Re: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions
Jan, Since when are esterifications "often incomplete?" And since when is a "good conversion" achieved necessarily through base catalysis? It's relatively simple to take 100% FFAs and achieve a "100% yield" of esters. Industry does it daily from soap stock. Let people satisfy their own curiosities rather than scaring them off paths that many have already taken..., and succeeded at one might add. Todd Swearingen Jan Warnqvist wrote: >Hello Jim, >the sensible thing is to spending time and money producing BD from a cheap >feedstock, not the other way around. >Acid esterifications are often incomplete, and I assume that oils and fats >with max 20% FFA are worth while bothering about, unless you are willing to >do several acid esterification steps and draining off the produced water >after each step.But in order to have a good conversion into BD, you finally >have to run the alkaline transesterification step , also for neutralization. >Good luck to you ! >Jan Warnqvist >AGERATEC AB > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >+ 46 554 201 89 >+46 70 499 38 45 >- Original Message - >From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:26 AM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions > > > > >>Thanks Jan, >>If I had developed a method to separate FFA's from base stock without >>using chemicals or water say in the range of 95% separation in WVO >>(still a work in progress but hopeful results) so that I could React the >>Low FFA's in a Base method then would it be feasible to react the High >>FFA's In a separate Acid reaction? Or what problems would I encounter >>like the water problem you noted below? Would the FFA's be worth the >>trouble? >> >>Thanks Jim >> >>Jan Warnqvist wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hello Jim, >>>when using the acid esterification, you will have methyl esters, >>> >>> >unreacted > > >>>oil, sulphate ions, oxonium ions and - water. >>>Proceeding to the base step you will create more methyl esters, potassium >>> >>> >or > > >>>sodium soaps, maybe a little unreacted oil or partially reacted oil, >>>potassium or sodium sulphates and - even more water. >>>This method works fine if the water content can be kept on a reasonable >>>level. Please note that the higher the initial FFA level, the more water >>>will be produced. >>>With best regards >>>Jan >>>Jan Warnqvist >>>AGERATEC AB >>> >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>>+ 46 554 201 89 >>>+46 70 499 38 45 >>>- Original Message - >>>From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>To: "BIO" >>>Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:01 AM >>>Subject: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have decided to try the acid/base method in small test batches as I have some High FFA (4ml) oil I would like to process. Since September I have gone to great lengths to get repeatability and accuracy in all my work with Biodiesel. I have read and re-read JtF and I know that I will no doubt read it several more times if I get stumped. I would like to start with fully understanding the process first. Before I start: Can you use KOH with the Acid Base method? It might be obvious, but I did not see it in the recipe as a substitution. When the acid gets done with Estrification properly then the mix that is left is basically an oil (triglycerides) , Methanol, and Sulfur ions ? Or did I miss something? When the Methoxil is added the Sulfur gets combined with the Sodium ions, (right?) how does this affect the reaction? Any good experienced information would be helpful, Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>messages): >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>>___ >>>Biofuel mailing list >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>> >>> >messages): > > >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>___ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> >> >messages): > > >>http://www.mail-archive
[Biofuel] Pataki Wants Drivers to Fill Up With Ethanol or Biodiesel
January 7, 2006 Pataki Wants Drivers to Fill Up With Ethanol or Biodiesel By DANNY HAKIM ALBANY, Jan. 6 - Some 200,000 New Yorkers own vehicles that can run on corn-based ethanol instead of gasoline. But many have no idea that their Ford Explorers, Chevy Impalas or Nissan Titans can use this type of fuel, which some view as a way to liberate Americans from Middle Eastern oil. In any case, the closest station carrying ethanol is in Ottawa, as the Northeast is the one region of the United States that uniformly does not offer ethanol to the public. But Gov. George E. Pataki wants to change that and make ethanol and biodiesel, two controversial alternative fuels, available in the 27 service areas on the New York State Thruway and in 100 more stations throughout the state as early as this year, in a first small step toward reducing the state's petroleum consumption. The governor is also proposing incentives to bring refineries that produce ethanol into the state. Costs and further details of the plan, which Mr. Pataki first sketched out in his State of the State address on Wednesday, will not be disclosed until he makes his budget proposal later this month. If the plan is approved by the Legislature, it will give New Yorkers one of the nation's most diverse ranges of fuel choices. Only Minnesota offers an ethanol-rich blend known as E85 at more than 100 stations. Likewise, biodiesel is offered at only a few hundred of the nation's roughly 180,000 stations. Both fuels can be made from a variety of crops, trees and plant material, and even used grease from fast-food outlets in the case of biodiesel. Ethanol, or grain alcohol, is already mixed with gasoline sold in the New York metropolitan area, but in amounts of about 10 percent. By contrast, E85, as its name suggests, is 85 percent ethanol. Using it is not far-fetched. In Brazil, ethanol made from sugar cane has become a formidable competitor to gasoline. Biodiesel