Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2017-06-27, Augustine Leudar wrote:

I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. 
HAs anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel 
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to 
loop). [...]


Why not just have a couple of commodity PC's running the highest channel 
count external D/A converters you can muster within your budget? Given 
the existence of 7.1 home cinema, lots of implicitly synchronized 
converters already exist, at reasonable cost. Given the existence of 
newer USB, Firewire, HDMI and even Ethernet based transports, reliably 
feeding such multibank converters shouldn't be a problem.


The only problem is how to keep up synchronization between the 
converters. But then that ought to be a problem which is soluble by 
feedback and software.


First, even low-range modern converters keep pretty good time all by 
themselves. They don't drift too much, compared to what we can hear in 
spatial reproduction; compared to accidentally moving the listeners' 
heads ten centimetres or so in aggregate, even an average free running 
commercial converter will keep adequate time over minutes or tens of 
minutes by comparison.


And second, if you really want to make sure your separate converters run 
in time with each other, it's possible to insert an inaudible timing 
reference into the signal set which lets you do continuous feedback 
correction. If this sounds alarming, it should: lots of papers and 
trials exist which purported to make inaudible changes to the program 
material, yet proved to degrade playback. Especially on the digital 
watermarking side the results have been dismal.


But then, here the application would be rather different. First, unlike 
in watermarking, there would be no requirement for the added signal to 
be highly resilient. Instead it could be optimized to be highly 
inaudible. That means that if it was only added to aid in 
synchronization, it would need a very narrow bandwidth, amplitude and 
the resulting extremely low data rate, so that it could be buried *well* 
below even the perceptual noisefloor of an existing recording.


And secondly, it would only be present upon playback. It wouldn't need 
to be buried into the original program material. It could be optimized 
further, e.g. on psychoacoustical grounds, over just the one playback 
system, or switched off at will if it ever somehow annoyed any listener. 
It could also be different for each playback system, and each 
reproduction instance, so that the human hearing system's notorious 
capability of learning to recognize even low level noise signals, if 
repeated many enough times verbatim, could still be subverted.


As I said, I don't think such solutions exist as of now. But I also 
think the theory behind them is well developed enough to make their 
implementation for your use almost trivial. All we'd need is a) an 
inaudible reference signal to provide us with a relative delay reference 
(easily doable via MLS sequences or the like), 2) a self-acquiring servo 
loop to drive a set of relative delay estimates to zero (a simple 
exercise in first order control theory, with the driving measurement 
being derived from an FFT implemented autocorrelation measure), and 3) a 
high grade, capable of continuous variability delay resampler to be 
driven by such a measurement-correction loop (implementable utilizing 
part of said FFT machinery, or separately if e.g. oversampling, minimum 
phase characteristics or something such is required).


I'll attach Olli Niemitalo here, because he might be even more well 
versed than I am in this sort of thing, and certainly is the more 
adventuresome+productive of us two, in the signal processing department.



Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,


Tape one gigabit ethernet cable into the floor, leading to your 
converter bank in the next combustion compartment. Software gang it up 
with a wifi route leading to the same destination.


The only way it's proofer to the end of the world, or your kids, is a 
setup where you can't actually route back the signal to be heard, in the 
first place. ;)

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Re. Re: Re Re: Ambisonic Mic Comparison

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2017-06-26, David Pickett wrote:

This whole business of low noise microphones and preamps is in my 
experience a non-issue in the vast majority of cases.


That said, I was upset to discover that MOTU publish no details on their 
website of the 4Pre that can be construed as truly technical. [...]


Obviously they should publish their figures. In fact I don't think we 
should really implicitly trust any figure given out by any equipment 
purveyor. Instead we should, how was it now, "trust, but verify".


My personal waking up experience there was when I as a teenager upgraded 
from a Gravis Ultrasound soundcard to a Gravis Ultrasound MAX. At the 
time those were the most cost efficient means of producing sampled sound 
from a PC expansion card, and I believe it's settled the original Gravis 
card, at least in its later iterations, can still be called a small 
marvel of sound, low-cost engineering.


