Re: [Biofuel] What is happening?

[Doug Younker]

Heh! Hakan, are you one of those individuals that can't handle silence? 
:)  In the event you are don't worry I have never seen it last long
Doug

Hakan Falk wrote:
 I never, I never saw so little activities on the list before. Missing it.
 
 Hakan

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Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt

[Kirk McLoren]

Probably that is their plan. If we eliminated corporate welfare the US could enjoy a golden age but presently she is riddled with parasites. The social welfare they will eliminate was purchased by the poor but they will probably be robbed again. Sigh. I heard an interesting statistic. Only 5% of psychopaths are in prison. Most are in government and business and tend to be very successful. I suppose having no limits is helpful in those occupations. This study is real - not a joke.Kirk[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Part of the cure might be to eliminate all social-welfare spending.I suspect that this has been part of the right-wing fanatics' plan for the last quarter century.Then, inflation has long been a cure for debt. It takes from the middle class who are wont
 to hold paper assets, and gives to the equity-holders; the rich.Doug WoodardSt. Catharines, Ontario, CanadaOn Fri, 14 Jul 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/07/14/cnusa14.xml US 'could be going bankrupt' By Edmund Conway, Economics Editor (Filed: 14/07/2006) 
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Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt

[Jason Katie]

you dont need money if you can supply a need. i know more than just fuel, i 
can build just about anything a person would have as a daily need. house, 
furniture, small macines, engine repair, anyone with a skill is pretty well 
safe. it is the people who have never had to work a day in their life (CEO's 
and politicians) that are screwed.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt


 Um, it's not really they it's us too...

 Jason Katie wrote:

 good. its about time. if i were to spend money like that, and then
 piddle away my savings and retirement, i would have been bankrupt 2 or
 3 times in the last year, so why should they get away with it?

 Jason
 ICQ#:  154998177
 MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 - Original Message -
 *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2006 6:04 PM
 *Subject:* [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going
 bankrupt

 
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/07/14/cnusa14.xml

 US 'could be going bankrupt'
 By Edmund Conway, Economics Editor
 (Filed: 14/07/2006)


 The United States is heading for bankruptcy, according to an
 extraordinary paper published by one of the key members of the
 country's central bank.
 A ballooning budget deficit and a pensions and welfare timebomb
 could send! the economic superpower into insolvency, according to
 research by Professor Laurence Kotlikoff for the Federal Reserve
 Bank of St Louis, a leading constituent of the US Federal Reserve.
 Prof Kotlikoff said that, by some measures, the US is already
 bankrupt. To paraphrase the Oxford English Dictionary, is the
 United States at the end of its resources, exhausted, stripped
 bare, destitute, bereft, wanting in property, or wrecked in
 consequence of failure to pay its creditors, he asked.
 According to his central analysis, the US government is, indeed,
 bankrupt, insofar as it will be unable to pay its creditors, who,
 in this context, are current and future generations to whom it has
 explicitly or implicitly promised future net payments of various
 kinds''.
 The budget deficit in the US is not massive. The Bush
 administration this week cut its forecasts for the fiscal
 shortfall this year by almost a third, saying it will come in at
 2.3pc of gross domestic product. This is smaller than most
 European countries - including the UK - which have deficits north
 of 3pc of GDP.
 Prof Kotlikoff, who teaches at Boston University, says: The
 proper way to consider a country's solvency is to examine the
 lifetime fiscal burdens facing current and future generations. If
 these burdens exceed the resources of those generations, get close
 to doing so, or simply get so high as to preclude their full
 collection, the country's policy will be unsustainable and can
 constitute or lead to national bankruptcy.
 Does the United States fit this bill? No one knows for sure, but
 there are strong reasons to believe the United States may be going
 broke.
 Experts have calculated that the country's long-term fiscal gap
 between all future government spending and all future receipts
 will widen immensely as the Baby Boomer generation retires, and as
 the amount the state will have to spend on healthcare and pensions
 soars. The total fiscal gap could be an almost incomprehensible
 $65.9 trillion, according to a study by Professors Gokhale and
 Smetters.
 The figure is massive because President George W Bush has made
 major tax cuts in recent years, and because the bill for Medicare,
 which provides health insurance for the elderly, and Medicaid,
 which does likewise for the poor, will increase greatly due to
 demographics.
 Prof Kotlikoff said: This figure is more than five times US GDP
 and almost twice the size of national wealth. One way to wrap
 one's head around $65.9trillion is to ask what fiscal adjustments
 are needed to eliminate this red hole. The answers are terrifying.
 One solution is an immediate and permanent doubling of personal
 and corporate income taxes. Another is an immediate and permanent
 two-thirds cut in Social Security and Medicare benefits. A third
 alternative, were it feasible, would be to immediately and
 permanently cut all federal discretionary spending by 143pc.
 The scenario has serious implications for the dollar. If investors
 lose confidence in the US's future, and suspect the country may at
 some point allow inflation to erode away its debts, they may
 reduce their 

Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt

[Kirk McLoren]

A lot of things have to stay functional. Power, roads, fuel, water and food to name a few. People who live in cities have few alternatives. Also elderly and very young.  The bulk of the suffering will be borne by thepoor - the corporate and governmental psychopaths have the money to go elsewhere to their villas.KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  you dont need money if you can supply a need. i know more than just fuel, i can build just about anything a person would have as a daily need. house, furniture, small macines, engine repair, anyone with a skill is pretty well safe. it is the people who have never had to work a day in their life (CEO's and politicians) that are screwed.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message
 - From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:01 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US "could be going bankrupt" Um, it's not really "they" it's "us" too... Jason Katie wrote: good. its about time. if i were to spend money like that, and then piddle away my savings and retirement, i would have been bankrupt 2 or 3 times in the last year, so why should they get away with it? Jason 
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Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt

[Jason Katie]

if the us government admits it is bankrupt, the dollar will be bunk. noone 
will want it, or if they do accept it, the exchange rate will be horrifying, 
all those millions of dollars they have squirreled away will be worth 
tens, maybe hundreds if they are lucky. all of this because noone has any 
reason to come to us other than to exploit our weakness, as we have to 
others for so long. made in america will be equivalent to what Made in 
Japan meant sixty years ago. well be making cocktail umbrellas for less 
than minimum wage because we have no other option. cities will bcome rattier 
and even more degenerate than they are, and there will most likely be food 
riots, and street battles between the authorities and civilian dissidents. 
think about every high power that has ever fallen face first, and what 
happened in the aftermath. it wont be pretty. as for people in the cities 
they have alternatives, they just dont use them wether through not knowing 
or just plain stupidity, mostly because they wont approach anyone to ask 
them. the elderly and the young will most likely be helped by their families 
and friends either through love or common decency.

Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Kirk McLoren
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt


A lot of things have to stay functional. Power, roads, fuel, water and food 
to name a few. People who live in cities have few alternatives. Also elderly 
and very young.
The bulk of the suffering will be borne by the poor - the corporate and 
governmental psychopaths have the money to go elsewhere to their villas.

Kirk

Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
you dont need money if you can supply a need. i know more than just fuel, i
can build just about anything a person would have as a daily need. house,
furniture, small macines, engine repair, anyone with a skill is pretty well
safe. it is the people who have never had to work a day in their life (CEO's
and politicians) that are screwed.
Jason
ICQ#: 154998177
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver
To:
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt


 Um, it's not really they it's us too...

 Jason Katie wrote:

 good. its about time. if i were to spend money like that, and then
 piddle away my savings and retirement, i would have been bankrupt 2 or
 3 times in the last year, so why should they get away with it?

 Jason




Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates 
starting at 1¢/min.



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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt

[Kirk McLoren]

"they" understand this better than most of us and I assure you the crash of the dollar will be an opportunity to them. They will purchase real assets for pennies. "They" steal it all back so they can then sell it back to us for another generations labor. We are hamsters or "coppertops". A consumable.KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  if the us government admits it is bankrupt, the dollar will be bunk. noone will want it, or if they do accept it, the exchange rate will be horrifying, all those millions of dollars "they" have squirreled away will be worth tens, maybe hundreds if they are lucky. all of this because noone has any reason to come to us other than to exploit our weakness, as we have to others for so long. "made in america" will be equivalent to what "Made in
 Japan" meant sixty years ago. well be making cocktail umbrellas for less than minimum wage because we have no other option. cities will bcome rattier and even more degenerate than they are, and there will most likely be food riots, and street battles between the authorities and civilian dissidents. think about every high power that has ever fallen face first, and what happened in the aftermath. it wont be pretty. as for people in the cities they have alternatives, they just dont use them wether through not knowing or just plain stupidity, mostly because they wont approach anyone to ask them. the elderly and the young will most likely be helped by their families and friends either through love or common decency.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 1:32 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel]
 {Disarmed} Telegraph - US "could be going bankrupt"A lot of things have to stay functional. Power, roads, fuel, water and food to name a few. People who live in cities have few alternatives. Also elderly and very young.The bulk of the suffering will be borne by the poor - the corporate and governmental psychopaths have the money to go elsewhere to their villas.Kirk 
		Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___
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Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt

[MK DuPree]

Whatever "we" may "be" to 
"them," who what when where why and howI am to myself 
iswhatmatters most, not just to me, but to everyone else too. 
So whatever else I might say is really for me, and you can read it if you want 
or not, it doesn't matter, unless it does to you. For myself, I'm 
accepting my hamsterhood, but not as a mindless hamster. I'm a hamster 
that knows he's a hamster. As such, I'm asking myself how can I best 
position myselfand mymost immediate loved ones for what's coming to 
the extent that I can know what's coming.Every piece of information, 
every opinion, every whatever that comes to my attention, I try to receive and 
process as an answer to my question of how do Iposition myself for what's 
coming. But that question is within a context: given I'd like to maintain 
some semblance of what is to me a relatively basic lifestyle (which isn't basic 
at all considering I have running tap water, an indoortoilet that runs to 
a sewer [that runs towhere I choose not to think about], lights (and 
various applicances),cable lines for my TV and internet access, and I 
haven't even walked outside to my garage),I guess the answer begins with 
an answer to the question,HowcanI position 
myself? Factor in how much will be decided for me., and I'm not sure what 
it is I'm really left with. Will I need bars on my 
windows?Shall I plan on waiting in line for long hours for a grain 
of rice? Will I be reduced to absolute hamsterdom?I'm going 
for a walk. Mike DuPree

- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Kirk 
  McLoren 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 2:04 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} 
  Telegraph - US "could be going bankrupt"
  
  "they" understand this better than most of us and I assure you the crash 
  of the dollar will be an opportunity to them. They will purchase real assets 
  for pennies. "They" steal it all back so they can then sell it back to us for 
  another generations labor. We are hamsters or "coppertops". A 
consumable.
  
  KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  if 
the us government admits it is bankrupt, the dollar will be bunk. noone 
will want it, or if they do accept it, the exchange rate will be 
horrifying, all those millions of dollars "they" have squirreled away 
will be worth tens, maybe hundreds if they are lucky. all of this 
because noone has any reason to come to us other than to exploit our 
weakness, as we have to others for so long. "made in america" will be 
equivalent to what "Made in Japan" meant sixty years ago. well be making 
cocktail umbrellas for less than minimum wage because we have no other 
option. cities will bcome rattier and even more degenerate than they 
are, and there will most likely be food riots, and street battles 
between the authorities and civilian dissidents. think about every high 
power that has ever fallen face first, and what happened in the 
aftermath. it wont be pretty. as for people in the cities they have 
alternatives, they just dont use them wether through not knowing or just 
plain stupidity, mostly because they wont approach anyone to ask them. 
the elderly and the young will most likely be helped by their families 
and friends either through love or common decency.JasonICQ#: 
154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - 
From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: 
Saturday, July 15, 2006 1:32 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} 
Telegraph - US "could be going bankrupt"A lot of things have to 
stay functional. Power, roads, fuel, water and food to name a few. 
People who live in cities have few alternatives. Also elderly and very 
young.The bulk of the suffering will be borne by the poor - the 
corporate and governmental psychopaths have the money to go elsewhere to 
their villas.Kirk
  
  
  Do you Yahoo!?Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new 
  Yahoo! Mail Beta. 
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt

[Jason Katie]

the only possible flaw i see in your argument is that when a person has 
nearly nothing, they fight that much harder to keep whatever they do have. 
my brother and i had a hamster when we were kids, he was really nice and 
fuzzy and cute until you pissed him off, then he would bite REALLY FRAGGIN' 
HARD! i am generally a nice person (fuzzy maybe, but not very cute) until i 
am pushed. but when you get right down to it, everyone has their limit of 
tolerance for things like this.

Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: MK DuPree
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt


Whatever we may be to them, who what when where why and how I am to 
myself is what matters most, not just to me, but to everyone else too.  So 
whatever else I might say is really for me, and you can read it if you want 
or not, it doesn't matter, unless it does to you.  For myself, I'm accepting 
my hamsterhood, but not as a mindless hamster.  I'm a hamster that knows 
he's a hamster.  As such, I'm asking myself how can I best position myself 
and my most immediate loved ones for what's coming to the extent that I can 
know what's coming.  Every piece of information, every opinion, every 
whatever that comes to my attention, I try to receive and process as an 
answer to my question of how do I position myself for what's coming.  But 
that question is within a context: given I'd like to maintain some semblance 
of what is to me a relatively basic lifestyle (which isn't basic at all 
considering I have running tap water, an indoor toilet that runs to a sewer 
[that runs to where I choose not to think about], lights (and various 
applicances), cable lines for my TV and internet access, and I haven't even 
walked outside to my garage), I guess the answer begins with an answer to 
the question, How can I position myself?  Factor in how much will be decided 
for me., and I'm not sure what it is I'm really left with.  Will I need bars 
on my windows?  Shall I plan on waiting in line for long hours for a grain 
of rice?  Will I be reduced to absolute hamsterdom?  I'm going for a walk. 
Mike DuPree

- Original Message - 
From: Kirk McLoren
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt


they understand this better than most of us and I assure you the crash of 
the dollar will be an opportunity to them. They will purchase real assets 
for pennies. They steal it all back so they can then sell it back to us 
for another generations labor. We are hamsters or coppertops. A 
consumable.

Kirk

Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
if the us government admits it is bankrupt, the dollar will be bunk. noone
will want it, or if they do accept it, the exchange rate will be horrifying,
all those millions of dollars they have squirreled away will be worth
tens, maybe hundreds if they are lucky. all of this because noone has any
reason to come to us other than to exploit our weakness, as we have to
others for so long. made in america will be equivalent to what Made in
Japan meant sixty years ago. well be making cocktail umbrellas for less
than minimum wage because we have no other option. cities will bcome rattier
and even more degenerate than they are, and there will most likely be food
riots, and street battles between the authorities and civilian dissidents.
think about every high power that has ever fallen face first, and what
happened in the aftermath. it wont be pretty. as for people in the cities
they have alternatives, they just dont use them wether through not knowing
or just plain stupidity, mostly because they wont approach anyone to ask
them. the elderly and the young will most likely be helped by their families
and friends either through love or common decency.

Jason
ICQ#: 154998177
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Kirk McLoren
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt


A lot of things have to stay functional. Power, roads, fuel, water and food
to name a few. People who live in cities have few alternatives. Also elderly
and very young.
The bulk of the suffering will be borne by the poor - the corporate and
governmental psychopaths have the money to go elsewhere to their villas.

Kirk





Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.



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[Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Ken Provost]

Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line
700 ft away -- $17000 USD !

Granted, a good standalone system would be at least
twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant
floor heat :-)  Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and
it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum
that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept.

I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts
would be welcome.



-K

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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Jason Katie]

is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i personally 
would start with a 25Kw generator for main power(on BD of course), and then 
next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and cooling with 
geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants), biogas, or 
solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for reliability). it will take 
a while, but after all is said and done, you can call out the PGE surveyor 
and rub it in his face.(oh BTW, show him the total cost and compare his 
first estimate, then tell him to take his 17000 powerline and stick it! ;D )

Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 6:35 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?


 Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line
 700 ft away -- $17000 USD !

 Granted, a good standalone system would be at least
 twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant
 floor heat :-)  Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and
 it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum
 that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept.

 I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts
 would be welcome.



