Re: [Biofuel] quality test questions

[garutek]

Wow, great info thanks for the cookbook type info that really helped me see how you did this. A while back I read your mentioning about this stirrer - heater. I could not find it on your site and didn't have time so I refrained from asking more details. Now this finds me at the right time and with the type of directions that I really like. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] quality test questions Hi Darryl; Sorry for the confusion.  The point is that a good reaction will leave you with a good separation between the esters (fuel) and everything else which makes up the 'glycerin cocktail', and when water is introduced, there should be next to no third layer but the absolute thickness of the layer, if you see one, will depend on the dimensions of the container, all other factors being equal. As to the previous statements you made about inconsistent information on how to do the process, my best advice is to follow explicitly the instructions on the J2F website starting from the begining and you will do just fine. In my own journey of discovery I learned this.  You cannot afford to cut corners.  Don't be tempted to use less than accurate measures and think that it will be alright. There is no cheating. I found that my success depended a lot on how careful I was with the titration step.  Also I found that when the 0.1% base solution was added there was a tendancy for some oil to drop out and I think this affected my accuracy.  I built a stirrer to keep the liquid in the test tube very well agitated during the titration and this helped a lot as I could tell by the consistency when I repeated the titration several times. If you want a description of how to make a very low cost titration kit check my website at http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/Titrator.html Get a pipette marked in 0.1ml increments and a control bulb and it will make things easy and very accurate, for an investment of about 30 bucks. Another huge factor for me in getting complete reactions once I scaled up from the one liter size was the discovery that the methoxide had to be injected into the inlet of the mixing pump.  I had tried other methods of introducing the methoxide which were not very successful.  Methoxide and oil do not mix easily. By introducing the methoxide at the pump inlet, the pump impeller ensured vigorous mixing which made a huge difference for me.  With hindsight the instructions do say that thorough mixing is of critical importance but the point is I thought that recirculation alone would be enough to do the job and clearly it wasn't with my setup. If you stick to what the instructions tell you it will work. Same goes for the quality tests.  If you get quick separation and do not develop a third layer and the water stays clear you have good fuel.  This is subjective and the absolute time required for the settling will vary depending on the severity of the agitation, but overall the statement holds. So as to your last question if after 3 or 4 washes your water is coming out clear then it sounds great.  Perhaps what you saw as a 5 cm layer was a mixture of water and oil due to excessive agitation which just took a little longer to settle.  Did you shake for more than ten seconds? Joe Darryl West wrote: I have found this an interesting discussion, which has left me a little more confused about what I need to do.  I am gathering the take home message from my original question is that the Dr Peppers technique might not be the best one and that I need to look more at my over all process to reduce the amount of unprocessed materials.  Could you guys maybe suggest what are the best measurements (recipes) to use to try and achieve a nearly complete reaction with virgin oil.  I am very new to this and am really just looking to get it right before trying to scale it all up, but I am finding that there is some much information out there and a lot of it seems to be inconsistent with other things that I read. Also the container that I did the quality wash was a 250ml soda bottle.  I went back and had a look at it again yesterday and the 5cm layer is now almost none existent .so I guess going back to my original question is would this be ok to wash, dry and use? Cheers Darryl From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 5:56 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] quality test questions Todd; With all due respect, I think you missed my point.  I agree that we should strive for a paper thin interface, ( and I find it is easily achievable with experience) but when you put information out there like 1mm is ok and 5 mm is relatively incomplete it is meaningless unless you give the dimensions of the container and volume of liquid.  Someone down the road might read that (a newbie) and say it has to be 1 mm.  Consider a batch reacted which has 1 liter total volume.  If I put that in a 10 cm square vessel it will also be 10 cm high and a 1mm layer at the interface would equate to 10 ml of contaminant.  Now if I just pour the whole thing into another vessel of equal volume but with a 1 cm square size (bottom) it will have to be 1000 cm tall to hold it, and the contamination layer (which is the same amount) will show up as a 10 cm thick layer. So here you have a 1mm vs 100 mm thickness difference on the same reaction, just because of a different shape of vessel, but in both cases the thickness of the contaminant is the same fraction of the overall height (assumes a vessel of uniform dimensions) and the same fraction of the volume. Joe Appal Energy wrote: <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--> Let's wake up here, at least for the moment Joe.   Soda pop comes in multiple sized bottles, as do drums, tanks and buckets. Your problem isn't dependant upon whether or not your container was a 20 ounce, 1 liter or 2 liter jug.   The thin interface layer of a completed reaction is the result of the direct interaction/contact between water and fuel, not the volume of the batch or the diameter of a reaction vessel. A thick "interface layer" is actually a heavy emulsion that is caused by the excessive presence of mono- and di-glycerides.   A complete reaction? A thin interface layer, no matter the vessel geometry.   An incomplete reaction? A heavy emulsion formation. Depending upon how poorly the reaction went to completion, you could end up with nearly an entire vessel of of emulsified glycerides.   Todd Swearingen       Joe Street wrote:     Hi Todd;   When you talk about thickness of layers, is this with the Dr. Pepper size container?  Someone using a shallow wide container would have a much worse condition (with a 1mm layer) than someone using a tall narrow container no?  Maybe when giving this type of information we should talk about layer thickness as a fraction of the total vertical height in the container rather than give absolute measurements?   Joe   Appal Energy wrote:       Daryl,   The suggestion is that you understand precisely what it is that you're looking at when you see a thick layer of emulsion in a wash. If the fuel was manufactured properly, the interface layer between water and fuel in a test wash would be only a milimeter or two thick. Five centimeters indicates a reasonably incomplete reaction.   As for your suggested resolve? Reducing the methanol and lye? Going that direction would only compound the matter.   Todd Swearingen     Darryl West wrote:           Hi,   I am just after a bit more advice regarding the quality test on a small test batch.  I followed the Dr Peppers technique using new canola oil and the process seems to have worked out ok.  When I do the quality test I get separation in 30 mins, but also get a small (5cm) white layer between the water and biodiesel, which I believe is soap.  Does this indicate poor fuel? Would it still be ok to wash and dry and use, or should I not use this batch and maybe use less methanol and lye?   thanks   Darryl West       _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org   Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/                        _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org   Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/             ------------------------------------------------------------------------   _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org   Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/           _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org   Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/       _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

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