The MAX on the other hand immediately sounded noisy and irritating to 
me. Of course I still just had to have it, because it was the first 
credible consumer range card on the market to not only support 44/16 
playback, but to have it done at low central processor load. Gravis 
achieved that by tacking on a separate Crystal Logic two channel 
converter chip (CS4231), while leaving their existing custom GF1 ASIC 
chip to do offloaded sample playback synthesis (32 voices!!!). The 
efficiency gain in direct playback was because you could do DMA over the 
ISA bus, without the tortuous peeking and poking and unreliable 
DMA-to-device-memory, and chunking to fit register constraints, and 
without any hardware synchronization on board the GF1, and whatnot. 
Programming that chip was sheer hell, which showed in any application 
not doing precisely what it was meant to do, and everybody liked the 
stupider, more direct access of the MAX's new chip.


Except that the card sounded like shit. No user accessible feature of it 
made it silent. It not only hissed, it let through power supply 
fluctuations. Those emanating from hard drive seek servoes, in 
particular.


I eventually got incensed enough to actually contact Crystal Logic, and 
procure the new chip's databook. (Then they still used to send them for 
free, over mail.) My first analysis of the problem was that they had 
this new, unknown to me thingy called "dither" in there, and after duly 
disassembling half of Gravis's driver code, I determined it was turned 
on. So I dialed, a number of times over successive days or perhaps even 
weeks, Gravis's Finnish helpline. (They had to have that, because the 
Finnish Demo Scene was a considerable driver of Gravis sales then. Demos 
can't waste any cycle, now..? ;) ) I pestered the hell out of a couple 
of service reps and even a couple of engineers, to no eventual avail. I 
resigned to the reality of a now-shitty soundcard, and eventually just 
switched it out as part of technological development.


A few years later, after I'd finally taken a slightly more involved look 
into mixed analogue-digital engineering as well -- and still nothing 
spectacular, just the barest of basics -- I suddenly thought to look 
back at my noise problem with the MAX. As it happened, I still had the 
databook of the new converter chip with me, with its reference PCB 
design, not to mention both the physical card *and* a '486 carrying 
motherboard in which to plug it.


If I remember correctly, I ended up cutting a couple of line level 
connects on the board and rerouting them through a haphazard out of 
board capacitive traps. Did something similar to separate a couple of 
digital signals, including the the clock signal to the new converter 
chip, from the analogue earth. Put a bit of actual tin foil encased 
in saran wrap over the digital section, strategically grounded.


...and then most crucially completely reworked how the analogue 
reference of the new converter chip was fed. Because that was the true 
root cause of the problem: for some reason unfathomable to me, Gravis's 
engineers had decided to mostly adapt Cirrus's reference layout for the 
new section, *except* for the *explicit* warnings against in *any* way 
directly coupling the pin to the workings of the digital section. Even 
touching its (in itself well designed, wide) ground willy-nilly, because 
of what ground resistance and reactance do to all of them funny-funny 
digital switching transients (remember, at that time the voltages and 
currents we worked with on the digital side were at least a decade and 
sometimes more beyond today's figures). The circuit board also relied on 
external regulation alone, with typically *very* substandard performance 
as far as audiophiles would have it; while the first iteration with only 
the GF1 ASIC and its analogue output circuitry had been well designed to 
withstand that, the added-on Cirrus chip couldn't cope with that at all.


The final version of my modifications brought down the total noise 
somewhere in excess of 30dB. 

Re: [Sursound] Re. Re: Re Re: Ambisonic Mic Comparison

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2017-06-26, David Pickett wrote:

This whole business of low noise microphones and preamps is in my 
experience a non-issue in the vast majority of cases. Very few 
environments are quiet enough to be softer than the noise level of 
most microphones.


Agreed, and thanks for pointing that aspect out aloud. Quite a number of 
people -- myself in particular because I have very little on-field 
experience -- tend to be swayed by minute theoretical disagreements 
which have absolutely nothing to do with our two shared goals: the best 
all-round practical signal chain possible, and the best sounding records 
(in their many forms) achievable within its bounds.


