Re: [biofuels-biz] Franchise for the Collection and Processing of WVO into BioDiesel
Marshall: There are no franchise as such that I am aware of. There are several producers and distributors but they are close corporations and keep the production and distribution private. We are interested in producing biodiesel from WVO and animal fats. We are in the process of setting up a small pilot plant in Belgrade, MT to serve our area. The big problem is testing the batches so that they comply with ASTM D 6751 and can be certified by DOT. For that a testing lab is necessary. Independant labs charge as much as $850 per test. If your batch is less than 10,000 gallons, testing by an independant lab is too expensive. We are also setting a lab to test our own batches as well as the batches of other small producers. There are many regulations to know and understand, including enviromental, zoning, taxation, and labeling. Spill control is another matter to add to the list. We would be interested in working with other small producers, primarily on the lab test issues and certification issues. In time, we would probably form a co-op for the purpose of lab testing. Testing is the key to commercial production and sales. We have also considered establishing small plants on a city-by-city basis. For this, we would need to create a limited partnership with a local person so that we can control quality through testing. The local partner would pickup the WVO and animal fats, process it per our cookbook, send samples of each batch to us for testing which would be done before the batch could be sold. We would work out a fair deal so that the local producer makes good money as do we for providing the quality control, regulatory relationships and legal and accounting servies within the partnership context. If you are interesting, send us an email to: GreenOxyDiesel, attn: Jim Miller to [EMAIL PROTECTED] We are in the process of setting up our website. We are a startup and are looking for ethical and compentent partners in Northwestern United States. Regards, Jim Miller marshallepler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a business franchise available that centers on the collection and processing of waste vegetable oil into the processing and distribution of biodiesel fuels and glycerein byproducts? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] THE GRID
I have started on an article on THE GRID and wanted to share the following introduction with you all, to maybe get valuable comments before I get to the technics of it. THE GRID Electricity grids could be one of the most effective tools in solving energy crises. It could not only support the traditional distribution function, but could also support a significant diversified energy generation. It is a powerful ready for use public service technology and is only limited by greed and commercial interests. It is often connecting and distributing to millions of energy users, but could equally well connect millions of small energy producers. Every connected energy consumer can also be a small energy producer. It is often in focus for its peak demand sensitivity, but have the potential to be a solution of peak demands rather than the problem. The reason why this is not already utilized is not the flow of energy, but the flow of money. The major modernization needs of the grid is maybe more to find in its political structure than technical. The grid is not only a technical structure, but also a structure that could be comparable to the function of a central national bank in a financial system. The grid could easy be comparable to the function of the money supply system in an economy, too important to leave in the hands of commercial and political interests. It is too powerful to unnecessary exposure to greed and corruption, it cannot be avoided, but should be minimized. Hakan ** If you want to take a look on a project that is very close to my heart, go to: http://energysavingnow.com/ http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site http://playa.nu/ Our small rental activities ** No flag is large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people -- Howard Zinn Nobody grows old merely by living a number of years. We grow old by deserting our ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm wrinkles the soul. - Samuel Ullman Democracy is the worst possible system, except for all the others. - Churchill Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Off topic. Mechanical help
wow, didn't know that so much oil could be sucked up that little hose! the valve seals do NOT seal compression in the cylinders. the valves themselves should do that. the more correct name is valve stem seal, and they seal all the oil that's up on top of the head under the valve cover from leaking and going down the stem of the valve and from there either into the intake or exhaust, whichever valve it happens to be. maybe you checked the oil too soon after it was running - not giving it time to drain back to the pan for an accurate reading? again - good luck - this one doesn't sound fun. erik --- Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aidan: I think if you had no seals, it would not have fired up - no compression. You say it ran ok on the first go, then you shut it off and topped up the fluid levelsany chance you overfilled the crankcase, getting a false reading from the warm engine? Check the oil level again and see. Too much oil in the crankcase, and it might have been forced into the combustion chamber, causing the diesel to run on the oil (runaway), which caused more compression the excess oil, more oil forced into the combustion chamber, and so on. Check the oil level cold. You've burned some up and otherwise sent it away now, so it might be back to max...but may have been too high. If it checks out as being ok, cold, then maybe try it once more, but be ready to shut it down instantly -*** and be ready to do so by cutting off its supply of AIR, as your backup plan, in case it tries, successfully, to run on engine oil from some other source than the above, and you are not so lucky this time having the fuel cutoff solenoid get the thing stopped. I do not know the best thing to use to cut off air supply, but DO plan in advance to be able to do so before you start it again. I think a big, thick towel bunched up and ready to jam over the air intake would do it, but perhaps other list members can help on that. A diesel runaway is a scary thing. Good thing you were able to get it shut down quickly and it did not get totally out of control, in which case you've have ended up rebuilding it again or replacing it, after you'd run for cover, and after it (maybe) destroyed itself after burning up its own oil. RE: comment about not crank over easily by hand...a diesel with good compression (new rings, all warmed up, and lots of oil everywhere!) would not be easy to crank by hand in any case, would it? Good luck Edward Beggs On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 07:23 AM, A Wilkins wrote: Hello, I have mechanical question which I hope someone in the group can help me with. Yesterday evening I finished rebuilding my 90 jetta diesel. I had the head rebuilt, replaced the connecting rod bearings, rings and ridge reamed the cylinders. Everything went together nicely. I started the car and it puffed a little smoke as it ran, I ran it for about 2 min. and shut it down to check the oil and coolant levels. I toped them up and started the car once more. This time the car ran for about 1 min. then it raised it's rpm and started to smoke like a bugger. I immediately shut the car off. It appeared that massive amounts of oil was entering the exhaust pipe. The engine would not crank over easily (by hand). It sounded like there was a lot of oil in the cylinders. This was 10:00 pm. At this point I was very concerned and upset. I tore the engine down (again) and removed the head. Just as I had suspected there was a lot of oil in the cylinder(s). I was surprised to see that there was oil in all the cylinders. What I would like to know: is it possible that the shop which rebuilt the head forgot to put in some valve seals? would this cause the cylinders to flood? I can not think of anywhere else that the oil could come from. The head gasket was seated perfect around the cylinders ( imprint on head ). I would appreciate any advice as I am now very disappointed. I was planning on converting to SVO after a week of running din-diesel. :( Thank you, Aidan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Re: [biofuel] small diesel engines made in US for passenger cars?
Ryan Morgan, Aerials Express said: I would expect to see the first moves from Chrysler, especially now that they have merged with Mercedes Benz. The Jeep Liberty, for example, will be available soon with a diesel here in the U.S.. Look at the new Dodge van: http://www.dodge.com/sprinter/index.html?context=sprinter-indextype=left Or the same vehicle with a different name plate: http://www.daimlerchrysler-vans.com/index.html Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] A third thread falling into this pattern?? Was: Two threads that have something in common??
I was gonna add something ... but ... nevermind. It seem you guys got the point of what I was trying to get at. The whole point of the Powers That Be seems to be falling into a pattern of FORRRCINNG us into an unquittable HEROIN habit ... just to sit back and let the (drug) money roll in. Kinda like AMWAY. They always glorify the Diamond Direct guy at the top of pyramid sitting back in the Bahamas ... sipping his lemonade. All the while having his checking account click up a million bucks every hour. WHAT THEY DON'T TELL YOU is that the REASON that it does ... is because all the poor souls in his downline ... slave-ing away ... desparately trying to make single-sales. To me, the picture is rapidly degrading into nothing more than a global AMWAY. Whether with individuals, companies, or countries. It's all about positioning oneself into a Diamond Direct. And having the residual income that never ends. Curtis P.S. BTW, the third thread is found at the bottom of my post. To insure future loans . YEAH RIGHT you mean to insure a never ending river of INTEREST payments. There's that drug money while sipping your iced tea again!! (LOL) - Make her feel special this coming holiday season with flowers www.flowerson55.com - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now, on this theme, one thing about EVs, that I've read from some (not all) of the lucky few who were able to buy them, or those who have been able to build them: if-when you can install home electricity generation, such as solar panels or wind or micro hydro, it's an eye-opener. I mean, at that point, you need the oil companies for *nothing* and you need the electricity companies for nothing except to supplement your home generation or, if you have enough, then to supply you with electric fuel if you're on the road. To be sure, this is much different than some of the ways of biofuelers, because it involves super-expensive solar panels and lot of investment and what-not, and you have to have the roof or backyard space, or perhaps the space for a windmill, or whatever. But as Curtis points out, there is a common theme here, yes. --THE THIRD THREAD I'M REFERRING TO-- From: Bob Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] For an interesting read on why a country would sell off its water supply, check out Greg Palast's book, 'The Best Democracy Money Can Buy'. Basically the world bank or International Monetary Fund, forces countries to sell assets to raise capital to repay debts, to ensure future loans. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Winter (bio)additive for BD
