[Biofuel] Things are not any better in England
From: http://www.colsweb.com/constdraw.htm BLOG NOTES March 2006;UK Government gross maltreatment of ill folk.For the last 14 years, at least, invalid/disabled and private pension payments have been overtaken by real inflation thus lessening there value each year by approximately 10 percent and are thus worth less than one quarter what they were. Disabled folk are now additionally burdened with UK National Health Service and government law which requires them to pay for things which were previously free ie; wheelchairs, home help etc etc.Mentally ill and some physically disabled folk also continue not to be employable due to employee insurance non availability (despite proof of their qualifications and capabilities) or even much insurance at all despite revision of the disabled and mental health acts which were supposed to give equal opportunity and rights.These prove the deliberate totally unwarranted inhumane stance taken toward the very ill and most venerable folk in society by the Labour Party Government of the UK and their bamboozlement of the general public with false media public relations propaganda.To say the least we are all APPALLED and ask WHY as everyone is told by the government the Country is financially well.End of Blog Notes March 2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Hey Randall, its greed just greed and again greed and only greed! Fritz Maybe, but whose greed, exactly? I'm not addressing this at anyone in particular... This is a simple thing that's become woven into a hugely complicated situation, a matter of empire. As a result it's not only anything anymore, though the simple thing remains, which is that torture is evil, fullstop. People can talk about war being necessary sometimes or even about holy wars, but you can't argue that torture is necessary sometimes or talk about holy torture unless you're voting for the return of the Inquisition. Torture is not necessary under any circumstances, because all you need to do to break somebody's will is to keep them awake. That's torture too, but it always works. So why do people have to use brutal violence and such perversions as electric shocks to people's genitals? You find these people in every society, people who'll run death camps if that's what's happening, whether passively as guards who are indeed probably just doing their job, enslaved people will do anything you want them to, or actively as torturers and killers, sick and twisted people who'll do it because they love it. That doesn't have anything to do with greed. Every society has its psychopaths, they're a tiny minority, they do not define the society they're a part of, they don't define anything except themselves. States employ torture, not humans unless they're sickos who get off on it. You know, people like Hannibal the Cannibal. The US attempt to blame low-ranking cannon-fodder for Abu Ghraib etc is just a case of the true culprit throwing up a smokescreen, as usual. You'll always be able to find people who'll stoop to torture if you institutionalise torture, and then if it gets spotlighted you can use them as the fall guys. Hakan's right, IMHO. Many people have commented that Americans just aren't interested in the torture issue, they're turning a blind eye while it goes on happening and spreads. Pointing the finger, or a finger, at the UN is something you might do if you don't know much about John Bolton either - Americans are definitely to blame for him too, and he's there for one reason only, to kick the UN into a compliant shape. Please read this: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/15/usint12295.htm Response to Criticism of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights (Human Rights Watch, 15-12-2005) That's UN Ambassador John Bolton on US torture. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Bolton John R. Bolton - SourceWatch http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60612.html [Biofuel] Steamroller Bolton at the U.N. http://www.counterpunch.org/barry03142005.html Tom Barry: John Bolton's Baggage Institutionalised torture is an abomination, it stains everybody with complicity in a nation that condones it or institutes it, unless they live under a totalitarian dictatorship. It's said people get the government they deserve. There's a lot of meaning in that but it's not really true. The amount of say that most people have in their governments is only theirs on sufferance, those in a totalitarian state have no say, they're slaves. But people who had every say and every opportunity and who let it all slip away through sheer negligence get the government they deserve. In this current case, everybody else's problem is that the rest of us are getting that government too and we don't deserve it. If you want to blame someone, blame this: Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship. -- William Blum - Rogue State, on how governments control their citizens http://www.killinghope.org/ People get the newspapers they deserve too. It's also said it's our imaginations that keep us human, the ability to live a thousand lives. So use it - put yourself and your feelings inside someone who's screaming themselves to death while mad torturers laugh and jeer and do everything they can to make it worse. See how much you can take even just trying to imagine it, let alone have it happen to you. Then make excuses, if you still want to. Try to put yourself inside one of the torturers too, see how only human it is. Like hell it is. Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it fixed. Best Keith - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Randall To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture? Hakan, To answer your question: No. Your questions imply that ALL Americans have proof about systematic and long-term torture, and quite simply I do not believe that you have the evidence to support that assertion. What other countries have been reported to and are listed with Amnesty International as having employed torture?Are you going to issue the same indictment of the citizens of those countries as well?
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Keith, Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, and a HUGE group of us USers (I hate the term American - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't exist) are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight his programs. My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are the lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. No one I know is in favor of torture, and if you follow the news in the US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. thing, not an American thing. Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it fixed. We are, and our numbers are growing each day! -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hey Randall, its greed just greed and again greed and only greed! Fritz Maybe, but whose greed, exactly? I'm not addressing this at anyone in particular... This is a simple thing that's become woven into a hugely complicated situation, a matter of empire. As a result it's not only anything anymore, though the simple thing remains, which is that torture is evil, fullstop. People can talk about war being necessary sometimes or even about holy wars, but you can't argue that torture is necessary sometimes or talk about holy torture unless you're voting for the return of the Inquisition. Torture is not necessary under any circumstances, because all you need to do to break somebody's will is to keep them awake. That's torture too, but it always works. So why do people have to use brutal violence and such perversions as electric shocks to people's genitals? You find these people in every society, people who'll run death camps if that's what's happening, whether passively as guards who are indeed probably just doing their job, enslaved people will do anything you want them to, or actively as torturers and killers, sick and twisted people who'll do it because they love it. That doesn't have anything to do with greed. Every society has its psychopaths, they're a tiny minority, they do not define the society they're a part of, they don't define anything except themselves. States employ torture, not humans unless they're sickos who get off on it. You know, people like Hannibal the Cannibal. The US attempt to blame low-ranking cannon-fodder for Abu Ghraib etc is just a case of the true culprit throwing up a smokescreen, as usual. You'll always be able to find people who'll stoop to torture if you institutionalise torture, and then if it gets spotlighted you can use them as the fall guys. Hakan's right, IMHO. Many people have commented that Americans just aren't interested in the torture issue, they're turning a blind eye while it goes on happening and spreads. Pointing the finger, or a finger, at the UN is something you might do if you don't know much about John Bolton either - Americans are definitely to blame for him too, and he's there for one reason only, to kick the UN into a compliant shape. Please read this: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/15/usint12295.htm Response to Criticism of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights (Human Rights Watch, 15-12-2005) That's UN Ambassador John Bolton on US torture. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Bolton John R. Bolton - SourceWatch http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60612.html [Biofuel] Steamroller Bolton at the U.N. http://www.counterpunch.org/barry03142005.html Tom Barry: John Bolton's Baggage Institutionalised torture is an abomination, it stains everybody with complicity in a nation that condones it or institutes it, unless they live under a totalitarian dictatorship. It's said people get the government they deserve. There's a lot of meaning in that but it's not really true. The amount of say that most people have in their governments is only theirs on sufferance, those in a totalitarian state have no say, they're slaves. But people who had every say and every opportunity and who let it all slip away through sheer negligence get the government they deserve. In this current case, everybody else's problem is that the rest of us are getting that government too and we don't deserve it. If you want to blame someone, blame this: Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship. -- William Blum - Rogue State, on how governments control their citizens http://www.killinghope.org/ People get the newspapers they deserve too. It's also said it's our imaginations that keep us human, the ability to live a thousand lives. So use it - put yourself and your feelings inside someone who's screaming themselves to death while mad torturers laugh and jeer and do everything they can to make it worse. See how much you can take even just trying to imagine it, let alone have it happen to you. Then make excuses, if you still want to. Try to put yourself inside one of the torturers too, see how only