is more commonly sold as B20, a blend of 20 percent biodiesel, with the rest conventional diesel fuel. While ethanol smells like moonshine, a car with biodiesel can smell like cooking French fries through a tailpipe. Both fuels have their share of skeptics and believers. Willie Nelson, for instance, sells his own brand of B20 known as BioWillie and pitches it as an alternative to consuming fuel from the Middle East. The governor's plan comes after the oil price shocks of the last year and frustration with automakers for suing New York for adopting California's greenhouse gas emissions standards for cars. The plan also includes incentives to help the state modify its hybrid-electric vehicles so that the cars can be plugged into stationary outlets to enable them to use even more electricity than fuel, a practice discouraged by the auto industry. "Are we supposed to sit around and wait for Detroit to do these things?" said Charles G. Fox, a deputy secretary to Mr. Pataki who oversees energy issues, in an interview on Friday. Part of the plan, he said, was aimed at promoting the use of alternative fuels that can be used right away, as opposed to more futuristic fuels like hydrogen. Biodiesel can run in any diesel engine, and several million cars and trucks on the road nationwide can use E85. Criticism of the governor has come from several sides. Peter Iwanowicz, a director of environmental health for the American Lung Association of New York, said the environmental benefits of the two fuels were mixed. "Ethanol increases ozone formation, which is obviously harmful for people with lung disease, and biodiesel increases emissions of nitrogen oxide," he said. But a variety of research suggests that the fuels can be environmentally beneficial, depending on how they are produced. Mr. Pataki has been criticized for promoting ethanol because it is made from corn grown in states that include Iowa, which he has been visiting recently to gauge support for a possible presidential run. But even the governor's advisers say that making ethanol from corn is a bad idea and that they prefer using wood or certain kinds of grass. Environmentalists have largely denounced making ethanol-capable vehicles, calling that a boondoggle intended for the agriculture lobby and Detroit. When automakers build cars and trucks that can use ethanol, called flex-fuel vehicles, they earn credits that make it easier to meet fuel-economy regulations, in turn giving them leeway to build more gas-guzzlers. Automakers have also not even told many customers that they own vehicles with such a capability, but Mr. Fox said New York might do so by consulting state records. Consumers can learn if they own one by examining their vehicle identification number as described at www.e85fuel.com. Only about 400 stations nationwide sell E85, and none of them are in the Northeast. On Friday, a gallon of E85 was selling for $1.73 - in part because of subsidies - at a station in Akron,
Re: [Biofuel] quality test questions
Wow, great info thanks for the cookbook type info that really helped me see how you did this. A while back I read your mentioning about this stirrer - heater. I could not find it on your site and didn't have time so I refrained from asking more details. Now this finds me at the right time and with the type of directions that I really like. Gary - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] quality test questions Hi Darryl;Sorry for the confusion. The point is that a good reaction will leave you with a good separation between the esters (fuel) and everything else which makes up the 'glycerin cocktail', and when water is introduced, there should be next to no third layer but the absolute thickness of the layer, if you see one, will depend on the dimensions of the container, all other factors being equal. As to the previous statements you made about inconsistent information on how to do the process, my best advice is to follow explicitly the instructions on the J2F website starting from the begining and you will do just fine.In my own journey of discovery I learned this. You cannot afford to cut corners. Don't be tempted to use less than accurate measures and think that it will be alright. There is no cheating. I found that my success depended a lot on how careful I was with the titration step. Also I found that when the 0.1% base solution was added there was a tendancy for some oil to drop out and I think this affected my accuracy. I built a stirrer to keep the liquid in the test tube very well agitated during the titration and this helped a lot as I could tell by the consistency when I repeated the titration several times. If you want a description of how to make a very low cost titration kit check my website at http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/Titrator.html Get a pipette marked in 0.1ml increments and a control bulb and it will make things easy and very accurate, for an investment of about 30 bucks.Another huge factor for me in getting complete reactions once I scaled up from the one liter size was the discovery that the methoxide had to be injected into the inlet of the mixing pump. I had tried other methods of introducing the methoxide which were not very successful. Methoxide and oil do not mix easily. By introducing the methoxide at the pump inlet, the pump impeller ensured vigorous mixing which made a huge difference for me. With hindsight the instructions do say that thorough mixing is of critical importance but the point is I thought that recirculation alone would be enough to do the job and clearly it wasn't with my setup. If you stick to what the instructions tell you it will work. Same goes for the quality tests. If you get quick separation and do not develop a third layer and the water stays clear you have good fuel. This is subjective and the absolute time required for the settling will vary depending on the severity of the agitation, but overall the statement holds. So as to your last question if after 3 or 