Hello All, The winter is at the door. We are looking for information of different bioadditives which can be used with BD in order for BD to be used at lower temp«s. What are the commercial guys using in order to lower the temp range for BD ? Regads from - 6 ¡C Finland, Tomas Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hybrid Electric Vehicles
I've been looking about the Internet at the new HEVs and have come across these sites, which I don't recall being mentioned recently on this list. I felt they make an interesting read. http://www.microturbine.com/caseStudies/hevCase1.asp Use of a microturbine for buses in an HEV application. Burning either diesel or CNG. There are a lot of applications mentioned for these turbines with mention of advantages over ICEs relative to noise, exhaust polution, maintenance, etc. http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/defense/technology%7Eoverview.cfm Here is a heavy truck application of an HEV system. What interested me about this was the use of 'ultracapacitors' instead of batteries for energy storage. There has been discussion in the past on this list of the problems associated with batteries and their ultimate disposal. This would appear to obviate much or all of this problem. Regards, Derek From a friend of mine (and from now yours too...): 1. The importance of presurization. in the making process and for what ??. Why use 700 pascals (or 0,7 bars)???. 2. The big plants, use a depuration system with water in cascada and sulphuric acid, why and how ???. 3. When one offers in the european union a biodiesel BD20, does it follow EN950 Diesel standard ???. 4. Which machine use to destille methanol in the plant and what porcentaje one misses in the reaction ??.- 5. The concept of esterification ( grease alcohols) before transesterification (in some plants). Thanks in advance. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: svo emissions
Keith, Edward, Murdoch, and the world, I too have found the base of knowledge and tests on biofuels to be quite incomplete. While the emissions analyzers that are used for CA smog tests sell used for around 2000$US, I have yet to find a reliable citation for the emissions of striaght ethanol (or at least a formula that contains no fossil fuel products) or straight vegetable oil. The political situation being as it is, it appears that it is up to us to figure out what the 'truth' about biofuel emissions is, regardless of its subjectivity. We need to develop basis for comparing fuels through gassroots means, with critical attention payed to the fuels entire life cycle, and systems of production and comsumption. I guess from what I have done and read, it seems fair to say that the big gains are in PM (soot) at about 50% reduction, no sulfur of course, no CO2 (life cycle), and low to no PAH's. NOx at baseline, perhaps a little over, HC up and down, nothing really significant, but certainly different speciation than diesel. Do you have these statistics in ppm? I just downloaded your thesis and it looks very involved. Thanks for your hard work on this subject! What did the story cite as source, Dave? Anything? The story (which I can't find online) is rather brief and does not capture any of the technical aspects, but attempts to portray the local northern/central california 'culture' around this illegal fuel. As for citation, her sources remained secret given the nature of the project that was described (SVO storage). Dave Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] THE GRID
I have started on an article on THE GRID and wanted to share the following introduction with you all, to maybe get valuable comments before I get to the technics of it. THE GRID Electricity grids could be one of the most effective tools in solving energy crises. It could not only support the traditional distribution function, but could also support a significant diversified energy generation. It is a powerful ready for use public service technology and is only limited by greed and commercial interests. It is often connecting and distributing to millions of energy users, but could equally well connect millions of small energy producers. Every connected energy consumer can also be a small energy producer. It is often in focus for its peak demand sensitivity, but have the potential to be a solution of peak demands rather than the problem. The reason why this is not already utilized is not the flow of energy, but the flow of money. The major modernization needs of the grid is maybe more to find in its political structure than technical. The grid is not only a technical structure, but also a structure that could be comparable to the function of a central national bank in a financial system. The grid could easy be comparable to the function of the money supply system in an economy, too important to leave in the hands of commercial and political interests. It is too powerful to unnecessary exposure to greed and corruption, it cannot be avoided, but should be minimized. Hakan ** If you want to take a look on a project that is very close to my heart, go to: http://energysavingnow.com/ http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site http://playa.nu/ Our small rental activities ** No flag is large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people -- Howard Zinn Nobody grows old merely by living a number of years. We grow old by deserting our ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm wrinkles the soul. - Samuel Ullman Democracy is the worst possible system, except for all the others. - Churchill Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: [renewable-energy] News from Sacramento