Re: [Biofuel] Electric lynch motors
Yeah, you can't smoke in an outdoor cafe here in the US but you can pour mercury-laden smoke into the atmosphere to your heart's content! -Mike Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Galapagos: Nothing, if they have not done it the last 8 month. I did not see any solar, not even on the houses. The tour boats are not small, generally they take 100 or more passengers, with spacious dining, entertainment and kitchen areas. I was very surprised by the contradictions between the vocal care for environment and the dirty tourist ships. There are many of them, but the Americans try to keep their mind in rest, by not allowing smoking. LOL Hakan At 01:06 04/05/2006, you wrote: Never heard of biscuit tin motors, but I have heard of lynch motors -- used for all kinds of little electric vehicals. I've also heard a bit about eletric boats and ferries -- they used to have one for president Roosevelt (Teddy) I think, for the official launch (equivalent to his Marine 1 helicopter now I guess). As he said, weight is not an issue, and nowadays, you can easily (technically, if you can afford it) put a kW or so of PV as a shade canopy on the barge and run it around all day, pollution free. I know that the galapagos islands were wanting to convert alot of their little tour boats, because they just tool around all day belching diesel (which also kills alot of the very wildlife the tourists are there to see, in the frequent fuel spills). Not sure how far along they've gotten on this plan. On 5/3/06, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all A nice person wrote to me from the UK and told me about this, among other things - anyone know about 'biscuit tin motors'? You may be interested to know that I own a 1936 canal barge which I have had converted so that the propulsion system is an electric lynch motor. I dare say you already know about lynch motors but just in case you don't they are also known as 'biscuit tin motors' because they are so tiny that they will actually fit inside one. The lynch motor happily pushes along my boat which is 72 feet long and weighs in at over 20 tons Fortunately on a boat , batteries are a positive attribute because they become ballast to keep the hull down in the water. I usually have 1,650 amp hours of them onboard. The weak link is the fact that my budget didn't stretch to the kilowatt of photovoltaics needed to do the propulsion system justice so I don't travel very far at present : ( Hugh, who fitted the lynch motor has a website www.solarboat.co.uk which you may find interesting. Also: http://www.lemcoltd.com/ L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors Lynch Motor Company Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel videos
If you're not a little oily and there ain't a few stains on the floor you can't be doing it right! Joe Street wrote: I just watched a biodiesel DVD that was made in eastern Ontario. It was obvious that a pile of money was invested by somebody but everything looked brand new and shiny, instead of used and oily like it should. There were three hot water tanks in all, one for preheating, one for reacting and one for drying. As I watched it became obvious that this guy did not have a lot of knowledge. He had a small automotive style cartridge filter for filtering feed stock! We have just been discussing gravity settling on this list and why prefiltration is not needed. They were using bubble washing and heating the fuel and bubbling air through the fuel for drying which is a nice recipe for oxidizing. Then the guy fires up the blender for a demo batch and with 200 ml of methoxide frothing and spitting away with blender running he takes the lid off to pour oil in, and this is also indoors. Yikes! They then start showing a full size batch but completely skip over the process after filling the pre-heating tank with what looked to be very well settled or previously filtered oil. When he demonstrates a measuring cup of glycerin he has decanted in the background on the sight tube you can see the reactor doesn't even have anything in it. There is no pre wash test or anything and he doesn't say anything about titration for that matter either. Has anybody else seen similar crap? I wonder how much of this nonsense is floating around out there. It makes me cringe. I have been asked twice to be on TV and once approached to help make one of these DVD's and I am starting to get the creeps! Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] The Predator's Ball
But think of the fallout for the average working stiff with NO safety net - we need to keep the good and change the bad. Just because it's gotten MUCH worse under Bush doesn't mean we can't repair it. Look at Roosevelt's programs - that was a wholesale change without a total collapse and failure - sure the Depression spurred it, but the country as a whole did not fail. I've spent enough time in Africa to know societal collapse is not the answer... Jason Katie wrote: i say LET IT FAIL. let it fail like a drunk acrobat with no net. if anything we should try to accelerate the process. the faster we hit bottom, the faster we can re-establish something decent. there are very few ways to repair this mess without a total demolition and refurbishment. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 2:17 AM Subject: [Biofuel] The Predator State = Enron, Tyco, WorldCom... and the U.S. government? http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12880.htm The Predator State Enron, Tyco, WorldCom... and the U.S. government? By James K. Galbraith 04/29/06 Mother Jones -- -- WHAT IS THE REAL NATURE of American capitalism today? Is it a grand national adventure, as politicians and textbooks aver, in which markets provide the framework for benign competition, from which emerges the greatest good for the greatest number? Or is it the domain of class struggle, even a global class war, as the title of Jeff Faux's new book would have it, in which the party of Davos outmaneuvers the remnants of the organized working class? The doctrines of the law and economics movement, now ascendant in our courts, hold that if people are rational, if markets can be contested, if memory is good and information adequate, then firms will adhere on their own to norms of honorable conduct. Any public presence in the economy undermines this. Even insurance-whether deposit insurance or Social Security-is perverse, for it encourages irresponsible risktaking. Banks will lend to bad clients, workers will live for today, companies will speculate with their pension funds; the movement has even argued that seat belts foster reckless driving. Insurance, in other words, creates a moral hazard for which market discipline is the cure; all works for the best when thought and planning do not interfere. It's a strange vision, and if we weren't governed by people like John Roberts and Sam Alito, who pretend to believe it, it would scarcely be worth our attention. The idea of class struggle goes back a long way; perhaps it really is the history of all hitherto existing society, as Marx and Engels famously declared. But if the world is ruled by a monied elite, then to what extent do middle-class working Americans compose part of the global proletariat? The honest answer can only be: not much. The political decline of the left surely flows in part from rhetoric that no longer matches experience; for the most part, American voters do not live on the Malthusian margin. Dollars command the world's goods, rupees do not; membership in the dollar economy makes every working American, to some degree, complicit in the capitalist class. In the mixed-economy America I grew up in, there existed a post-capitalist, post-Marxian vision of middle-class identity. It consisted of shared assets and entitlements, of which the bedrock was public education, access to college, good housing, full employment at living wages, Medicare, and Social Security. These programs, publicly provided, financed, or guaranteed, had softened the rough edges of Great Depression capitalism, rewarding the sacrifices that won the Second World War. They also showcased America, demonstrating to those behind the Iron Curtain that regulated capitalism could yield prosperity far beyond the capacities of state planning. (This, and not the arms race, ultimately brought down the Soviet empire.) These middle-class institutions survive in America today, but they are frayed and tattered from constant attack. And the division between those included and those excluded is large and obvious to all. Today, the signature of modern American capitalism is neither benign competition, nor class struggle, nor an inclusive middle-class utopia. Instead, predation has become the dominant feature-a system wherein the rich have come to feast on decaying systems built for the middle class. The predatory class is not the whole of the wealthy; it may be opposed by many others of similar wealth. But it is the defining feature, the leading force. And its agents are in full control of the government under which we live. Our rulers deliver favors to their clients. These range from Native American casino operators, to Appalachian coal companies, to Saipan sweatshop operators, to the would-be oil field operators of Iraq. They include the misanthropes who led the campaign to abolish the estate tax; Charles Schwab, who suggested the
