[Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ? Jan W -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/d8f33aed/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
Haven't really heard either way. I have heard lots of rumors about quite a few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of any of them right now. And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what iodine numbers they were running. Z On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ? Jan W -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/d8f33aed/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/89a2786f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan]
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Ivan Menchero [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: BTW how come the electric vehicle do not have solar panels on their roof? prize? AC/DC problems? Ivan - It's mostly because of power density. An average car, with current solar panel efficiencies, and average electric car efficiencies for a 3000lb car, would get an extra two or three miles a day of extra range from the solar panels on the roof. A large van, maybe two miles a day extra range. It's alot more effective to put the solar panels on the roof of the garage, where you can have alot more area (and not worry about them adding weight to the car, though that's not really that much anyway) and then you can actually have a large enough solar array to provide 30 to 100 miles of range per day of sun -- grid tie the solar array, then charge the car at night from the grid (if the utility will allow that). Average car -- between 250 and 350 watt hours per mile (up to 500 to 800 watt hours per mile for larger vans/trucks). Average power density of a top of the line commercially available solar panel (Sunpower) is about 15 watts per square foot (in full sun -- flat mounted panels on a car roof will be less due to poor sun angle depending on latitude and time of year). If we have 15 square feet of roof area on the car covered, that's only about 200 watts, and assuming a conservative 4 equivalent full sun hours per day, that's 800 watt hours before losses. 80% efficiency of all the electronics round trip is decent, which leaves us with about 650 watts hours per day collected -- about two to three miles of range. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/19a87abe/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
I had a colleague whose MB 320 CDI suddenly broke down due to suspected injection pump scar. When you ask MB owners about this they all say: Neverthis cannot happen with a Mercedes- Benz! As a MB owner myself I am very curious about other´s experiences concerning this.. - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Cc: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz Haven't really heard either way. I have heard lots of rumors about quite a few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of any of them right now. And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what iodine numbers they were running. Z On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ? Jan W -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/d8f33aed/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/89a2786f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
Hi Zeke, Jan and all Haven't really heard either way. I have heard lots of rumors about quite a few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of any of them right now. Maybe they're just rumours, but I think DI diesels might indeed have problems with polymerised biodiesel in the US. But is it because of the high pressures? Can high pressure cause oxidation? I don't know, but it's only from US sources that I ever hear that. Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard upper limit. (See Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine, National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds.) The biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of US Big Soy. Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what sounded like GMO-style substantial equivalence of America's soy and Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less. They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing, high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for soy's shortcomings. Best Keith And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what iodine numbers they were running. Z On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ? Jan W ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
Hello Keith, Zeke and all. If polymerisation is the issue should it be related to the oxidation stability of the BD. It should therefore be important to use anti-oxidants in order to improve the stability. The connection is higher pressure - higher temperatures - quicker polymerisation. And the higher the iodine number the lower stability. Sorry about that, ASTM. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz Hi Zeke, Jan and all Haven't really heard either way. I have heard lots of rumors about quite a few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of any of them right now. Maybe they're just rumours, but I think DI diesels might indeed have problems with polymerised biodiesel in the US. But is it because of the high pressures? Can high pressure cause oxidation? I don't know, but it's only from US sources that I ever hear that. Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard upper limit. (See Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine, National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds.) The biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of US Big Soy. Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what sounded like GMO-style substantial equivalence of America's soy and Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less. They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing, high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for soy's shortcomings. Best Keith And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what iodine numbers they were running. Z On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ? Jan W ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
Hello Keith, Zeke and all. If polymerisation is the issue should it be related to the oxidation stability of the BD. It should therefore be important to use anti-oxidants in order to improve the stability. The connection is higher pressure - higher temperatures - quicker polymerisation. Thankyou Jan. And the higher the iodine number the lower stability. Sorry about that, ASTM. :-) Best Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz Hi Zeke, Jan and all Haven't really heard either way. I have heard lots of rumors about quite a few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of any of them right now. Maybe they're just rumours, but I think DI diesels might indeed have problems with polymerised biodiesel in the US. But is it because of the high pressures? Can high pressure cause oxidation? I don't know, but it's only from US sources that I ever hear that. Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard upper limit. (See Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine, National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds.) The biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of US Big Soy. Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what sounded like GMO-style substantial equivalence of America's soy and Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less. They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing, high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for soy's shortcomings. Best Keith And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what iodine numbers they were running. Z On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ? Jan W ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
Keith, Just out of sheer curiosity, where does the information that Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel come from? I was wondering too, since I cannot find the information even on the NBB (unless I am blind which is never outside the realm of possibility), where might be a good source to look for a list of currently operating biodiesel plant? Ours closed and is in bankruptcy and of the other two in the local area, only one is operating. We couldn't compete even switching to animal fats - and all those inherent processing problems. Of course, the one operating is big-bucks AGP and, yes, uses soy. Hmmm. D'ya think I might have sort of answered my own question here? Although I will say there is a soybean processing coop south of here that ceased production of biodiesel in their facility for at least 6 months last I heard. They sold their soybean oil to AGP during that period. Sigh. Thanks so much! Denise On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard upper limit. (See Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine, National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds.) The biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of US Big Soy. Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what sounded like GMO-style substantial equivalence of America's soy and Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less. They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing, high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for soy's shortcomings. Best Keith ___ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/f1fa8762/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
hello Denise, I think that US BD is more or synonomous with soy biodiesel although it may be a myth. US is the biggest soy producer in the world and that is not a myth. - Original Message - From: denise farley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz Keith, Just out of sheer curiosity, where does the information that Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel come from? I was wondering too, since I cannot find the information even on the NBB (unless I am blind which is never outside the realm of possibility), where might be a good source to look for a list of currently operating biodiesel plant? Ours closed and is in bankruptcy and of the other two in the local area, only one is operating. We couldn't compete even switching to animal fats - and all those inherent processing problems. Of course, the one operating is big-bucks AGP and, yes, uses soy. Hmmm. D'ya think I might have sort of answered my own question here? Although I will say there is a soybean processing coop south of here that ceased production of biodiesel in their facility for at least 6 months last I heard. They sold their soybean oil to AGP during that period. Sigh. Thanks so much! Denise On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard upper limit. (See Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine, National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds.) The biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of US Big Soy. Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what sounded like GMO-style substantial equivalence of America's soy and Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less. They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing, high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for soy's shortcomings. Best Keith ___ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/f1fa8762/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