Sampo is right about the ease with which a high quality mic amp can be 
put together, taking reasonable (and obvious) precaution with 
screening, rf suppression and PSU smoothing. [...]


Now if only all of the bucks being thrown at the problem went to 
mitigating such real and well known culprits. If only we did high 
fidelity and the high tech which goes along with it at the *true* 
fidelity margin, at all price points. I mean if we ever got close to 
something like *that* principle, you could even today have a well 
rounded, effective setup for less than a week's pay. If you decided to 
invest more and had the wherewithal to go there, you could do even 
better -- but now all-round, so that what you saved in your mic and 
preamp, you could invest into acoustic treatment, professional help and 
whatnot, which currently tend to be underappreciated wrt to the 
difference they make.


I have a dream... :D
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Charlie - I was hoping you would chime in - my internets a bit
weird at the moment so I cant really see your page properly (I can
only see software?) What hardware have you got that will do up to 22
channels and whats the price ?
cheers,
Gus

On 27/06/2017, Charlie Richmond <charlie@gmail.com> wrote:
> Over 1.5 million virtual channels in permanent installations now:
>
> http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/news.html#pu
>
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Charlie Richmond <charlie@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:08 AM, David Pickett <d...@fugato.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At 19:12 27/06/2017, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
>>>> Augustine Leudar wrote: >  >Hi, >  >I know I've asked this before but
>>>> maybe
>>>> there's some new developments. > HAs >  >anyone any suggestions for
>>>> anything up to a permanent 22 channel >  >installation (could be two
>>>> devices started at the same time and set to >  >loop) . The best
>>>> suggestion
>>>> Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk >  >recorders for use with
>>>> mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the >  >computer with
>>>> multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id >  >like to
>>>> repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand Alesis
>>>> HD24, if you are on a low budget.  They are > bomb-proof. Iff you can
>>>> get
>>>> the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices
>>>> these
>>>> days :-D
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the old
>>> parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
>>> converted machines to run with modern SATA disks.  Unlike the USB stick,
>>> nobody is likely to nick the HD!
>>>
>>> As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it works
>>> it seems to go for ever.  However, as a consequence of this, I see that
>>> prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> * Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
>> <http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
>> * Viber: +16047159441 <(604)%20715-9441> Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter:
>> charlierichmond
>> * facebook: charlie.richmond
>> * facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
>> <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
>> * google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
>>
>
>
>
> --
> * Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
> <http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
> * Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
> * facebook: charlie.richmond
> * facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
> <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
> * google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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-- 
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Charlie Richmond]

Over 1.5 million virtual channels in permanent installations now:

http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/news.html#pu

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Charlie Richmond <charlie@gmail.com>
wrote:

> http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html
>
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:08 AM, David Pickett <d...@fugato.com> wrote:
>
>> At 19:12 27/06/2017, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
>>> Augustine Leudar wrote: >  >Hi, >  >I know I've asked this before but maybe
>>> there's some new developments. > HAs >  >anyone any suggestions for
>>> anything up to a permanent 22 channel >  >installation (could be two
>>> devices started at the same time and set to >  >loop) . The best suggestion
>>> Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk >  >recorders for use with
>>> mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the >  >computer with
>>> multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id >  >like to
>>> repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand Alesis
>>> HD24, if you are on a low budget.  They are > bomb-proof. Iff you can get
>>> the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices these
>>> days :-D
>>>
>>
>> I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the old
>> parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
>> converted machines to run with modern SATA disks.  Unlike the USB stick,
>> nobody is likely to nick the HD!
>>
>> As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it works
>> it seems to go for ever.  However, as a consequence of this, I see that
>> prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
>>
>> David
>>
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> * Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
> <http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
> * Viber: +16047159441 <(604)%20715-9441> Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter:
> charlierichmond
> * facebook: charlie.richmond
> * facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
> <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
> * google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
>