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance? Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying to be argumentative. I really am profoundly concerned about our world situation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack and all???). I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to go down swinging. Thanks. Mike - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Hi Mike Hi...I'd like to hear the list's opinion about the process developed by Iogen to produce cellulosic ethanol. Goldman Sachs announced yesterday (May 1) an investment of $30million Canadian in the company. Royal Dutch/Shell, Petro-Canada, and the Canadian Gov't have also all partnered with or are supporting Iogen. The first article below, by Sam Jaffe, an editor with The Scientist magazine, discusses cellulosic ethanol as well as a fuel cell developed by Lanny Scmidt. The second link is to the Iogen website itself. Thanks. Mike http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.jaffe.html http://www.iogen.ca/ Here's some previous discussion: http://snipurl.com/pxs2 biofuel Search results for 'iogen' 94 matches Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Maybe it'll get off the ground now, it's been around for years and nothing happens. Like all the other ethanol-from-cellulose projects. What bothers me about it, other than how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production anyway, is that cellulose is widely regarded as waste, but the soil that produced it might not think so.
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Hey Weaver!!I like the crackpots and cranks on the list. Todd's writing keeps me entertained for hours. And you and Redler keep me spinning. To the point where I lose track of which mike is saying what.I too am the former neighborhood crank/mad scientist now the forward thinking nutjob who might save the world. We need more of me!!fOn 5/4/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now exceptfor diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers.I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BDgenerator running and use electric.I heat with wood.I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream ofvisitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote:Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosicethanol generally.This whole area is very new to me.Somehow I have beenblind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence uponoil as an energy source.All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control mylife really is.And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 overthere???Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay,but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources.This research hasled me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a worldview that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked.Justanother suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, comeback from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes intoaccount the full extent of my actions).This side of the edge, however,isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might trulypossess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply beginto wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toeback over the edge into dreamland again).Is this clear...or am I comingoff as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments.I'm still readingthrough all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe myquestions will be answered along the way.Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rationalbiofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhapslead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production?My immediate response to this has to do with a main point Ihave observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is notsomething me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty ofdistribution.Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources.I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on thispoint), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will youplease explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance?Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying tobe argumentative.I really am profoundly concerned about our worldsituation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack and all???).I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to godown swinging.Thanks.Mike- Original Message -From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:17 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Hi MikeHi...I'd like to hear the list's opinion about the process developedby Iogen to produce cellulosic ethanol.Goldman Sachs announced yesterday (May 1) an investment of $30million Canadian in thecompany.Royal Dutch/Shell, Petro-Canada, and the Canadian Gov'thave also all partnered with or are supporting Iogen. The first article below, by Sam Jaffe, an editor with TheScientist magazine, discusses cellulosic ethanol as well as a fuelcell developed by Lanny Scmidt.The second link is to the Iogen website itself.Thanks.Mikehttp://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.jaffe.html http://www.iogen.ca/Here's some previous discussion:http://snipurl.com/pxs2biofuelSearch results for 'iogen' 94 matchesEthanol from cellulosehttp://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Maybe it'll get off the ground now, it's been around for years andnothing happens. Like all the other ethanol-from-cellulose projects.What bothers me
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FFA's as Weed Killer
Fox Mulder wrote: hi, pouring glycerine on the leaves kills. glycerine is alkaline; so, alkalinity kills leaves. Further, methyl ester kills leaves. The best weed killer; Follow the ingredients; glycerine left over from your biodiesel 2parts sodium ethanoate 1part We are talking about the FFAs separated out of the glycerine cocktail; the coproduct of biodiesel production. The value of FFAs as a weed killer comes from the fact that it is readily broken down and there is minimum, if any contamination of the soil. The pH of the FFAs, as best I can determine, is very similar to the pH of my soil ~ 6.5. It has been pointed out that the use of the glycerine left over from your biodiesel kills weeds, but the concern is that it also kills earthworms one of the hardest-working employees I have in my garden. My use of compost and a thick layer of mulch is as much an attempt to build an environment attractive to earthworms, saprophytic fungi and bacteria as it is to support plant growth directly. If fact, w/o these organisms, much of the nutrients tied up in the compost and mulch would not be available to my plants. Once separated (see JTF) the crude glycerine (methanol recovered) is slightly acidic, not alkaline. It can be neutralized it w. baking soda or ammonia and can be used to produce biogas (methane), or added to the ferment ethanol. At the moment, I neutralize it w. ammonia and add it to my compost (1 part glycerine: 2 parts water). The glycerine is rapidly metabolized for energy and the ammonia contributes nitrogen. It seems to work well. The minerals that precipitate out upon separation of the cocktail (in my case a mix of sodium and potassium phosphate) are fertilizers. My compost piles are essentially layers of grass clippings, then leaves, then manure .. repeat. I dissolve about 1 tablespoon of the mineral precip. in the water that I mix with the glycerine and pour it on the leaf layer using a watering can. I have several pounds of mineral precip and many gallons of glycerine, so I may have to find other ways to use it, but am more than hesitant to spray either directly on my garden or flower beds. That leaves the FFAs from separation. I've noodled around with adding them to my heating fuel (BD100). I suspect that there was some glycerine contamination because after a bout a week to 10 days the electrodes in my burner were coated w. a thick, crusty goo. I'll let it settle for a month at warmer temp get back to that , but for now, FFAs as weed killers has caught my interest. Sorry to get so wordy. I'm not adding anything new. It has all been discussed at JTF and by list members. The discussion, so far, has put an emphasis on the minimal environmental impact of FFAs as weed killers, not that they are the best, as in most effective. After all there's always Roundup or 2,4-D if one simply wants to kill plants w/o worrying about consequences. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Mike, You wrote: Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. Not to worry, you are right there with him. I often have to check to see which Mike I'm reading. For a while there I was fairly certain there really only was one Mike. I noticed that while Mike R. was away, we didn't hear from Mike W. Two of my favorite characters on the list. Never stay away long. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Dear Thomas, Do not believe anything Weaver says. He makes things up. -Mike Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, You wrote: Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. Not to worry, you are right there with him. I often have to check to see which Mike I'm reading. For a while there I was fairly certain there really only was one Mike. I noticed that while Mike R. was away, we didn't hear from Mike W. Two of my favorite characters on the list. Never stay away long. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Redler for President
I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
Ohhh no. I've already shot myself in the foot on many occasions and shotguns are too devastating. I need something left to put in my mouth from time to time! J Mike Weaver wrote: I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
Slingshot? Joe Street wrote: Ohhh no. I've already shot myself in the foot on many occasions and shotguns are too devastating. I need something left to put in my mouth from time to time! J Mike Weaver wrote: I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
