Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
Hi Fritz, Thanks for your two posts.I don't think I have anything further to add to the debate other than to say I feel for yourPalestinian friend. My approach was too academic and certainly not acceptable in terms of the very real human crisis which has developed. The current situation is indefensible and - as indicated by the sources suppliedby Keith - even the status quo ante appearsmore and more a legal fiction. Keith is also on the button when he points out thatunless until wecan add more light to this subjectwe are only generatingheat. One minor point: I offered no quotations from the Bible. If you reread my post you will see I carefully avoided that. In the context it wouldn't have been appropriate. I apologise and withdraw. Best wishes, Bob. - Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:14 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs Bob and all, here is an answer of my goog friend Shadi Hadjara,a Christian Palestinenser on your Mail Fritz Actually, the tactic of deploying suicide bombers against Israeli civiliansonly started in 1994 in retaliation to the Hebron Massacre. In March 1994,at the peak of the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians (wherePalestinians were begrudgingly accepting to give away more than 3/4 of theirancestrial land and control over most of their sovreignty over their newlyformed bantustans for peace), a Jewish settler in Hebron sneaks into theHebron mosque during morning prayers. He unloads his automatic rifle on thekneeling crowd killing 4 dozen and injuring another 100. The first suicidebombing took place 3 weeks later.As for rocket attacks, the 1967 six day war resulted in the murder of morethan 20,000 civilians by Israeli missiles. The 1982 three month Israeliinvasion of Lebanon resulted in the massacre of another 20,000 Palestinianand Lebanese civilians by Israel. So please don't squabble over a fewmissiles in the arsenal of resistence groups that only formed to defendtheir respective communities against a murderous enraged rogue state.In the context of what took place in the past, Palestinians would not havefiercely opposed Israel if the Zionist pioneers had decided to create astate in Uganda. The fact is that Israel was created over their land byforcefully pushing them out of their towns and villages. The precurssor usedto justify those atrocities in 1948 was the Jewish suffering in theHolocaust. When Europe de jure accepted Israel, it was not because theallied government believe in Israel's right to exist but for, what I believeis, the massive guilt of allowing the devestation of the Holocaust to runfor so long combined with the underlying anti-semitism that still remains.So basically, Europeans did not want the Jews in their midst but at the sametime felt that sending them off to their "ancestrial" land is much moreideal, humanely speaking, than sending them off to the gas chambers. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
I threw in the bible quotes, though I don't call myself a Christian. I think the bible is a fascinating historical and literary artifact, but not the literal word of God. There are some interesting thoughts contained within, tho' The quotes I mentioned were basically judge not, lest ye be judged - I do try to remember this, though not becaue I fear Hell. Also, Let he who is free from sin cast the first stone and why are you concerned with that mote in your neighbor's eye when you have such a beam in your own? From the Qu'ran: Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers. Final Sermon of Muhammad Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should not harm his neighbour. Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously. And anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should say what is good or keep quiet. Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 47. Happy is the man who avoids dissension, but how fine is the man who is afflicted and shows endurance. Sunah of Abu Dawood, Hadith 1996. It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing. Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1011 Hard to keep the current situation going and be a Christian or a Muslim. I didn't go through the Old Testament, though I might have, as all three regard it as relevant. -Weaver Bob Molloy wrote: Hi Fritz, Thanks for your two posts. I don't think I have anything further to add to the debate other than to say I feel for your Palestinian friend. My approach was too academic and certainly not acceptable in terms of the very real human crisis which has developed. The current situation is indefensible and - as indicated by the sources supplied by Keith - even the status quo ante appears more and more a legal fiction. Keith is also on the button when he points out that unless until we can add more light to this subject we are only generating heat. One minor point: I offered no quotations from the Bible. If you reread my post you will see I carefully avoided that. In the context it wouldn't have been appropriate. I apologise and withdraw. Best wishes, Bob. - Original Message - *From:* Fritz Friesinger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:14 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs Bob and all, here is an answer of my goog friend Shadi Hadjara,a Christian Palestinenser on your Mail Fritz Actually, the tactic of deploying suicide bombers against Israeli civilians only started in 1994 in retaliation to the Hebron Massacre. In March 1994, at the peak of the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians (where Palestinians were begrudgingly accepting to give away more than 3/4 of their ancestrial land and control over most of their sovreignty over their newly formed bantustans for peace), a