-- 
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
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* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Charlie Richmond]

http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/virtual-sound-system.html

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:08 AM, David Pickett <d...@fugato.com> wrote:

> At 19:12 27/06/2017, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>
>> On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > At 13:52 27/06/2017,
>> Augustine Leudar wrote: >  >Hi, >  >I know I've asked this before but maybe
>> there's some new developments. > HAs >  >anyone any suggestions for
>> anything up to a permanent 22 channel >  >installation (could be two
>> devices started at the same time and set to >  >loop) . The best suggestion
>> Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk >  >recorders for use with
>> mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been > the >  >computer with
>> multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id >  >like to
>> repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof, > > A second hand Alesis
>> HD24, if you are on a low budget.  They are > bomb-proof. Iff you can get
>> the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching collector's prices these
>> days :-D
>>
>
> I am still using mine (as a backup, connected with ADAT I/O) with the old
> parallel disks, but members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully
> converted machines to run with modern SATA disks.  Unlike the USB stick,
> nobody is likely to nick the HD!
>
> As to not having a guarantee, the system is so simple that once it works
> it seems to go for ever.  However, as a consequence of this, I see that
> prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.
>
> David
>
> ___
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 
* Charlie Richmond - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com
<http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/>
* Viber: +16047159441 Skype, LinkedIn & Twitter: charlierichmond
* facebook: charlie.richmond
* facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richmond-Sound-Design-Ltd/130195960832>
* google.com/+CharlieRichmond google.com/+Richmondsounddesign
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[David Pickett]

At 19:12 27/06/2017, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote: > 
At 13:52 27/06/2017, Augustine Leudar 
wrote: >  >Hi, >  >I know I've asked this before 
but maybe there's some new developments. > 
HAs >  >anyone any suggestions for anything up 
to a permanent 22 channel >  >installation 
(could be two devices started at the same time 
and set to >  >loop) . The best suggestion Ive 
had I think is one of those old hard 
disk >  >recorders for use with mixing desks ? 
Any other suggestions ? Ive been > 
the >  >computer with multchannel soundcard 
route and it is not an experience Id >  >like to 
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult 
proof, > > A second hand Alesis HD24, if you are 
on a low budget.  They are > bomb-proof. Iff you 
can get the appropriate disks, which seem to be 
fetching collector's prices these days :-D


I am still using mine (as a backup, connected 
with ADAT I/O) with the old parallel disks, but 
members of the Yahoo HD24 group have successfully 
converted machines to run with modern SATA 
disks.  Unlike the USB stick, nobody is likely to nick the HD!


As to not having a guarantee, the system is so 
simple that once it works it seems to go for 
ever.  However, as a consequence of this, I see 
that prices are holding steady on Ebay at c. 500 quid.


David

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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Marc Lavallée]

I see... But a standalone player is nothing else than a dedicated
computer, configured for the task of playing multi-channel audio. A
pre-configured PC can be configured to be idiot-proof with much more
options (EQ, etc) at the expense of more effort (I agree). The Cymatic
unit looks nice, but we can read on the product page: "The uTrack24
records directly onto USB media plugged into the front panel,...". So
unless the unit and the USB media are itself enclosed or secured,
there's a risk that something goes wrong. Also, does it have an
auto-play feature (in case of a power reset)? Or an auto-loop feature?
The uTrack24 is designed for a specific target audience and a few use
cases. Because there's no free lunch, and many possible specific
scenarios, I would still favor a computer based solution. 
--
Marc

Le Tue, 27 Jun 2017 16:30:09 +0100
Augustine Leudar  a écrit:

> This Cymatic thing looks promising - so it works as as standalone ?
> What storage medium does it use ?
> Marc - the main problem was the USB cable getting jogged loose despite
> being well out of harms way (or so I thought), cleaners unplugging the
> computer to hoover and then different drivers not being found and
> finally the two motu ultralites making very loud weird clicking noises
> (not buffer related) after a few weeks. There were other issues but Id
> rather keep things in one box rather than having to automate, tweak
> and control an operating system  and remove loads of unessassry
> background processes (even linux).
> 
> On 27/06/2017, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
> > Augustine Leudar  wrote:  
> >> Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is
> >> not an experience Id like to repeat.  
> >
> > What were the problems you experienced?
> >
> > --
> > Marc
> > ___
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> > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >  
> 
> 

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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 06/27/2017 01:52 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:> Ive been the> computer 
with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id> like to 
repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,

Can I ask what went wrong?