How about a biogas powered potato cannon? Redler can provide the gas I think. Mike Weaver wrote: Slingshot? Joe Street wrote: Ohhh no. I've already shot myself in the foot on many occasions and shotguns are too devastating. I need something left to put in my mouth from time to time! J Mike Weaver wrote: I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
Hey Guys, i think Redler would be better of with a good old bavarian Dumplingcanon?! Fritz - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President How about a biogas powered potato cannon? Redler can provide the gas I think.Mike Weaver wrote: Slingshot? Joe Street wrote: Ohhh no. I've already shot myself in the foot on many occasions and shotguns are too devastating. I need something left to put in my mouth from time to time! J Mike Weaver wrote: I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
We better find out how much he weighs before we design a cannon to shoot him from. Redler? Fritz Friesinger wrote: Hey Guys, i think Redler would be better of with a good old bavarian Dumplingcanon?! Fritz - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, May 04, 2006 12:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President How about a biogas powered potato cannon? Redler can provide the gas I think. Mike Weaver wrote: Slingshot? Joe Street wrote: Ohhh no. I've already shot myself in the foot on many occasions and shotguns are too devastating. I need something left to put in my mouth from time to time! J Mike Weaver wrote: I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
You tryin' ta say Redler's gassier than me? Joe Street wrote: How about a biogas powered potato cannon? Redler can provide the gas I think. Mike Weaver wrote: Slingshot? Joe Street wrote: Ohhh no. I've already shot myself in the foot on many occasions and shotguns are too devastating. I need something left to put in my mouth from time to time! J Mike Weaver wrote: I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Thanks Jason and Kate. I suspected as much, so I carry on with my suspicions. Mike - Original Message - From: "Jason Katie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance? Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying to be argumentative. I really am profoundly concerned about our world situation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack and all???). I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to go down swinging. Thanks. Mike - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Hello Mike I enjoyed reading that, thanks. Not that I enjoy your plight, but you put it well. I think you're in good company. You can be argumentative if you like, go right ahead (but no need for the .38! LOL!). It's when people get argumentative just for the sake of it or to throw up a smokescreen or something that people mind. At least they do here. No harm in being a probable lunatic either, as long as you're more or less polite about it. In a mad world you have to go a bit nuts sometimes or you'll go nuts. Regarding rational biofuels production, you might find this interesting: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Re gobbling up crop wastes, here's an old admonition from 60 years ago: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/paydirt/paydirt_3b.html#chem Pay Dirt - Part 3b ... followed, of course, by 60 years' worth of gobbled up crop wastes. Soil robbery. I don't know anymore these days how many farms go past per minute on their way to the Dead Zone if you stand on the banks of the Mississippi. Or River X. Sustainable biofuels aren't sustainable if the feedstock crops aren't sustainably grown, and that means following nature's Law of Return. Not a problem, unless you ignore it. If you do it right there's plenty to spare, nature's bounty is never-ending. Upping stakes and wandering off is a sound idea, IMHO, follow your nose and do whatever happens to you. I'll bet it turns out to be a lot less aimless and chaotic than I'm sure everyone will tell you, very efficient way of going about finding what you're looking for. Best Keith Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance? Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying to be argumentative. I really am profoundly concerned about our world situation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack and all???). I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to go down swinging. Thanks. Mike - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re:
[Biofuel] Wise words from a GA carpet manufacturer?
Hi List, I'm new, but I think this is a worthy posting...relevant that is. I saw Ray Anderson, CEO of Interface, Inc speak last week. Some may recognize him from the Corporation documentary. It wasrefreshing and inspirational to hear a man in a suit, a southerner even (GA is my home state too!), speak with such conviction about environmental ethics and howhe hopes his company will lead toward a new, sustainable industrial paradigm.Here's a version ofthe speech he gave.Enjoy and of course, I would like to hear what the list has to say! www.gpiatlantic.org/conference/proceedings/ anderson.pdf Catherine ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
"Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family).:-) - RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me.Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person...Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list.-MikeJason Katie wrote:Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity.- Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be???___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Hello Mike Keith, Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, And the one before, and the next one. But which president didn't? It's just a matter of degree of in-your-faceness. The Business Party wins every time. 'It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party, with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business.' - Noam Chomsky That is hardly unique to the US. and a HUGE group of us USers (I hate the term American - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't exist) We've discussed that before. But it's worldwide usage. I don't think it causes much confusion, Washington, Americans, North Americans, everybody understands that. are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight his programs. Huge? You (collectively) were outmanoeuvred 30 years ago and you've hardly got a thing right since, you didn't see anything coming. You weren't even easy meat for Bushco, there wasn't any need to take any notice of you at all. The left or whatever you want to call it has been pathetic, and still is. My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are the lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. No one I know is in favor of torture, Of course they're not. and if you follow the news in the US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. thing, not an American thing. The School of the Americas, eg? If all you want is to get things back the way they were before Bushco, then you're liable to have another Bushco ere long. Business-as-usual over the last 60 years is what has to go, not just Bushco. Particularly with foreign policy. Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it fixed. We are, and our numbers are growing each day! Good! But, nationwide, what you see is silence, people looking the other way, compliance. Torture rates as a minor issue or a non-issue. Rice and Bolton et al can still deny that it happens and get away with it. After three and a half years! If you were a torture victim, you'd still be waiting patiently all this time would you? It's two years since congress was treated to three hours of slides and videos of US troops abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib, yet your leaders can still deny it happens. Not exactly under a lot of pressure, are they? There is no indication of meaningful action by the US government to remedy the situation and prevent further abuse. -- Amnesty International Americans are waking up in large numbers, at long last, and maybe it's not even too late, but it hasn't reached the torture issue yet. You can still say nobody cares, and people do say that. Of course there are exceptions, there always are. I'm not knocking you Mike, nor the efforts of any and all who oppose power and brute force, I'm sure you know that. But I don't think you've made a dent in anything I said. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0106-26.htm Published on Thursday, January 6, 2005 by New York Times We Are All Torturers Now http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/050214fa_fact6 The New Yorker Outsourcing Torture The secret history of America's extraordinary rendition program by JANE MAYER Issue of 2005-02-14 On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture. And he's still there, eh? Most Americans haven't got a clue what they look the other way at. Best Keith -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hey Randall, its greed just greed and again greed and only greed! Fritz Maybe, but whose greed, exactly? I'm not addressing this at anyone in particular... This is a simple thing that's become woven into a hugely complicated situation, a matter of empire. As a result it's not only anything anymore, though the simple thing remains, which is that torture is evil, fullstop. People can talk about war being necessary sometimes or even about holy wars, but you can't argue that torture is necessary sometimes or talk about holy torture unless you're voting for the return of the Inquisition. Torture is not necessary under any circumstances, because all you need to do
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