4 washes your water is coming out clear then it sounds great. Perhaps what you saw as a 5 cm layer was a mixture of water and oil due to excessive agitation which just took a little longer to settle. Did you shake for more than ten seconds?JoeDarryl West wrote: I have found this an interesting discussion, which has left me a little more confused about what I need to do. I am gathering the take home message from my original question is that the Dr Peppers technique might not be the best one and that I need to look more at my over all process to reduce the amount of unprocessed materials. Could you guys maybe suggest what are the best measurements (recipes) to use to try and achieve a nearly complete reaction with virgin oil. I am very new to this and am really just looking to get it right before trying to scale it all up, but I am finding that there is some much information out there and a lot of it seems to be inconsistent with other things that I read. Also the container that I did the quality wash was a 250ml soda bottle. I went back and had a look at it again yesterday and the 5cm layer is now almost none existent .so I guess going back to my original question is would this be ok to wash, dry and use? Cheers Darryl From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Joe StreetSent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 5:56 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] quality test questions Todd;With all due respect, I think you missed my point. I agree that we should strive for a paper thin interface, ( and I fin
Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
Greg, Your post below doesn't address what I wrote in reply to your suggestion that purchasing from Citgo was an illegal treaty > IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities > to make treaties with foreign nations, as such an > agreement might be considered. I don't contest that arrangements could have been made in a manner that benefitted the poor. But that is another matter. Besides, that would upstage the "nirvanic" policies of capitalism/Ameicanism, now wouldn't it? Todd Swearingen Greg and April wrote: >Todd, > >There is a world of difference between a non-profit organization buying cut >rate fuel for the use of non-profit distribution to the poor, and a local >government buying cut rate fuel for use in a 'for profit' program, even if >it is supposed to benefit the poor. > >If Chicago was to buy the cut rate fuel, there would eventually be allot >scandal issues, with accusation and counter accusation about members of the >local government benefiting & taking advantage from the cost difference. >Eventually things would have ended up in court ( an expensive place ). >This is what Chicago avoided by declining the fuel. > >OTOH, if a non-profit organization was to buy the fuel at the cut rate, and >sell it to Chicago at the market price, then use the money gained to >distribute special discount bus passes to the poor, then the poor would >benefit, and the government could not.The same thing could have been >achieved if the Citgo sold the fuel at market price, and gave a non-profit >origination the difference between the money to reimburse the poor of >Chicago for difference in the cost of the more expensive bus passes. > >What I am saying, is that arrangements could have been different, that would >allow the poor to benefit, without bringing Venezuela by way of Citgo and >the government of Chicago directly into contact.There should be a >non-political organization that does not benefit in any way between Citgo >and the poor of Chicago to avid the taint of corruption & bribery.** It >should be this way even if it was a domestic oil company that was donating >the fuel. ** > >Greg H. > >Why are lemmings better than politicians? >Lemmings only take themselves of cliffs. >Politicians try to send you ahead telling you what a favor they are doing >you to let you go first! > > > >- Original Message - >From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 22:30 >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil > > >Large difference between signing a treaty and signing a contract. > >Until such time as some form of federal embargo is placed against >Venezuela, the market remains open and there are no restrictions against >such a transaction. > >Todd Swearingen > > > >Greg and April wrote: > > > >>Not really. >> >>See a previous post with the subject - Venezuela Oil Fields Back in State >>Control, from Keith Addison: >> >>"In 2001, it passed a new law requiring oil production to be carried out by >>companies majority-owned by the government." >> >>Greg H. >> >> >>- Original Message - >>From: "Marty Phee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: >>Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:04 >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil >> >> >>Very true, but wouldn't they be signing a contract with Citgo and not >>Venezuela. >> >> >> >>Greg and April wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities to make treaties with >>>foreign nations, as such an agreement might be considered. >>> >>> >>>Greg H. >>> >>> >>>- Original Message - >>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>To: >>>Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 23:56 >>>Subject: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil >>> >>> >>>http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2710 >>> >>>Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil >>> >>>by Jessica Pupovac (bio) >>> >>>As Chicago's poorest face an increase to already-high public transit >>>fees, the city is ignoring an offer of discounted diesel fuel to >>>benefit low-income people. >>>Chicago, Dec 28, 2005 - The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an >>>opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in >>>the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting >>>deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum >>>Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget >>>shortfalls. >>> >>>In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit >>>Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city >>>officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost >>>diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan >>>President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings >>>on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards. >>> >>>But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the >>>CTA president "ha