--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 06/27/2017 02:53 PM, David Pickett wrote:

At 13:52 27/06/2017, Augustine Leudar wrote:
 >Hi,
 >I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. 
HAs

 >anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
 >installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
 >loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
 >recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been 
the

 >computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
 >like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,

A second hand Alesis HD24, if you are on a low budget.  They are 
bomb-proof.


Iff you can get the appropriate disks, which seem to be fetching 
collector's prices these days :-D


There is also this:
https://joeco.co.uk/multi-track-audio-players-products-live-install-joeco/

Played with it at a trade show, my impression was a very good one. Not 
cheap though.



--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
De Rijpgracht 8, 1055VR Amsterdam, Nederland
Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Augustine Leudar]

Hmmm that's already making me nervous... I can see it now Staff member :
"has anyone got a USB stick I can borrow ?" "Just use that one in that
weird box thing behind the counter" etc etc maybe I'm being over the top
but you wouldn't believe what people get up toshame it doesn't have an
SD card slot. Still the best option so far and at least it would have a
guarantee - the alesis looks good but second hand means no guarantee.

On Tuesday, 27 June 2017, Wim <object...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Augustine,
>
> It uses anything that's USB2 compatible. Stick, harddisk, MP3 player (if
> the MP3 player has a disk-like operating mode)...
>
> It's also a USB audio interface.
>
> And there's a recorder counterpart, the LR16. No preamps, so it is very
> affordable.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wim
>
> 2017-06-27 17:30 GMT+02:00 Augustine Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>:
>
> > This Cymatic thing looks promising - so it works as as standalone ?
> > What storage medium does it use ?
> > Marc - the main problem was the USB cable getting jogged loose despite
> > being well out of harms way (or so I thought), cleaners unplugging the
> > computer to hoover and then different drivers not being found and
> > finally the two motu ultralites making very loud weird clicking noises
> > (not buffer related) after a few weeks. There were other issues but Id
> > rather keep things in one box rather than having to automate, tweak
> > and control an operating system  and remove loads of unessassry
> > background processes (even linux).
> >
> > On 27/06/2017, Marc Lavallée <m...@hacklava.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
> > > Augustine Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >> Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not
> > >> an experience Id like to repeat.
> > >
> > > What were the problems you experienced?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Marc
> > > ___
> > > Sursound mailing list
> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu <javascript:;>
> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here,
> > edit
> > > account or options, view archives and so on.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Augustine Leudar
> > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> > Company Number : NI635217
> > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> > Belfast BT88LL
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu <javascript:;>
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
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>


-- 
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Augustine Leudar]

This Cymatic thing looks promising - so it works as as standalone ?
What storage medium does it use ?
Marc - the main problem was the USB cable getting jogged loose despite
being well out of harms way (or so I thought), cleaners unplugging the
computer to hoover and then different drivers not being found and
finally the two motu ultralites making very loud weird clicking noises
(not buffer related) after a few weeks. There were other issues but Id
rather keep things in one box rather than having to automate, tweak
and control an operating system  and remove loads of unessassry
background processes (even linux).

On 27/06/2017, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
> Augustine Leudar  wrote:
>> Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not
>> an experience Id like to repeat.
>
> What were the problems you experienced?
>
> --
> Marc
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit
> account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Marc Lavallée]

On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
Augustine Leudar  wrote:
> Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not
> an experience Id like to repeat.

What were the problems you experienced?

--
Marc
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic Mic Comparison

[Steven Boardman]

What a lovely can of worms we opened...