Jewish settler in Hebron sneaks into the Hebron mosque during morning prayers. He unloads his automatic rifle on the kneeling crowd killing 4 dozen and injuring another 100. The first suicide bombing took place 3 weeks later. As for rocket attacks, the 1967 six day war resulted in the murder of more than 20,000 civilians by Israeli missiles. The 1982 three month Israeli invasion of Lebanon resulted in the massacre of another 20,000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians by Israel. So please don't squabble over a few missiles in the arsenal of resistence groups that only formed to defend their respective communities against a murderous enraged rogue state. In the context of what took place in the past, Palestinians would not have fiercely opposed Israel if the Zionist pioneers had decided to create a state in Uganda. The fact is that Israel was created over their land by forcefully pushing them out of their towns and villages. The precurssor used to justify those atrocities in 1948 was the Jewish suffering in the Holocaust. When Europe de jure accepted Israel, it was not because the allied government believe in Israel's right to exist but for, what I believe is, the massive guilt of allowing the devestation of the Holocaust to run for so long combined with the underlying anti-semitism that still remains. So basically, Europeans did not want the Jews in their midst but at the same time felt that sending them off to their ancestrial land is much more ideal, humanely speaking, than sending them off to the gas chambers
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
Nice. ... And anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should say what is good or keep quiet. Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 47. (... though there's another side to that...) You might enjoy this, about the Spanish Arabs, by the estimable Dr Wrench, always a good read: http://snipurl.com/tuea and http://snipurl.com/tueb -- Reconstruction by Way of the Soil by G. T. Wrench, Faber and Faber, 1946 Best Keith I threw in the bible quotes, though I don't call myself a Christian. I think the bible is a fascinating historical and literary artifact, but not the literal word of God. There are some interesting thoughts contained within, tho' The quotes I mentioned were basically judge not, lest ye be judged - I do try to remember this, though not becaue I fear Hell. Also, Let he who is free from sin cast the first stone and why are you concerned with that mote in your neighbor's eye when you have such a beam in your own? From the Qu'ran: Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers. Final Sermon of Muhammad Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should not harm his neighbour. Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously. And anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should say what is good or keep quiet. Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 47. Happy is the man who avoids dissension, but how fine is the man who is afflicted and shows endurance. Sunah of Abu Dawood, Hadith 1996. It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing. Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1011 Hard to keep the current situation going and be a Christian or a Muslim. I didn't go through the Old Testament, though I might have, as all three regard it as relevant. -Weaver Bob Molloy wrote: Hi Fritz, Thanks for your two posts. I don't think I have anything further to add to the debate other than to say I feel for your Palestinian friend. My approach was too academic and certainly not acceptable in terms of the very real human crisis which has developed. The current situation is indefensible and - as indicated by the sources supplied by Keith - even the status quo ante appears more and more a legal fiction. Keith is also on the button when he points out that unless until we can add more light to this subject we are only generating heat. One minor point: I offered no quotations from the Bible. If you reread my post you will see I carefully avoided that. In the context it wouldn't have been appropriate. I apologise and withdraw. Best wishes, Bob. - Original Message - *From:* Fritz Friesinger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:14 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs Bob and all, here is an answer of my goog friend Shadi Hadjara,a Christian Palestinenser on your Mail Fritz Actually, the tactic of deploying suicide bombers against Israeli civilians only started in 1994 in retaliation to the Hebron Massacre. In March 1994, at the peak of the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians (where Palestinians were begrudgingly accepting to give away more than 3/4 of their ancestrial land and control over most of their sovreignty over their newly formed bantustans for peace), a Jewish settler in Hebron sneaks into the Hebron mosque during morning prayers. He unloads his automatic rifle on the kneeling crowd killing 4 dozen and injuring another 100. The first suicide bombing took place 3 weeks later. As for rocket attacks, the 1967 six day war resulted in the murder of more than 20,000 civilians by Israeli missiles. The 1982 three month Israeli invasion of Lebanon resulted in the massacre of another 20,000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians by Israel. So please don't squabble over a few missiles in the arsenal of resistence groups that only formed to defend their respective communities against a murderous enraged rogue state. In the context of what took place in the past, Palestinians would not have fiercely opposed Israel if the Zionist pioneers had decided to create a state in Uganda. The fact is that Israel was created over their land by forcefully pushing them out of their towns and villages. The precurssor used to justify those atrocities in 1948 was the Jewish suffering in the Holocaust. When Europe de jure accepted Israel, it was not because the allied government believe in Israel's right to exist but for, what I believe is, the massive guilt
[Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
Hi Bob, Keith was a bit faster (and for shure better )in responding to your mail than me there is only one thing i would like to add: When I notice injustice I speak against it at the least and when I can, DO something about it, without hurting others in the process. Basically, I do what I can to change the injustice to help If you cant live by these basic morals, then why bother quoting the bible . The bible then just becomes a tool to justify more crimes against humanity and oppression. I dont think the bible was meant for that . Thanks Keith for putting things in to perspectiv Greetings to all Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
Bob and all, here is an answer of my goog friend Shadi Hadjara,a Christian Palestinenser on your Mail Fritz Actually, the tactic of deploying suicide bombers against Israeli civiliansonly started in 1994 in retaliation to the Hebron Massacre. In March 1994,at the peak of the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians (wherePalestinians were begrudgingly accepting to give away more than 3/4 of theirancestrial land and control over most of their sovreignty over their newlyformed bantustans for peace), a Jewish settler in Hebron sneaks into theHebron mosque during morning prayers. He unloads his automatic rifle on thekneeling crowd killing 4 dozen and injuring another 100. The first suicidebombing took place 3 weeks later.As for rocket attacks, the 1967 six day war resulted in the murder of morethan 20,000 civilians by Israeli missiles. The 1982 three month Israeliinvasion of Lebanon resulted in the massacre of another 20,000 Palestinianand Lebanese civilians by Israel. So please don't squabble over a fewmissiles in the arsenal of resistence groups that only formed to defendtheir respective communities against a murderous enraged rogue state.In the context of what took place in the past, Palestinians would not havefiercely opposed Israel if the Zionist pioneers had decided to create astate in Uganda. The fact is that Israel was created over their land byforcefully pushing them out of their towns and villages. The precurssor usedto justify those atrocities in 1948 was the Jewish suffering in theHolocaust. When Europe de jure accepted Israel, it was not because theallied government believe in Israel's right to exist but for, what I believeis, the massive guilt of allowing the devestation of the Holocaust to runfor so long combined with the underlying anti-semitism that still remains.So basically, Europeans did not want the Jews in their midst but at the sametime felt that sending them off to their "ancestrial" land is much moreideal, humanely speaking, than sending them off to the gas chambers. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
behind her legitimate borders tomorrow. But the US cannot stop the rocket attacks. Only the Arabs acting as a whole can do that and no Arab leader would agree. The last one to sign a peace treaty with Israel was assassinated. Without secure borders Israel cannot survive and would be forced to react - again. True, the US in concert with the West could stop all arms and other supplies to Israel and slowly starve her into submission. To what? Arab occupation? Sharia law? Eventual total Islamisation? That would be a Final Solution. Where have I heard that phrase before? However, it is the 21st century and final solutions are a luxury we can no longer afford. Why not? Israel's nuclear arsenal says so. If we hate and detest what their reactive violence is doing in Lebanon right now we certainly won't enjoy their fall-back plan. Nor, on reflection, will we particularly relish what Iran has in mind. The nearest German equivalent is Gotterdammerung. (I think there's an umlaut in there somewhere). The Bible has a more apt word for it. In fact it is not only a word it is a prediction. Can't think of it at the moment but I'm sure someone will post it. (I'm not a god-botherer by the way nor even a nominal Christian. It took me half a lifetime to reason my way to out of my childhood conditioning so please don't put me in that slot). In sum, Fritz, I feel your pain. I appreciate your concern. I agree with your sentiments and have no wish to naysay them. I do not condone the violence nor do I excuse it. What I have attempted to do is explain it. My failure is abysmal but then I'm in a long, long queue of previous explainers. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 6:06 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs So Bob, You are rigth on this,its about Land,Power Oil and Money and so on! The fact that the UNO did sanction the implantation of Israel is no consolation for the dispossest Palestinians,who have been driven of theire Land without compensation or all! That the Arabligue did oppose the implantation of Israel is no secret and the price for all this have been payed by the Palestinian Population! The Shabra and Shatilla Massacres and the rest of the atrocyties by the Israel Government on Palestinians can all be excused by your motion of survival of the fittest Well German Nazis had to stand trial for their Warcrimes and so i agree with all Holocaust sufferers (and the rest of the civil world) that there should not be any amnesty for Warcriminals! But explain me why the Shabra and Shatilla Massacres have not been punished despite the perpetrayers have been clearly identified? And explain me why we have a Convention of Geneva and why we have established basic Humanrigths if you can brush them away with survival