Hey!!! That's not nice!I guess politics is dirty AND stinky.Besides, I want to be secretary of defense. I have a foolproof alternative to resolving foreign policy conflicts. Our armies will no longer need to carry rifles.As we speak, I have an elite force infiltrating hostile lands, causing confusion and chaos.http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Currents/Content?oid=81815...see also http://tinyurl.com/6ekee- Redler Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about a biogas powered potato cannon? Redler can provide the gas I think. Mike Weaver wrote: Slingshot?Joe Street wrote:Ohhh no. I've already shot myself in the foot on many occasions and shotguns are too devastating. I need something left to put in my mouth from time to time!JMike Weaver wrote: I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post.I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street.I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though.Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!!Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun.JMike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me.Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person...Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list.-MikeJason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity.- Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List[snip]___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless,
[Biofuel] [Fwd: [May 9-10, 2006] National Sustainable Design Expo]
FYI *Environmental and Energy Study Institute *122 C Street, NW, Suite 630 • Washington, DC 20001 Phone (202) 628-1400 • Fax (202) 628-1825 • [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] • _www.eesi.org_ http://www.eesi.org *EVENT NOTICE* *National Sustainable Design Expo featuring EPA's P3 Award* *Tuesday, May 9, 2006 (9:00 am - 5:00 pm) and Wednesday, May 10, 2006 (9:00 am - 3:00 pm)* *National Mall (between 3rd and 4th Streets)* The* Environmental and Energy Study Institute (EESI)* cordially invites you to attend the National Sustainable Design Expo on the National Mall *May 9 and 10* to see cutting-edge sustainable technologies developed by university students and their faculty advisors. The Expo will also include exhibits by nonprofit organizations and government agencies that are working to advance sustainability and industry professionals who will demonstrate sustainable products that are currently available in the marketplace. More than 350 college and university students from across the nation will be competing at the Expo for the EPA's Second Annual P3 (People, Prosperity, Planet) Award. The highest-rated design will receive a grant of up to $75,000 to help the winning team bring their sustainable design innovation to market. Students participating in the Expo will showcase their novel designs for super-efficient green buildings, production of alternative fuel technologies, rainwater collection systems, and frameworks for manufacturing products like clothing and prescription drugs more sustainably. Representatives from various companies, nonprofit organizations and government agencies will also display products and practices they are employing to reduce their environmental footprint and improve prospects for people, prosperity and the planet. We encourage you to take a tour of the exhibits on the Mall to view innovations that can help teach Americans how we can meet energy needs in a cleaner, more efficient and sustainable way. The Environmental and Energy Study Institute (EESI), the National Council for Science and the Environment (NCSE) and The American Chemical Society Green Chemistry Institute's (GCI) are co-sponsoring EPA's National Sustainable Design Expo. Forty-two organizations have partnered with the EPA to organize the P3 competition and awards. For a full list of partners, exhibitors and other details about the National Sustainable Design Expo, including the projects designed by each student team, visit _*www.epa.gov/p3*_ http://www.epa.gov/p3. _*National Sustainable Design Expo Agenda*_ * Tuesday, May 9, 2006* 9:00 am - 9:30 am Welcome and Opening Ceremony 9:30 am - 4:45 pm Exhibits Open to the Public; Judging of University Displays 4:45 pm - 5:00 pm Closing Ceremony *Wednesday, May 10, 2006* 9:00 am - 9:10 am Opening Remarks 9:10 am - 3:00 pm Exhibits Open to the Public; Judging of University Displays 12:00 pm - 3:00 pm Exhibits Open to the Public 6:00 pm - 8:00 pm EPA P3 Awards Ceremony Reception - hosted by the Green Chemistry Institute at the National Academies of Science Building, Washington DC /(Only registered exhibitors and students will be admitted)/ _*Participating Universities *_Appalachian State University California Polytechnic State University - San Luis Obispo Carnegie Mellon University, University of Pittsburgh - Main Campus Clarkson University Drexel University Duke University Eastern Illinois University Gonzaga University Iowa State University, Federal University of Vicosa Iowa State University Lafayette College* Louisiana State University - Baton Rouge Massachusetts Institute of Technology New Jersey Institute of Technology New Mexico State University Northern Illinois University Ohio Northern University Oklahoma State University, Green Blue Institute* Portland State University Rutgers University Stanford University Texas A M University Trinity University* Tufts University University of California - Riverside University of Cincinnati University of Colorado at Boulder* University of Florida University of Iowa, Iowa Department of Natural Resources University of Kentucky University of Massachusetts - Lowell University of Michigan - Ann Arbor* University of Missouri - Rolla University of Texas at El Paso University of Virginia Virginia Wesleyan College * Two teams from the university are participating. Please contact Theresa Murzyn, Environmental and Energy Study Institute (202-662-1884), [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] with any questions or comments. Feel free to forward this notice. /### /The* Environmental and Energy Study Institute* is a non-profit organization established in 1984 by a bipartisan, bicameral group of members of Congress to provide timely information on energy and environmental policy issues to policymakers and stakeholders and develop innovative policy solutions that set us on a cleaner, more secure and sustainable energy path. Please click _here_ http://www.eesi.org/briefings/form.htm
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Dear Mikes, I'm on to you with wonderful Schumacher, what a delight. With your neighbours, what IS their problem. This would clearly be an unpleasant experience, first thing in the morning, when you step out to sm the flowers. Now, me, my rainbarrels are municipally supplied!!! The neighbourhood kids think it's so fun to come over and get wet! I don't really know how to be sunny about your neighbourly disparity, but humm, there must be some common ground somewhere. What do THEY like to do? Play crib? Further, I feel your presidential aspirations are entirely appropriate. Jesse On May 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial- scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
NOT TRUE! The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think all is lost. If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the 60's. One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike Keith, Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, And the one before, and the next one. But which president didn't? It's just a matter of degree of in-your-faceness. The Business Party wins every time. 'It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party, with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business.' - Noam Chomsky That is hardly unique to the US. and a HUGE group of us USers (I hate the term American - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't exist) We've discussed that before. But it's worldwide usage. I don't think it causes much confusion, Washington, Americans, North Americans, everybody understands that. are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight his programs. Huge? You (collectively) were outmanoeuvred 30 years ago and you've hardly got a thing right since, you didn't see anything coming. You weren't even easy meat for Bushco, there wasn't any need to take any notice of you at all. The left or whatever you want to call it has been pathetic, and still is. My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are the lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. No one I know is in favor of torture, Of course they're not. and if you follow the news in the US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. thing, not an American thing. The School of the Americas, eg? If all you want is to get things back the way they were before Bushco, then you're liable to have another Bushco ere long. Business-as-usual over the last 60 years is what has to go, not just Bushco. Particularly with foreign policy. Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it fixed. We are, and our numbers are growing each day! Good! But, nationwide, what you see is silence, people looking the other way, compliance. Torture rates as a minor issue or a non-issue. Rice and Bolton et al can still deny that it happens and get away with it. After three and a half years! If you were a torture victim, you'd still be waiting patiently all this time would you? It's two years since congress was treated to three hours of slides and videos of US troops abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib, yet your leaders can still deny it happens. Not exactly under a lot of pressure, are they? There is no indication of meaningful action by the US government to remedy the situation and prevent further abuse. -- Amnesty International Americans are waking up in large numbers, at long last, and maybe it's not even too late, but it hasn't reached the torture issue yet. You can still say nobody cares, and people do say that. Of course there are exceptions, there always are. I'm not knocking you Mike, nor the efforts of any and all who oppose power and brute force, I'm sure you know that. But I don't think you've made a dent in anything I said. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0106-26.htm Published on Thursday, January 6, 2005 by New York Times We Are All Torturers Now http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/050214fa_fact6 The New Yorker Outsourcing Torture The secret history of America's extraordinary rendition program by JANE MAYER Issue of 2005-02-14 On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture. And he's still there, eh? Most Americans haven't got a clue what they look the other way
Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources...