 -K

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 Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006
 



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Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006


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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Fritz Friesinger]

Hi Ken,
how about a 25KVA Genset run on 
Methanegaz?
it seems to me Methane is the Way to go! Why... 
there is the transport and handling of the Biofuel a lot of manpower 
involved!
You can set up a Methaneproduction with your 
Wast,the Bacteria will do the work for you and your own Methaneproduction will 
be put to good use instead of releasing it in the Athmosphere,where it 
contributes to global warming!
with a budget of 17 US grands i would not hesitate 
,its a one time spending,than you are homefree
Fritz

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jason Katie 
  
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 8:33 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to 
  Grid?
  is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i 
  personally would start with a 25Kw generator for main power(on BD of 
  course), and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and 
  cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants), 
  biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for reliability). 
  it will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call out the 
  PGE surveyor and rub it in his face.(oh BTW, show him the total cost and 
  compare his first estimate, then tell him to take his 17000 powerline and 
  stick it! ;D )JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- 
  Original Message - From: "Ken Provost" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: 
  Saturday, July 15, 2006 6:35 PMSubject: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to 
  Grid? Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a 
  power line 700 ft away -- $17000 USD ! Granted, a 
  good standalone system would be at least twice that, given my love of 
  power tools and radiant floor heat :-) 
  Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and it's almost like 
  they priced the connection at the maximum that would still be (barely) 
  advantageous to accept. I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 
  700 feet -- any thoughts would be 
  welcome. -K 
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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Ken Provost]

On Jul 15, 2006, at 5:33 PM, Jason Katie wrote:


 is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i  
 personally
 would start with a 25Kw generator for main power


under $1 so far, and that's 200 amps of 120 VAC! Maybe
even overkill   (it's a single-family dwelling, 1400 sq ft, strawbale,
plus detached strawbale shop). Around here propane would be most
practical -- not great I know, but I wouldn't be able to make enough
biodiesel/methane/whatever.


 and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and
 cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants),
 biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for  
 reliability).


This is sunny logging country (Sierra foothills) so a wood/propane
multifuel boiler for radiant heat, with solar hot water backup, would
be very doable. 3600W PV system with batteries could supplant
the generator more than half the year.


 It will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call  
 out the
 PGE surveyor and rub it in his face.


Oh boy :-)I hadn't really considered relying heavily on a motor- 
generator
(noisy, smelly, polluting, especially in an area where grid power comes
largely from hydro), but I admit the economics are compelling. Something
to think about -- thanks!


-K

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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Mike Weaver]

You need to talk to Zeke.  For those prices, you could fly him out, have 
him build you a system and fly back
and it would be STILL half as much!

Ken Provost wrote:

Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line
700 ft away -- $17000 USD !

Granted, a good standalone system would be at least
twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant
floor heat :-)  Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and
it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum
that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept.

I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts
would be welcome.



-K

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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Ken Provost]

On Jul 15, 2006, at 6:27 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:


 You need to talk to Zeke.  For those prices,
 you could fly him out, have
 him build you a system and fly back
 and it would be STILL half as much!



Yo, Zeke !!   Is that true?  I'm a big believer
in consultants, having been one myself in
the past. One warning, tho -- the bldg. dept.
around here is REALLY up your armpit !!

-K

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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Jason Katie]

the generator would only be a lightly used temporary, and backup supply 
later on, at least that was what i had envisioned.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?



 On Jul 15, 2006, at 5:33 PM, Jason Katie wrote:


 is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i
 personally
 would start with a 25Kw generator for main power


 under $1 so far, and that's 200 amps of 120 VAC! Maybe
 even overkill   (it's a single-family dwelling, 1400 sq ft, strawbale,
 plus detached strawbale shop). Around here propane would be most
 practical -- not great I know, but I wouldn't be able to make enough
 biodiesel/methane/whatever.


 and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and
 cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants),
 biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for
 reliability).


 This is sunny logging country (Sierra foothills) so a wood/propane
 multifuel boiler for radiant heat, with solar hot water backup, would
 be very doable. 3600W PV system with batteries could supplant
 the generator more than half the year.


 It will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call
 out the
 PGE surveyor and rub it in his face.


 Oh boy :-)I hadn't really considered relying heavily on a motor-
 generator
 (noisy, smelly, polluting, especially in an area where grid power comes
 largely from hydro), but I admit the economics are compelling. Something
 to think about -- thanks!


 -K

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 Checked by AVG Free Edition.
 Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006

 



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Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?

[Kirk McLoren]

you can cogen for 5 cents a kwhr assuming you use the heat.  Hardware is about 5 thousand dollars unless you want an electric stove.  KirkKen Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line700 ft away -- $17000 USD !Granted, a good standalone system would be at leasttwice that, given my love of power tools and radiantfloor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, andit's almost like they priced the connection at the maximumthat would still be (barely) advantageous to accept.I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughtswould be welcome.-K___Biofuel mailing
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