Re: [Sursound] [allowed] Re: Soundfield by Rode plugin

[Gerard Lardner]

Has anyone done a calibration of a RØDE NT-SF1 and compared the RØDE 
A-to-B format conversion with the conventional matrix and calibration 
filter A-to-B format conversion - including the effect of a moving mic 
or sound source? Anyone willing to take it on? The results could be very 
interesting.


Gerard Lardner


On 17/12/2018 09:39, Dave Hunt wrote:

Hi,


There is slightly more description of their A to B-format processing
(but not much) in Rode's blog:

<http://www.rode.com/blog/all/soundfield-plugin>

>From that web page.

"The SoundField by RØDE plug-in uses a new time-frequency adaptive approach for A to 
B-format conversion. This complex mathematical process means the phase between the 
A-format channels are aligned prior to application of the conversion matrix – essentially 
correcting for the non-coincidence of the capsules prior to any further processing."

How might they phase/time align the capsules ??

This must indeed be highly complex, as it is frequency dependent (low 
frequencies have smaller phase differences than high frequencies) as well as 
source directionally (across multiple blind sources) dependent.

Ciao,

Dave Hunt



On 16 Dec 2018, at 17:00,sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu  wrote:


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   1. Re: Soundfield by Rode plugin (Gary Gallagher)

From: Gary Gallagher
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Soundfield by Rode plugin
Date: 16 December 2018 04:36:11 GMT
To: Surround Sound discussion group


Thanks for that reference. I guess we'll just have to wait for more
information to filter out.

On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 01:36 Paul Hodges  wrote:


There is slightly more description of their A to B-format processing
(but not much) in Rode's blog:

<http://www.rode.com/blog/all/soundfield-plugin>

Paul

--
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Re: [Sursound] Comparison Sennheiser Ambeo mic vs. Rode NT-SF1?

[Daniel Rudrich]

Well to clarify and bring into context, I don’t own a NT-SF1, so I can’t 
confirm that.
I just mentioned the possible artifacts which can (don’t have to) occur with 
time-frequency domain processing.
And I also wrote that adaptive, signal dependent processing is the way to go to 
get the best out of FOA. A student of ours (IEM) just recently released his 
AdaptiveBinauralDecoder plug-in as a Beta version. Also adaptive and FOA.

Daniel


> Am 17.12.2018 um 20:28 schrieb Len Moskowitz :
> 
> I wrote:
> 
> 
>> There has been a report that the encoder introduces unpleasant sonic
>> artifacts if the NT-SF1 is in motion during recording. Links to
>> recordings made that way were posted on Facebook, and I've heard them.
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel Rudrich confirmed that the Rode plugin produces artifacts when the 
> microphone is moved.
> 
> 
> On Facebook he wrote:
> 
> 
>> You can actually see those artifacts with encoding two sinusoids in different
>> directions and look at the visualization. When you change the frequency of
> 
>> one, there seem to be three sources.
> 
> 
> Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
> Core Sound LLC
> www.core-sound.com
> Home of OctoMic and TetraMic
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Soundfield by Rode plugin

[Politis Archontis]

Hi,

There are various ways to do it, one is to assume a sound-field model (e.g. 
direct & diffuse sound), estimate the model parameters in each frequency bin, 
and then use them to align the signals in a coincident way, such a parametric 
approach was presented by us in AES Convention in Milan last year for similar 
applications and higher-order recording.

Another very sensible approach was presented by Cristoff Faller and Illusonics 
in the same conference, in a simpler adaptive filter is used to align the 
microphone signals to the phase of one of the capsules, making them again in 
essence coincident.

Parametric approaches for playback and recording (see e.g. DirAC, HARPEX, 
countless speech enhancement methods) have gone a long way in the last decades 
in terms of quality and they’re definitely not “snake oil” :-).

Best regards,
Archontis Politis
Post-doctoral Researcher
Department of Signal Processing and Acoustics
Aalto University
Finland






On 17 Dec 2018, at 11:39, Dave Hunt 
mailto:davehuntau...@btinternet.com>> wrote:

Hi,

There is slightly more description of their A to B-format processing
(but not much) in Rode's blog:

<http://www.rode.com/blog/all/soundfield-plugin>

>From that web page.

"The SoundField by RØDE plug-in uses a new time-frequency adaptive approach for 
A to B-format conversion. This complex mathematical process means the phase 
between the A-format channels are aligned prior to application of the 
conversion matrix – essentially correcting for the non-coincidence of the 
capsules prior to any further processing."

How might they phase/time align the capsules ??

This must indeed be highly complex, as it is frequency dependent (low 
frequencies have smaller phase differences than high frequencies) as well as 
source directionally (across multiple blind sources) dependent.