Thanks Keith. There's the smallest chance we will achieve our goal! Okay, an enormous chance, thanks to the information we have here in the archives and due to your good will. We're attending Joe's workshop in June and will forthwith be ridiculously irritating on-list, I'm sure. Cheers, Jesse From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 08:56:44 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... Hi Jesse Hi Keith, Tom, Thanks again for this useful information. But please, on the Super Easy Titration Chart: what lye water? Lye mixed with water, okay sure, but no, wait, how much water? I'm very confused. Jesse It means millilitres of 0.1% NaOH solution, which is what's used in titration to find out how much lye (NaOH) is needed to neutralise the extra Free Fatty Acids (FFA) in the oil. The longer and hotter the oil is cooked the more FFA it contains. More about lye How much lye to use? Basic titration Better titration http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Best Keith This US chart, a Super Easy Titration Table for making biodiesel, classifies less than 1.5 ml as Great Oil, 1.5 to 2.5 as Good Oil, 2.5 to 3.5 as Marginal Oil and 3.5 to 4.5 as Poor Oil. http://www.diyfuel.com/TitrationTable.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
I just want to say that it's an honor, Sir, to share a list with you. Michael Redler wrote: Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family). :-) - Redler */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
We're a small bunch now mostly due to my time-constraints - I wanted to see if it is possible to live without petro. It is. But, I have a small house and am handy, and have friends that help. I would really like to get off the grid a la Zeke but haven't finished the work - I'm close. I think I could make 300 - 400 gallons a week and not really bother anyone. I don't now because I don't drive much and my car gets 50 mpg. I'm stuck in suburbia for 9 more years then I'm moving out to somewhere with land. I live in a small house in a sea of mansions and SUV's - but not by choice. MK DuPree wrote: Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
They like: BIG cars. Perfect lawns - CHEMLAWN SUVS Huge houses Vinyl siding Endless structured activities for the kids (Jeez, give them a rest once in a while) working until 8 pm every night to afford the above I tried all that: Monkey suit, real job, long hours big(er) house, big car (diesel Benz), it doesn't work for me. I'm happier doing what I do. That's why me and Keith are so rich. ;-) Another Mike Mark Manchester wrote: Dear Mikes, I'm on to you with wonderful Schumacher, what a delight. With your neighbours, what IS their problem. This would clearly be an unpleasant experience, first thing in the morning, when you step out to sm the flowers. Now, me, my rainbarrels are municipally supplied!!! The neighbourhood kids think it's so fun to come over and get wet! I don't really know how to be sunny about your neighbourly disparity, but humm, there must be some common ground somewhere. What do THEY like to do? Play crib? Further, I feel your presidential aspirations are entirely appropriate. Jesse On May 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial- scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole
Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources...
Mark, Keith is pulling your leg. Lie water is what George W. drinks for breakfast every morning. mark manchester wrote: Thanks Keith. There's the smallest chance we will achieve our goal! Okay, an enormous chance, thanks to the information we have here in the archives and due to your good will. We're attending Joe's workshop in June and will forthwith be ridiculously irritating on-list, I'm sure. Cheers, Jesse From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 08:56:44 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... Hi Jesse Hi Keith, Tom, Thanks again for this useful information. But please, on the Super Easy Titration Chart: what lye water? Lye mixed with water, okay sure, but no, wait, how much water? I'm very confused. Jesse It means millilitres of 0.1% NaOH solution, which is what's used in titration to find out how much lye (NaOH) is needed to neutralise the extra Free Fatty Acids (FFA) in the oil. The longer and hotter the oil is cooked the more FFA it contains. More about lye How much lye to use? Basic titration Better titration http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Best Keith This US chart, a Super Easy Titration Table for making biodiesel, classifies less than 1.5 ml as Great Oil, 1.5 to 2.5 as Good Oil, 2.5 to 3.5 as Marginal Oil and 3.5 to 4.5 as Poor Oil. http://www.diyfuel.com/TitrationTable.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
My semi-continuous processor should be operational in about 3-4 weeks. 18 litre capacity, estimated production of 3 litres per 5 minuites. In the UK the environment agency insist on expensive waste management licenses if you produce diesel in batches exceeding 100 litres, but have no regulations limiting the storage of WVO or biodiesel. I am trying to increase my production without falling out of this loophole. If all goes well I should be able to scale up 500% and produce 3 litres per minuite without being naughty in the E.Agencies eyes! Has anyone been using this sugar/acid catalyst thats all the talk at the moment on various forums? Just wondering how people are finding it. I am VERY interested in the sugar catalyst as it appears to produce zero soap. It esterifies as well as transesterify so yield/waste ratio should be significantly higher. A friend tried a small batch and it reacted much quicker than with lye and after seperation the catalyst fell out to be re-used (doesnt dissolve in the mix and is filtered out) and the diesel produced was bottled with water, shaken for several minuites and then after rapid seperation the water was clear. Sounds too good to be true but it seems to be! No more premix catalyst, no more titration, no more washing, no more soap! Hmm... I need to try some I think. It can also be home made! Also I can see advantages with regard the byproduct. Am I correct in saying that the soap is causing the problem with burning the byproduct as a heating fuel? If so then maybe using this method it can be preheated and fed through a waste oil heater, or a mother earth burner? I feel we need to all start doing some experiments with this catalyst and gain as much info as possible as I feel it could be a significant step forwards as long as there are no problems. Having a 2nd hand oven delivered tomorrow to start cooking some sugar to try. Chris Bennett.. I am not suffering from insanity, I am loving every minuite of it! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Ack, chemlawn!! I see their trucks coming out here now that it's spring. To me, that's the worst possible marketing thing you could do, but I guess it works...There's also an add on the radio asking whether you'd prefer the yard with bird sounds, or the one with playing kids (getting cancer and endocrinological imbalances from playing in the chemlawn, presumably). Personally, I like the lawns that are natural meadows, grass and wildflowers and weeds, not mowed or watered and believe it or not, kids can still play in them. Although if I have to say I'd sort of like to try the perfect uniform lawn look if I was in the right neighborhood -- in bright purple astroturf just to annoy the neighbors while following the letter of the law... Z On 5/4/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They like: BIG cars. Perfect lawns - CHEMLAWN SUVS Huge houses Vinyl siding Endless structured activities for the kids (Jeez, give them a rest once in a while) working until 8 pm every night to afford the above I tried all that: Monkey suit, real job, long hours big(er) house, big car (diesel Benz), it doesn't work for me. I'm happier doing what I do. That's why me and Keith are so rich. ;-) Another Mike Mark Manchester wrote: Dear Mikes, I'm on to you with wonderful Schumacher, what a delight. With your neighbours, what IS their problem. This would clearly be an unpleasant experience, first thing in the morning, when you step out to sm the flowers. Now, me, my rainbarrels are municipally supplied!!! The neighbourhood kids think it's so fun to come over and get wet! I don't really know how to be sunny about your neighbourly disparity, but humm, there must be some common ground somewhere. What do THEY like to do? Play crib? Further, I feel your presidential aspirations are entirely appropriate. Jesse On May 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial- scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