I am not familiar with the tax structure for road infrastructure funding in California or the U.S. in general. I have some knowledge of how it is done in Canada. Road taxes are collected on fuel sold at the pump. Only federal and provincial governments have the authority to collect these taxes. The taxes collected are assigned to general revenue - there is no specific road maintenance tax account at either level of government. So these taxes go into the same general tax fund that pays for health care and environmental remediation. The majority of roads in Canada are not funded or maintained by the federal or provincial governments - they are built and maintained by municipal or county authorities. These governments do not have direct access to the road taxes collected on fuel. Instead, the tax base used to pay for the majority of road work in Canada are paid out of property taxes. So, in this situation, I see no difficulty in leaving EVs exempt from road taxes on liquid fuels. In reality, EV owners pay for the maintenance of local roads (the great majority of miles of road surface) via their property taxes. These roads not only provide a place to put our EVs, but also permit services to be provided (ambulance, fire, police, electricity, water, sewage, telephone, heating fuels, other deliveries). Given that road taxes are used to fund many federal and provincial programs, including environmental remediation, fossil fuel industry subsidies, health care, noise abatement projects, air quality monitoring, etc, I don't see a big problem with exempting EVs from these taxes as they make less demands on such programs than do vehicles powered by fossil fuels. Are there figures available for the U.S. situation showing how much money is collected as road taxes on fuel sales by each level of government, and how much each authority actually spends on the building and maintenance of roads? I don't doubt that government is addicted to fuel taxes. I just wonder if all the taxes collected from motor fuel sales actually end up servicing automotive traffic. If not, perhaps the issue of collecting taxes for road maintenance for vehicles powered by non-polluting energy sources is less critical. If the issue really is road maintenance, do you propose to charge appropriate amounts for very heavy trucks? I understand a loaded 18-wheeler does something like 100 times as much road damage as a sub-compact car per mile travelled. Big rigs don't consume 100 times as much fuel per mile, so should there be a road damage surcharge? Should bicycles be charged some sort of road maintenance fee, as they can also use roads? I suspect there are many more questions to be asked if we are looking for a balanced approach to paying for road construction and maintenance, beyond how to tax EVs. Darryl McMahon To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Copies to: biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date sent: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject:[renewable-energy] News from Sacramento The news I just received by phone from Sacramento is about as I expected. After looking all over his area, (tax entity), he found that although there has been some conversation in reguard to the electric vehicle, NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE He also stated that to his knowledge NOTHING IS IN THE WORKS !!! This fellow, who wishes at this time to remain anonymous, seemed very knowledgable in both tax laws and EV'S. He also seemed truthful and more than willing to take input from the outside. I asked him If he were a Federal representative dealing with manufacturers and had to deal with this electric vehicle situation and knowing well that the tax system is not ready to deal with this problem in the collection of use taxes; would you find some kind of excuse to put this electric plug-in and EV in a hold pattern? He answered; my bosses would demand it. His reasoning was sound; if they got 10 million EV'S out there without the ability to collect their road taxes, it would turn into a problem that we could not solve. Ultimately, the public would lose if for no other reason than that of not having any money to fix the roads or build new ones. There would also be flack from the public over the you don't have to pay and I do problems that he doesn't want to hear about. I believe that this problem alone is why you can't get a plug-in or an EV today. Just as I thought. There might be more behind this than I can see but I doubt it. I will be sending him some of the data that I think he can use to make this happen and maybe he will come out in the open and discuss it with us in the near future. He also stated that things should be started with this issue in Sacramento. He said how will we get the news out? I told
[biofuel] Re: News from Sacramento