Thanks for the info Richard.

My 4pre seems to be holding up well. It's about 3 years old.  I got it very
cheap second hand too...
I also have two 24i/o and six 2408 mark 3. All still seem to be rocking,
and purchased
 cheap second hand. Although i don't use for inputs (no preamps anyway,
just line) , i only use for playback.
A long time ago i had an original 2408, and as Michael mentioned, it really
was rubbish sounding. Very reliable though, and a very very cheap way to
get a load of outputs.  If you have a pci/e bus.

Best

Steve
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[David Pickett]

At 13:52 27/06/2017, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>Hi,
>I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. HAs
>anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
>installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
>loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
>recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been the
>computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
>like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,

A second hand Alesis HD24, if you are on a low budget.  They are bomb-proof.

David

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[Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi,
I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. HAs
anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been the
computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
cheers,
Gus
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic Mic Comparison

[Augustine Leudar]

yikes -  hope this doesn't apply to Motu's avb series too - I just got a 24
ao and am thinking if a 24 ai

On 27 June 2017 at 11:37, Richard Lee <rica...@justnet.com.au> wrote:

> There's a number of issues brought up in this thread which Core Sound have
> been aware of for some time and have been attempting to address.  But its
> difficult for a small company to make major changes on the small turnover.
>
> For what its worth, the 'new' PPAc will give around 1dB improvement in
> perceived S/N regardless of your favourite weighting (more if you are not
> using a Metric Halo or similar).  This has been achieved mainly by a bit
> more than 1dB more output. 8>D
>
> The MOTU Traveler has near SOTA noise performance but the design is flawed
> and they often become very noisy over time.  If you have one which has been
> OK for more than 12 mths, you are probably OK
>
> I'm on my 3rd Traveler.  The 2nd one developed the noise almost exactly 12
> mths after I received it.  As the 1st took 3 mths to be 'repaired', those
> of us in Oz are not happy bunnies.  (The Traveler is actually Angelo
> Farina's who kindly lent it to Cooktown Recording and Ambisonic
> Productions.)
>
> Its pretty obvious MOTU don't have in-house design expertise and they deny
> there is a problem.  I've not looked inside a MOTU 4pre ... but so far,
> those we know of haven't developed this problem so it has our cautious
> recommendation.
>
> In terms of noise with TetraMic, I'd expect a 'good' Traveler to be on par
> with Sound Devices and Metric Halo (sadly Mac only) and you would notice
> the noise difference between these and the DR680 which is our
> recommendation for an inexpensive portable device.
>
> My experience is if you are not recording bird song in the Norfolk Broads,
> the noise performance of TetraMic wth the above good preamps is not a
> problem.  There are some excellent recordings on Ambisonia from John
> Leonard & Paul Hodges .. some of which were made in a very quiet studio.
>
> That's not to say we aren't working on even better performance ... 8>D
> ___
>
> (There are problems with noise on the P48V on early DR680s and Paul Hodges
> has a mod for these on Channels 1-4.  I believe, TASCAM, Europe were
> modifying Mk1 DR680s and the new one has sorted this out.
>
> If you have an old DR680, it is worth doing Paul's mod as it affects some
> mikes, both $$$ & inexpensive.  TetraMic is actually pretty immune to P48V
> noise.)
> __
>
> If you have a good A/D without preamps, you can build a 4 channel preamp
> using THAT chips with near SOTA performance.
>
> Bear in mind you need to match THAT 1510s & 1512s for gain.  The internal
> resistors are laser trimmed for CMR but the absolute values differ from
> chip to chip.  Thanks to David Pickett for this tip.
>
> If you prefer to use SSM2019 or TI INA163 chips, use them with the latest
> THAT circuits for more reliable long term performance.  All three are
> capable of excellent performance in the right circuit.
>
> It's the protection scheme that is flawed on the SSM, TI & (very early)
> THAT circuits.  The correct protection is cheapo 1n4004 diodes, preferable
> Glass Passivated 1n4004GP.
>
>
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-- 
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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