theres an idea. dont HIRE our presidents, CONSCRIPT them. then we have someone who just wants to get it over with and go home. then there will be very little actual politicking, just straight business. - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Redler for President I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.2/330 - Release Date: 5/3/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
We have annoyed our neighbours repeatedly with musical evenings Perhaps this would only widen the gap for you? but it has been fun for us... Bring yer guitars and a songbook doesn't hurt, because it's difficult if we don't actally remember any WORDS to any songs, that is essential. Percussion instruments are handy, even if they are lentils to shake in a jar... Watermelon may be essential also, I'm not sure. Important to have a kids' activity, also, like maybe lots of coloured markers or crayons, and a mural of paper. Usually, in my experience, they sing. Jesse From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 16:33:17 -0400 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List They like: BIG cars. Perfect lawns - CHEMLAWN SUVS Huge houses Vinyl siding Endless structured activities for the kids (Jeez, give them a rest once in a while) working until 8 pm every night to afford the above I tried all that: Monkey suit, real job, long hours big(er) house, big car (diesel Benz), it doesn't work for me. I'm happier doing what I do. That's why me and Keith are so rich. ;-) Another Mike Mark Manchester wrote: Dear Mikes, I'm on to you with wonderful Schumacher, what a delight. With your neighbours, what IS their problem. This would clearly be an unpleasant experience, first thing in the morning, when you step out to sm the flowers. Now, me, my rainbarrels are municipally supplied!!! The neighbourhood kids think it's so fun to come over and get wet! I don't really know how to be sunny about your neighbourly disparity, but humm, there must be some common ground somewhere. What do THEY like to do? Play crib? Further, I feel your presidential aspirations are entirely appropriate. Jesse On May 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial- scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
With some sort of per gallon fuel discount for gallons of good quality oil (WVO, SVO, crop mass, whatever) donated to the fuel production measure...it's crossed my mind a few times. Ryan From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:27:44 -0500 Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance? Please
Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources...
Yipers, so THAT's why 'Commander-In-Chiefwas cancelled. -J From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 16:34:44 -0400 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... Mark, Keith is pulling your leg. Lie water is what George W. drinks for breakfast every morning. mark manchester wrote: Thanks Keith. There's the smallest chance we will achieve our goal! Okay, an enormous chance, thanks to the information we have here in the archives and due to your good will. We're attending Joe's workshop in June and will forthwith be ridiculously irritating on-list, I'm sure. Cheers, Jesse From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 08:56:44 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Filtering - was Re: Vegtable oil sources... Hi Jesse Hi Keith, Tom, Thanks again for this useful information. But please, on the Super Easy Titration Chart: what lye water? Lye mixed with water, okay sure, but no, wait, how much water? I'm very confused. Jesse It means millilitres of 0.1% NaOH solution, which is what's used in titration to find out how much lye (NaOH) is needed to neutralise the extra Free Fatty Acids (FFA) in the oil. The longer and hotter the oil is cooked the more FFA it contains. More about lye How much lye to use? Basic titration Better titration http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Best Keith This US chart, a Super Easy Titration Table for making biodiesel, classifies less than 1.5 ml as Great Oil, 1.5 to 2.5 as Good Oil, 2.5 to 3.5 as Marginal Oil and 3.5 to 4.5 as Poor Oil. http://www.diyfuel.com/TitrationTable.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
they are discussing the sugar catalyst in detail at http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/9771067631/p/1 if i am reading these people's experiences right, the catalyst is made by partially breaking down a sugar molecule by heating it, and then introducing an acid (H2SO4). this creates a nanobot of sorts by attatching the acidic molecules to the pyrolized sugar near a basic branch, giving us the acid/base process on an infinitely small scale repeated trillions of times per second, and barely depleting the catalyst (theyre still debating useful lifespans of the material). i cannot vouch for any of these statements as true or false, but with all the research going on around the subject, and the fact that these people have attempted it, then it may have an extreme value if not interest. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] distilling fuel/reactant ethanol
i had another thought, (scary huh?) these are the presumptions this idea revolves around: 1. exposing a substance to vacuum lowers the boiling point 2. a substance under vacuum vaporizes more quickly than at atmospheric pressure 3. excess energy or energy byproduct (normally lost) tapped from another source to produce vacuum qualifies as a low cost, if not (net, at least) free expenditure. if one were to apply vacuum to a castor based alcohol refinery, the heat required would be considerably less, therefore the front-end energy requirements would be less. does it make sense to use this to speed the vaporization process, or am i just lost? AND all the permit applications and tax references i have looked up, at least in the US, require fuel grade alcohol to be denatured at a minimum of at least 5% to qualify for the alcohol tax exemption(not sales or road taxes ). can castor oil be used as a denaturant? unless taken in large amounts it is generally not harmful to humans, it is biodegradeable, and as we discussed previously, it dissolves in alcohol. as an added bonus, drinking castor treated alcohol should in theory make a person violently ill with very few lasting side effects (i think the threat -even percieved- of violent diarrhea and vomiting would be a powerful deterrent to drinking the stuff anyway.) I can feel the laser dots on my forehead already... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Hello Mike Weaver NOT TRUE! True. The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. You miss the point. There's no need to cheat if the whole charade is a shell game anyway. I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. You're IN a corporatocracy. But that's no reason to throw in the towel either. I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. Of course there's hope, perhaps more now than ever before. Look it in the face, no need to rose-tint it, you might find more hope there than you think. I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think all is lost. If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the 60's. One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Can you explain to me how that applies to domestic opposition to US torture. Or how it applies to the shambles of Progressive opposition during the last 30 years. It's a noble attempt to stick a band-aid over it. I said I wasn't belittling your efforts, and you know it's true. But please don't evade the issue and then chuck stuff like this at me. Stop trying to paint me as negative while you squirm to get off the hook. You say you've been out fighting all this time along with the huge number of Americans who are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can. Happily accepted, but what efforts have you put into campaigning against US torture? Insert from previous: It's also said it's our imaginations that keep us human, the ability to live a thousand lives. So use it - put yourself and your feelings inside someone who's screaming themselves to death while mad torturers laugh and jeer and do everything they can to make it worse. See how much you can take even just trying to imagine it, let alone have it happen to you. Then make excuses, if you still want to. Try to put yourself inside one of the torturers too, see how only human it is. Like hell it is. Did you try it Mike, and you're still prevaricating? Why am I having to re-focus you on the topic? Twice now. But, nationwide, what you see is silence, people looking the other way, compliance. Torture rates as a minor issue or a non-issue. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0106-26.htm Published on Thursday, January 6, 2005 by New York Times We Are All Torturers Now Namaste Keith Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike Keith, Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, And the one before, and the next one. But which president didn't? It's just a matter of degree of in-your-faceness. The Business Party wins every time. 'It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party, with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business.' - Noam Chomsky That is hardly unique to the US. and a HUGE group of us USers (I hate the term American - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't exist) We've discussed that before. But it's worldwide usage. I don't think it causes much confusion, Washington, Americans, North Americans, everybody understands that. are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight his programs. Huge? You (collectively) were outmanoeuvred 30 years ago and you've hardly got a thing right since, you didn't see anything coming. You weren't even easy meat for Bushco, there wasn't any need to take any notice of you at all. The left or whatever you want to call it has been pathetic, and still is. My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are the lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. No one I know is in favor of torture, Of course they're not. and if you follow the news in the US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. thing, not an American thing. The School of the Americas, eg? If all you want is to get things back the way they were before Bushco, then you're liable to have another Bushco
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
theres an idea. dont HIRE our presidents, CONSCRIPT them. then we have someone who just wants to get it over with and go home. then there will be very little actual politicking, just straight business. He/she'd be assassinated. If I were the president, I could stop terrorist attacks against the United States in a few days. Permanently. I would first apologize -- very publicly and very sincerely -- to all the widows and the orphans, the impoverished and the tortured, and all the many millions of other victims of American imperialism. I would then announce that America's global interventions -- including the awful bombings -- have come to an end. And I would inform Israel that it is no longer the 51st state of the union but -- oddly enough -- a foreign country. I would then reduce the military budget by at least 90% and use the savings to pay reparations to the victims and repair the damage from the many American bombings and invasions. There would be more than enough money. Do you know what one year of the US military budget is equal to? One year. It's equal to more than $20,000 per hour for every hour since Jesus Christ was born. That's what I'd do on my first three days in the White House. On the fourth day, I'd be assassinated. -- Bill Blum Keith - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Redler for President I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Some students at Wake Forest University in North Carolina used a sugar based catalyst as a pretreat step before base transesterification. Here are their blog posts on the results of the experiment. (http://wfubiofuels.blogspot.com/) Tuesday, November 29, 2005 Sugar Catalyzed Reaction Recently there has been a lot of buzz by a Japanese group’s solid acid catalyst made from sugar (Nature, vol. 438, p 178, 2005). They reported converting FFA’s to the ethyl esters. This catalysis is special because it is hydrophobic and consists of sheets of fused rings with covalently attached SO3H groups. Our group decided to make some and see how well it works. Making the catalysis was easy. We took 2 g of sucrose and heated at 400C for 15 hours under nitrogen. The remaining 0.5 g (loss of mass is due to dehydration of the sugars) was ground and heated to 150C in concentrated H2SO4 for 15 hours under nitrogen. After washing and drying, the yield was 0.61g (about a 30% mass return from the starting amount of sucrose) From reading (Ind. Eng. Chem. Res. 2005, 44, 5353-5363) about solid acid catalyst we saw where most reactions were using 1 to 5% catalyst by weight. Also the WVO we are using is not tremendously high in FFA based on some initial titrations. So the rational for using this catalysis was to convert any FFA’s to the methyl ester in a fashion that would make the subsequent base step much easier. We also wanted to see if this reaction could also be used to convert the oil over to the FAME. This would mean using a large excess of MeOH. Here were the conditions: 12 g WVO 12 g MeOH (100% by weight, large excess to try to push oil over to ester) 0.6 g Cat (5% by weight or about 40 g/L) Heat at 75 C for 12hours (again long reaction time for the oil to convert) After heating, the reaction was filtered and the catalyst was washed with 20 mL THF and 20 mL hexanes. Solvent was removed by rotary evaporation. The pale yellow oil was centrifuged for 15 min yielding a small pellet of glycerin. So workup is very easy. The small amount of glycerin instantly indicated that the most of the oil did NOT convert over to the ester as wished. Using 13C NMR and comparing to authentic samples we could see that the major component was oil with a small (~10% to 15%) amount of FAME. Actually more FAME than I expected so maybe some of the FFA’s were converted over? So it looks like it worked so far. I suppose the real test will be the behavior of the “pretreated” oil under base conditions? If the FFA’s were indeed converted over to the methyl ester then the base step should be much easier to process. So next is to setup a base catalyzed reaction and see how it behaves. Tuesday, December 13, 2005 UPDATE: Sugar Catalyzed Reaction We already know the feed stock oil requires 8 to 9g/L of NaOH when used as is. But after pretreatment with the sugar catalyst I regarded it as virgin oil. I used 3.5g/L of NaOH and 25% by volume MeOH. I heated to 65 C for 3 hours under nitrogen. I also used a reflux condenser to stop MeOH loss. I separated the glycerin off and washed three times with dilute HCl. Then a final water wash. I did not see a lot of emulsion unless I used distilled water??? The washed product was heated to 60 C and allowed to cool overnight. The FAME was transparent and light amber in color. I performed a GC analysis and it passed the GC test. So at least on a small scale (10 g oil) the pre-treatment shows promise. I suspose how well this works for a range of FFA levels as well as how scale effects matters remains to be seen. Now that classes are over I want to try making a few more acid and base heterogeneous catalysis. ~leif ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