Ciao,

Dave Hunt



On 16 Dec 2018, at 17:00, 
sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu<mailto:sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu> wrote:

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important.Today's Topics:

 1. Re: Soundfield by Rode plugin (Gary Gallagher)

From: Gary Gallagher 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Soundfield by Rode plugin
Date: 16 December 2018 04:36:11 GMT
To: Surround Sound discussion group 


Thanks for that reference. I guess we'll just have to wait for more
information to filter out.

On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 01:36 Paul Hodges  wrote:

There is slightly more description of their A to B-format processing
(but not much) in Rode's blog:

<http://www.rode.com/blog/all/soundfield-plugin>

Paul

--
Paul Hodges

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Re: [Sursound] Soundfield by Rode plugin

[Chris Woolf]

On 17/12/2018 10:10, David Pickett wrote:


A "time-frequency adaptive approach"

What?

Unless it works spectacularly well, I would suspect the application of 
snake oil.


If this is a 3D version of the sort of technique used to improve the 
directivity of an axial mic then it can sound pretty good. The Schoeps 
SuperCMIT produces excellent sound quality with gentle processing help, 
and only starts to show faint artefacts when things are pushed very hard 
indeed.


Chris Woolf


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Re: [Sursound] Soundfield by Rode plugin

[Chris Woolf]

On 17/12/2018 09:39, Dave Hunt wrote:


How might they phase/time align the capsules ??

This must indeed be highly complex, as it is frequency dependent (low 
frequencies have smaller phase differences than high frequencies) as well as 
source directionally (across multiple blind sources) dependent.

Surely this is just multiple beam-forming - taking the different signal 
levels of single events at each capsule and correcting them in the time 
domain to be aligned as closely as possible. Yes, that's frequency 
dependent so has to be done narrow band, but can be done for multiple 
events, a multiple number of times.


This seems to be an approach that's been used by at least two mic 
manufacturers that I know  of (Audio Technica and Schoeps) to improve 
directivity of axial mics. With increasing processing power the ability 
to generate more simultaneous beams allows this to be done for multiple 
directions. The ones that I know use this technique use flat arrays and 
limit the beams to a 180° arc, but I don't see any reason not to extend 
the technique to 360° or a full orb.


I should state that this is entirely supposition - I have no actual 
knowledge of doing this.


Chris Woolf


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Re: [Sursound] Soundfield by Rode plugin

[David Pickett]

At 10:39 17-12-18, Dave Hunt wrote:

>"The SoundField by RØDE plug-in uses a new time-frequency adaptive
>approach for A to B-format conversion. This complex mathematical
>process means the phase between the A-format channels are aligned
>prior to application of the conversion matrix ­ essentially correcting
>for the non-coincidence of the capsules prior to any further processing."

A "time-frequency adaptive approach"

What?

Unless it works spectacularly well, I would 
suspect the application of snake oil.


David

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Re: [Sursound] Soundfield by Rode plugin

[Dave Hunt]

Hi,

>> There is slightly more description of their A to B-format processing
>> (but not much) in Rode's blog:
>> 
>> 

>From that web page.

"The SoundField by RØDE plug-in uses a new time-frequency adaptive approach for 
A to B-format conversion. This complex mathematical process means the phase 
between the A-format channels are aligned prior to application of the 
conversion matrix – essentially correcting for the non-coincidence of the 
capsules prior to any further processing."

How might they phase/time align the capsules ??

This must indeed be highly complex, as it is frequency dependent (low 
frequencies have smaller phase differences than high frequencies) as well as 
source directionally (across multiple blind sources) dependent.

Ciao,

Dave Hunt



On 16 Dec 2018, at 17:00, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:

> Send Sursound mailing list submissions to
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> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   sursound-ow...@music.vt.edu
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Sursound digest..."
> WHEN REPLYING EDIT THE SUBJECT LINE
> 
> ALSO EDIT THE MESSAGE BODY
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> You are receiving the digest so when replying, please remember to edit your 
> Subject line to that of the original message you are replying to, so it is 
> more specific than "Re: Contents of Sursound-list digest…" the subject should 
> match the post you are replying to.
> 
> Also, please EDIT the quoted post so that it is not the entire digest, but 
> just the post you are replying to - this will keep the archive useful and not 
> polluted with extraneous posts.
> 
> This is the responsibility of digest subscribers. the community and list 
> subscribers care about the integrity of the threads and archives so this is 
> important.Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Soundfield by Rode plugin (Gary Gallagher)
> 
> From: Gary Gallagher 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Soundfield by Rode plugin
> Date: 16 December 2018 04:36:11 GMT
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that reference. I guess we'll just have to wait for more
> information to filter out.
> 
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 01:36 Paul Hodges  wrote:
> 
>> There is slightly more description of their A to B-format processing
>> (but not much) in Rode's blog:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> --
>> Paul Hodges
>> 
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