Re: [Sursound] Pitch(OT)
I am not clear just what the issue is here. C and A are defined by the distance between them; A is not a sharp C. All the notes are equally special, there is nothing otherwise special about middle C, and it is in any case only approximately in the middle for the modern concert piano. For most other instruments it is not in the middle at all. It is is the lowest note on the standard flute, almost the highest note on the bassoon, and by no means comfortable to sing for a bass voice. Notationally it is the point of symmetry between the treble and bass staffs (the current position of the clefs being relatively modern inventions, and relative to modern human vocal ranges); that is the only other sense in which it is in the middle. Of course C was originally Ut - blame Guido D'Arezzo for all that! And, if you really want to go all gooey about frequencies, there is always the Solfeggio movement to play around with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfeggio_frequencies :-) Richard Dobson On 26/04/2013 03:34, Robert Greene wrote: To each his own. I do not care for the creeping up of pitch. Yes of course re equal temperament. But the original subject was about 440 versus middle C-- pretty far off however one figures it. In just intonation (where C= (3/5) 440 if A 440 is the standard) middle C is 264 , it is still pretty far from 440! (which I suppose was the original point). Piano (equal temp.) pitch is a bit disconcerting but there is so much good music for piano one just learns to live with it. Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Pitch(OT)
At 04:50 26-04-13, Richard Dobson wrote: I am not clear just what the issue is here. The issue is that if one is going to be precise about the Physics and Maths discussed here, one should preferably extend that precision to musical considerations. ...there is nothing otherwise special about middle C, and it is in any case only approximately in the middle for the modern concert piano. The name presumably predates the modern piano. As far as organ harpsichord and clavichord keyboards go, Italian and Flemish models from c. 1600 had a compass that placed this C in the middle of the available pitch range. For most other instruments it is not in the middle at all. It is is the lowest note on the standard flute, almost the highest note on the bassoon Have you heard the first note of the Rite of Spring - a C one octave higher? This note is playable by any decent bassoonist today. , and by no means comfortable to sing for a bass voice. Really? Perhaps Russian basses! :-) Notationally it is the point of symmetry between the treble and bass staffs (the current position of the clefs being relatively modern inventions, and relative to modern human vocal ranges); that is the only other sense in which it is in the middle. I was alwas under the impression that it is the C closest to the keyhole (another musical term) ;-) David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Pitch(OT)
On 26/04/2013 15:35, David Pickett wrote: .. For most other instruments it is not in the middle at all. It is is the lowest note on the standard flute, almost the highest note on the bassoon Have you heard the first note of the Rite of Spring - a C one octave higher? This note is playable by any decent bassoonist today. Of course, my mistake. , and by no means comfortable to sing for a bass voice. Really? Perhaps Russian basses! :-) Beethoven 9th asks the choir basses to sing a top D and that I can confirm is decidedly painful at modern concert pitch. At early 19th-C chorton it was hopefully a bit easier. Trained good singers can manage it, but (without going falsetto) it still does not come especially recommended! Richard Dobson ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Pitch(OT)
--On 26 April 2013 16:28 +0100 Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Beethoven 9th asks the choir basses to sing a top D and that I can confirm is decidedly painful at modern concert pitch. At early 19th-C chorton it was hopefully a bit easier. Trained good singers can manage it, but (without going falsetto) it still does not come especially recommended! I would be surprised not to have many top Ds to sing in a normal concert, and probably the odd D#/Eb. E appears sometimes, and the basses had a top F in the last concert I sang, though that is unusual. Paul -- Paul Hodges ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Pitch(OT)
--On 26 April 2013 14:12 -0500 David Pickett d...@fugato.com wrote: Yes, but mostly the bottom note is an A, with only once a G. And when you get to the important fortissimo top Es and Fs, do you leave them to the Tenors? Eh, what do you sing? The tenors have enough on their plates dealing with their As (they had Bbs in the last concert, and the sops had C = Bruckner, Te Deum). At the bottom I expect Gs routinely, and it's an unusual concert that doesn't go lower: F is common, D rare, but we've sung three pieces recently with bottom Cs in. :P Paul -- Paul Hodges ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Pitch(OT)
On 26/04/2013 20:12, David Pickett wrote: At 10:28 26-04-13, Richard Dobson wrote: Beethoven 9th asks the choir basses to sing a top D and that I can confirm is decidedly painful at modern concert pitch. At early 19th-C chorton it was hopefully a bit easier. Trained good singers can manage it, but (without going falsetto) it still does not come especially recommended! Yes, but mostly the bottom note is an A, with only once a G. And when you get to the important fortissimo top Es and Fs, do you leave them to the Tenors? :) David I have heard of choirs which do (and not just between bass/tenor). One trick is to include a few baritones. You could just call it strategic reinforcement. It is generally frecognised that the classic SATB division is a fairly poor representation of the full range of voice ranges. Richard Dobson ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Pitch(OT)
At 14:30 26-04-13, Paul Hodges wrote: --On 26 April 2013 14:12 -0500 David Pickett d...@fugato.com wrote: Yes, but mostly the bottom note is an A, with only once a G. And when you get to the important fortissimo top Es and Fs, do you leave them to the Tenors? Eh, what do you sing? I can get down reliably to an E, and D on an exceptionally good day, but E above middle C is always a scream for me! At the bottom I expect Gs routinely, and it's an unusual concert that doesn't go lower: F is common, D rare, but we've sung three pieces recently with bottom Cs in. :P My point is that the whole tessitura of the Ninth Symphony is high, supporting one or both of two hypotheses: a) that Beethoven didnt give a damn, and b) that Viennese pitch may have been lower in the 1820s, although Bruce Haynes suggested 435 Hz as the lowest likely pitch. David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Pitch(OT)
To each his own. I do not care for the creeping up of pitch. Yes of course re equal temperament. But the original subject was about 440 versus middle C-- pretty far off however one figures it. In just intonation (where C= (3/5) 440 if A 440 is the standard) middle C is 264 , it is still pretty far from 440! (which I suppose was the original point). Piano (equal temp.) pitch is a bit disconcerting but there is so much good music for piano one just learns to live with it. Robert On Thu, 25 Apr 2013, David Pickett wrote: At 20:35 25-04-13, Robert Greene wrote: Not nearer--exactly! 440 A is the standard pitch in the Western world, though orchestra often shade this up a bit. Middle C is around 261.6 Hz I wrote that tongue in cheek... Most orchestras in Europe are considerably sharper and sound to my ears better for it. I tuned my harpsichords to 444Hz or 419Hz. As to middle C, you are assuming equal temperament... David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
