrote: but I think the SeaMonkey Council is working on a 'phone version! No we aren't. However I heard some crazy people over in thunderbird land are going to try to get Thunderbird to run on Android. Phil (not holding his breath though) -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Platforms
I've been very happy using SeaMonkey on my Windows based machines for years. Now I've obtained a smart phone, primarily for internet access using 3G or 4G when I am traveling. It runs on Android. The clerk at the store said it would run any browser, but when I went to the SeaMonkey site, I could find only versions for windows or linux. Is there some way I can get this phone to run SeaMonkey? They keep talking about Apps, but as I have aged I have not kept up with technology, and don't even know what those are. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Platforms
Interviewed by CNN on 17/10/2012 16:15, Not@home told the world: I've been very happy using SeaMonkey on my Windows based machines for years. Now I've obtained a smart phone, primarily for internet access using 3G or 4G when I am traveling. It runs on Android. The clerk at the store said it would run any browser, but when I went to the SeaMonkey site, I could find only versions for windows or linux. Is there some way I can get this phone to run SeaMonkey? They keep talking about Apps, but as I have aged I have not kept up with technology, and don't even know what those are. The short of it is: the clerk lied. There are indeed several browsers for Android, but not all of them. Just to stay on the Big Five, Internet Explorer and Safari are not available for Android and probably never will be, since Microsoft and Apple prefer pushing their own platforms. Chrome is, but only if you have a phone running a recent version of Android (4.0 or greater). Even Firefox won't run in the very cheapest phones. Android comes with a Webkit-based browser -- a ho-hum one called just Browser in most versions, and a version of Google Chrome in the most recent releases. Most other browsers for Android are also Webkit-based, like the rather good Dolphin Browser, and most leverage the built-in Webkit engine. Firefox and Opera, however, have their own engines (Gecko for Firefox, Presto for Opera), with all the pluses and minus that it entails. The closest thing to Seamonkey that you can currently get for Android would be Firefox. It uses the same rendering engine (Gecko) and has the ability to synchronize bookmarks, history, passwords and such between mobile and desktop browser (either Firefox or Seamonkey), using the Firefox Sync service. But it does not include a mail/news reader; you have to rely on other Android apps for those. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. * Added by TagZilla 0.7a1 running on Seamonkey 2.13.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