I also think that part of the yearly registration fee should be counted as a road tax, per car. This could be made to be dependent on both yearly mileage and weight, both of which bear on one's damage to the roads and use of them. However, a flat fee could be counted as well. There is no need to make this the only tax on vehicles. At present we already pay diverse taxes on fuels and vehicles, including yearly registration fees and various taxes at the pump. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:46:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: Your proposal will be included in the data I send them. For your information; Road taxes, (use taxes as they are sometimes called),are a combination of Federal excise taxes, State road taxes, and in California sales tax on the product + road taxes which amount to about 50 cents per gallon. Some States like Oregon do not have a sales tax but apply the same road taxes to fuel used on the highways and roads of the US. This is true in the entire 50 States and varies very little between the States. The Federal portion is fixed; the State portion varies slightly from State to State. For purposes of your flat tax idea based on 12,000 miles per year usage; If a vehicle got 30mpg and drove 12,000 miles per year, this vehicle would pay $200.00 per year in use taxes if based in California. If this vehicle were a hybrid, this hybrid would pay the flat tax plus existing taxes already in Gasoline which would make the tax inequitable in this case if he used gasoline for some or all of his usage. That is unfair to that individual; thus the watthour meter suggestion. The EV would be OK with the flat tax as his fair share would be reasonable based on your thought of 12,000 miles per year. One advantage of the watthour meter is that reguardless of where the vehicle was fueled, the tax would be collected thus eliminating cheating as far as the road taxes are concerned reguardless of HYBRID or EV status. It also eliminates double taxation in reguard to the HYBRID which is a fairer approach to the issue. Every vehicle in California is required to be examined for SMOG every 2 years; thus the meter reader is already in place. In California, the $30.000 bond for insurance is a fact of life here as well. Most people though do not use it as you suggested. Bob ntsl532 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is my response to the above comment. I would just like to reiterate my original proposal that EV owners pay a flat rate for road use taxes at the DMV based on an ICE vehicle of EV's weight going 12,000 miles , which I heard is the average distance the average person drives in one year. I realize that the proposal of having a meter to measure kWh used is actually a more fair and equitable proposal to the governamnet, but government typically looks for simplicity in legislation. Example: In SC where I live, few people realize that you can avoid paing car insurance by simply posting a $30,000 bond with the DMV In Columbia, SC to show you have the means to pay for an accident. Theoretically one should be able to simply prove they have the finacial means to cover an accident if they do not have insurance. This would be the most equitable way to approach this issue, but lawmakers want something simple and easy to enforce. Having to review an individuals's fiancial statements would become overly complex, as would having the DMV check meters on kWh Meters on a DMV, which could easily be tampered with. Therefore I think the flat tax rate for EV owners would be the best. That is my proposal. By the way, does anyone know what the typical driver pays in use taxes per year? How much is it on a gallon of gasoline? I assume since the tax is federal, it is the same amount all over the US. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The news I just received by phone from Sacramento is about as I expected. After looking all over his area, (tax entity), he found that although there has been some conversation in reguard to the electric vehicle, NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE He also stated that to his knowledge NOTHING IS IN THE WORKS !!! clip - Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/
Re: [biofuel] small diesel engines made in US for passenger cars?
I noted somewhere that Feel Good Cars offered a diesel ZENN in Europe. Can anyone confirm this? James Slayden On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, murdoch wrote: We discussed some of the very few diesel options out there available to the U.S. consumers buying passenger cars (such as the VW TDI). As we project some increase in US consumers driving diesels (such as when Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel becomes more available) I was wondering as to how it's going to be accomplished for more manufacturers to offer diesel passenger vehicles. Of the U.S. manufacturers, are there any who have maintained production or any expertise in this area? Even some of their pickup truck diesel capabilities seem to be imported (Isuzu-manufactured engines in GM trucks, or just Isuzu technology contributions?). There do seem to be respectable diesel-pickup truck offerings from various manufacturers. I don't know any of the answers to these matters just wondering a few things. We have discussed that diesel engines were projected into the PNGV prototypes, but those prototypes seem to have been mothballed with such extreme prejudice that I don't know what could be produced within the next few years. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] small diesel engines made in US for passenger cars?