Re: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions
Hello Jim, the sensible thing is to spending time and money producing BD from a cheap feedstock, not the other way around. Acid esterifications are often incomplete, and I assume that oils and fats with max 20% FFA are worth while bothering about, unless you are willing to do several acid esterification steps and draining off the produced water after each step.But in order to have a good conversion into BD, you finally have to run the alkaline transesterification step , also for neutralization. Good luck to you ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:26 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions > Thanks Jan, > If I had developed a method to separate FFA's from base stock without > using chemicals or water say in the range of 95% separation in WVO > (still a work in progress but hopeful results) so that I could React the > Low FFA's in a Base method then would it be feasible to react the High > FFA's In a separate Acid reaction? Or what problems would I encounter > like the water problem you noted below? Would the FFA's be worth the > trouble? > > Thanks Jim > > Jan Warnqvist wrote: > > >Hello Jim, > >when using the acid esterification, you will have methyl esters, unreacted > >oil, sulphate ions, oxonium ions and - water. > >Proceeding to the base step you will create more methyl esters, potassium or > >sodium soaps, maybe a little unreacted oil or partially reacted oil, > >potassium or sodium sulphates and - even more water. > >This method works fine if the water content can be kept on a reasonable > >level. Please note that the higher the initial FFA level, the more water > >will be produced. > >With best regards > >Jan > >Jan Warnqvist > >AGERATEC AB > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >+ 46 554 201 89 > >+46 70 499 38 45 > >- Original Message - > >From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "BIO" > >Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:01 AM > >Subject: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions > > > > > > > > > >>I have decided to try the acid/base method in small test batches as I > >>have some High FFA (4ml) oil I would like to process. Since September I > >>have gone to great lengths to get repeatability and accuracy in all my > >>work with Biodiesel. I have read and re-read JtF and I know that I will > >>no doubt read it several more times if I get stumped. I would like to > >>start with fully understanding the process first. > >>Before I start: > >>Can you use KOH with the Acid Base method? It might be obvious, but I > >>did not see it in the recipe as a substitution. > >> > >>When the acid gets done with Estrification properly then the mix that is > >>left is basically an oil (triglycerides) , Methanol, and Sulfur ions ? > >>Or did I miss something? > >> > >>When the Methoxil is added the Sulfur gets combined with the Sodium > >>ions, (right?) how does this affect the reaction? > >> > >>Any good experienced information would be helpful, > >> > >>Jim > >> > >>___ > >>Biofuel mailing list > >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >> > >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> > >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > >> > >> > >messages): > > > > > >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >___ > >Biofuel mailing list > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Dewatering with vacuum.
David Sorry if that number's wrong it's what I've been told from the only person I know who does AC work. But that number makes it sound a lot better. You will not have 1 cubic foot of water in your oil after you settle and drain it. If you do then you need to get a better method. There is likely less then 1 cubic inch after setteling and draining. That would only take 6 miniutes to remove. Logan Vilas - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Dewatering with vacuum. > logan vilas wrote: > >> Water boils off at 43F at 20-50mmhg of vacuum at sea level. At 140F it >> takes about 150-200mmhg. When fluids are mixed togther the Pressure of >> Vaporization changes especially when thouroughly mixed. You do not >> need a condensor if you are useing a AC type vacuum pump(that's what >> they are designed for). >> >> I know iowa's BECON program flash heats their oil to 230F then runs it >> through a vacuum chamber to achieve dewatering. Unless you have a very >> large vacuum pump or very little water in your oil it will take a long >> time. Water multiplies in volume by 10-18 thousand times when boiled. > > > Say WHAT? I'm not sure what number you mean by "10-18 thousand". The > number I remember is about 1700 times. > >> >> 1 Cubic foot = 1728 cubic inches >> 1 Cubic Inch of water when boiled off = 5.79 cubic feet minimum >> 1 gallon = 231 cubic inches >> >> Vacuum Distilation alone would take a huge amount of time. I would >> still heat then let it settle and remove the water off the bottom. >> Then use vacuum distilation. Remember if you buy a 5CFM vacuum pump >> that is displacement of the piston at no load and full rpm. When you >> start pulling a vacuum that number falls off quickely and at 30" that >> is probably less then 1CFM. > > > You have to multiply the CFM by the pressure. 1/30 atmosphere * 5 CFM = > 1/6 CFM. It you're trying to pump off a cubic foot of water it would > take something like 1700 * 6 minutes. That's a long time to wait:) > > --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