10-20 miles?! I like the figures on CalCars that dictate 30-60 . Now that would have me instantly interested! James Slayden On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, murdoch wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:34:32 -0700, you wrote: I would expect to see the first moves from Chrysler, especially now that they have merged with Mercedes Benz. The Jeep Liberty, for example, will be available soon with a diesel here in the U.S.. Since most of the recent techno-car-babble revolves around hybrids, and Toyota has a clear advantage, I wouldn't be surprised to see Chrysler enter the market with a diesel hybrid. Such a move would undoubtedly make people take notice, especially if such a vehicle could be made to go 80 miles on a gallon...a whopping 30 more than a gasoline hybrid. We can all hope, right? :) Ryan Absolutely. That would be awesome. And a grid-chargeable diesel-hybrid, operable in EV-only mode for 10 or 20 miles... man-oh-man. You'd have the best of many worlds. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
I think that the beauty of the Ovonic system is that it uses process heat to release the H2 from the storage tanks. The heat generated either from an H2 ICE or a FC could also help with this: http://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htm My gut tells me that although pressurized lightweight tanks are fairly safe these days (see NGV lightweight vehicle tanks), there is what I call the Hindenburg perception of gaseous hydrogen storage, even though that was proven a falsity. Liquid H2 storage is too difficult to implement and maintain so that will be weeded out fairly quickly. Another plus of the metal-hydride storage is the higher energy density. That will also be a factor in what form H2 storage will occur in vehicles. James Slayden On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan At 01:51 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: This article assumes onboard pressurized storage. It should at least mention the future possibility of Liquid H2 (such as BMW has been working on) or metal hydride storage) such as Ovonic seems to have implemented with a modified Prius: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/ 31020/dem017_1.html As always, I'm not advocating these solutions, just mentioning them. I tend to think a chemical solution (such as carrying H2 in molecules of C2H5OH) will continue to be the solution of choice for many. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:37:59 +0200, you wrote: Although I can see large advantages in hydrogen as storage in stationary power generation and military mobile applications, I see that it is going to take a long time before we see the hydrogen economy for propelling transport in general. Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles http://energy.saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy.sav ing.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtml Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles By mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Univ of Chicago, http://mb-soft.com/public2/index.htmlhttp://mb-soft.com/public2/index.htmlI dex of Public Service Pages. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hybrid Electric Vehicles
Hi Derek, how goes? Thanks for the links. I've been looking about the Internet at the new HEVs and have come across these sites, which I don't recall being mentioned recently on this list. I felt they make an interesting read. http://www.microturbine.com/caseStudies/hevCase1.asp Use of a microturbine for buses in an HEV application. Burning either diesel or CNG. There are a lot of applications mentioned for these turbines with mention of advantages over ICEs relative to noise, exhaust polution, maintenance, etc. http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/defense/technology%7Eoverview.cfm Here is a heavy truck application of an HEV system. What interested me about this was the use of 'ultracapacitors' instead of batteries for energy storage. There has been discussion in the past on this list of the problems associated with batteries and their ultimate disposal. This would appear to obviate much or all of this problem. Kirk sent me this a couple of days ago: I check in on them from time to time to see if they are marketing yet. Could revolutionize electric vehicles. Kirk http://www.skeleton-technologies.com/supcap6.htm It's been discussed before, here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=19729list=biofuelrelated=1 Best wishes Keith Regards, Derek Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: svo emissions
If a group of activists does enter into such a project, then I'd say: keep the life-cycle emissions analysis separate from the simple emissions analysis. It is not fair to SVO to make the emissions tests on them harder than the emissions tests that are performed for other fuels (or to people donating their time, to make the tess more consuming than they need to be). I'm not saying it's irrelevant to analyze and collect data on all emissions related to production and consumption of the fuel, but for purposes of addressing the government mandates for emissions data, which apparently will not be done by anyone soon enough unless volunteers collaborate to do it, do they really mandate the full life-cycle data, or just more simple data about emissions at the point of exhaust (and perhaps evaporations at the point of fueling?) On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:32:39 -, you wrote: Keith, Edward, Murdoch, and the world, I too have found the base of knowledge and tests on biofuels to be quite incomplete. While the emissions analyzers that are used for CA smog tests sell used for around 2000$US, I have yet to find a reliable citation for the emissions of striaght ethanol (or at least a formula that contains no fossil fuel products) or straight vegetable oil. The political situation being as it is, it appears that it is up to us to figure out what the 'truth' about biofuel emissions is, regardless of its subjectivity. We need to develop basis for comparing fuels through gassroots means, with critical attention payed to the fuels entire life cycle, and systems of production and comsumption. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
James, I agree with you on some details, but the big picture remains and maybe you can give input on that, 1. Primary energy sources. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. 2. Lightweight pressurized tanks. At 1500 psi, the volume problem is the same approx. 15 times bigger than a gasoline tank. 3. Oil NG depletion. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. 4. If we rapidly needed a replacement fuel for the existing cars, pure hydrogen is not suitable, because of the flame speed. I have a terrible feeling that we are loosing ourselves in this hydrogen for cars question, which is best taken care of by biofuels in short term. Battery technologies for EVs are improving and beat Hydrogen in volume and at much better efficiency, if we include the fuel cell. Hydrogen have a very long way to go to come even close biodiesel hybrids. This in efficiency, but also in pollution if the primary source is considered. Solar generated hydrogen is cleaner, but then the solar/battery is much more efficient. The problem is not the possible big future development and the answers we are seeking for hydrogen. If we should avoid major crises within the next 10 years, efficient cars and alternative fuels must be delivered yesterday. Not to talk of the general energy efficiency that are needed. The current oil reserves seems to be overstated for political reasons and if it is so, the largest energy crises in human history is just around the corner. Guess which nation that will have the largest problem? If we started to produce solar panels en mass and build Nuclear Power immediately, or even drill as much as we can, the crises is still there. Hakan At 06:53 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: I think that the beauty of the Ovonic system is that it uses process heat to release the H2 from the storage tanks. The heat generated either from an H2 ICE or a FC could also help with this: http://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htmhttp://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htm My gut tells me that although pressurized lightweight tanks are fairly safe these days (see NGV lightweight vehicle tanks), there is what I call the Hindenburg perception of gaseous hydrogen storage, even though that was proven a falsity. Liquid H2 storage is too difficult to implement and maintain so that will be weeded out fairly quickly. Another plus of the metal-hydride storage is the higher energy density. That will also be a factor in what form H2 storage will occur in vehicles. James Slayden On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan At 01:51 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: This article assumes onboard pressurized storage. It should at least mention the future possibility of Liquid H2 (such as BMW has been working on) or metal hydride storage) such as Ovonic seems to have implemented with a modified Prius: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com /prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/ 31020/dem017_1.html As always, I'm not advocating these solutions, just mentioning them. I tend to think a chemical solution (such as carrying H2 in molecules of C2H5OH) will continue to be the solution of choice for many. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:37:59 +0200, you wrote: Although I can see large advantages in hydrogen as storage in stationary power generation and military mobile applications, I see that it is going to take a long time before we see the hydrogen economy for propelling transport in general. Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles http://energy.saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy. saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy.sav ing.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtml Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles By mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Univ of Chicago,
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:40:08 +0200, you wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. Agreed. However, I guess I meant my way of looking at it to cause folks to sort of think twice. I mean, if we see methanol a liquid fuel worth considering for fuel cells (as I think Mercedes has experimented with for example), we see that it's not necessary to go through all that energy conversion you just make the methanol. Then you can use it in an engine. You have then arguably carried H2 on board and used it, in a way. Ok, so if the methanol is reformed and then used in a fuel cell, there might be some loss of energy, but I'm just pointing out that in a way we already get H2 on board cars, and to some extent it's just a matter of recognizing that fact. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
MM, I have not excluded methanol or even the more interesting ethanol in fuel cells. It is energy sources and it looks like an interesting development. Then we are back to more reasonable evaluations about efficiency etc., which are bound to come up. I am fully open to the fuel cell technology, which a think is the more tangible development advances in this. I am also for stationary hydrogen use in storage technologies for power generation etc. where large and safe lower pressure storages can be used. Techniques that we are able to do and manage with security. That is exiting, maybe economical and a lot safer. It would for sure be needed. Hakan At 04:11 AM 10/22/2003, you wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:40:08 +0200, you wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. Agreed. However, I guess I meant my way of looking at it to cause folks to sort of think twice. I mean, if we see methanol a liquid fuel worth considering for fuel cells (as I think Mercedes has experimented with for example), we see that it's not necessary to go through all that energy conversion you just make the methanol. Then you can use it in an engine. You have then arguably carried H2 on board and used it, in a way. Ok, so if the methanol is reformed and then used in a fuel cell, there might be some loss of energy, but I'm just pointing out that in a way we already get H2 on board cars, and to some extent it's just a matter of recognizing that fact. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