of the fittest Now,i can not beliefe that all the things you have said are your real beliefes so i think you are sarcastic but you should realice that is exactly the problem in our society at the very most we are sarcastic the suffering of these people does not concern us to much after all its not hurting us directly or is it? Fritz - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Bob Molloy To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Hey guys, It's a war; dirty, messy, cruel, inhuman and unnecessary - unless you happen to be a Palestinian yearning for your land back or an Israeli who's been threatened with annihilation since birth. It's also a war that's been going on since mankind began. It's about land and religion and culture and who dominates who. There are no rights and wrongs there are only who wins and who loses. The winners write history and we move on. Mike Weaver made the point when he wondered if he might be living on land owned by an indigenous people, a point which also applies to you too, Fritz, despite your disingenuous attempt to justify occupation of unwanted land. However, before you think of noble savages, remember that all those nice peace-loving indigenes slaughtered and plundered their way through the millenia since they left Africa (where we all originated) to wherever they finally settled. The 19th century saw the last vestiges of this land grab. If you were a theologian you'd call it original sin. Darwin was earthier, and more enlightening, he called it survival of the fittest. You may take sides, wring your hands, jump up and down, talk about human rights but we are all - even those nice people in the rain forest who we think live in harmony with nature - guilty of genocide and dispossession. In the present case it's called the Arab-Israeli war. We'll know who was right when somebody wins. And if you've forgotten how it all began, here's a brief sketch. I found
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
Once again I'm much in agreement with Bill Blum. He seems to get inundated by a lot of the arguments that happen here too. (Poor guy.) I think we've had all this stuff now that he debunks, and more, not for the first time, and it's tiresome. Please see next. Thankyou. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner http://members.aol.com/bblum6/aer35.htm The Anti-Empire Report Some things you need to know before the world ends July 22, 2006 by William Blum The End Is Near, but first, this commercial. There are times when I think that this tired old world has gone on a few years too long. What's happening in the Middle East is so depressing. Most discussions of the eternal Israel-Palestine conflict are variations on the child's eternal defense for misbehavior -- He started it! Within a few minutes of discussing/arguing the latest manifestation of the conflict the participants are back to 1967, then 1948, then biblical times. I don't wish to get entangled in who started the current mess. I would like instead to first express what I see as two essential underlying facts of life which remain from one conflict to the next: 1) Israel's existence is not at stake and hasn't been so for decades, if it ever was, regardless of the many de rigueur militant statements by Arab leaders over the years. If Israel would learn to deal with its neighbors in a non-expansionist, non-military, humane, and respectful manner, engage in full prisoner exchanges, and sincerely strive for a viable two-state solution, even those who are opposed to the idea of a state based on a particular religion could accept the state of Israel, and the question of its right to exist would scarcely arise in people's minds. But as it is, Israel still uses the issue as a justification for its behavior, as Jews all over the world use the Holocaust and conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. 2) In a conflict between a thousand-pound gorilla and a mouse, it's the gorilla which has to make concessions in order for the two sides to progress to the next level. What can the Palestinians offer in the way of concession? Israel would reply to that question: No violent attacks of any kind. But that would still leave the status quo ante bellum -- a life of unmitigated misery for the Palestinian people forced upon them by Israel. Peace without justice. Israel's declarations about the absolute unacceptability of one of their soldiers being held captive by the Palestinians, or two soldiers being held by Hezbollah in Lebanon, cannot be taken too seriously when Israel is holding literally thousands of captured Palestinians, many for years, typically without any due process, many tortured; as well as holding a number of prominent Hezbollah members. A few years ago, if not still now, Israel wrote numbers on some of the Palestinian prisoners' arms and foreheads, using blue markers, a practice that is of course reminiscent of the Nazis' treatment of Jews in World War II. [1] Israel's real aim, and that of Washington, is the overthrow of the Hamas government in Palestine, the government that came to power in January through a clearly democratic process, the democracy that the Western democracies never tire of celebrating, except when the result doesn't please them. Is there a stronger word than hypocrisy? There is now no Hamas government, declared a senior US official a week ago, eight cabinet ministers or 30 percent of the government is in jail [kidnapped by Israel], another 30 percent is in hiding, and the other 30 percent is doing very little.[2] To make the government-disappearance act even more Orwellian, we have Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, speaking in late June about Iraq: This is the only legitimately elected government in the Middle East with a possible exception of Lebanon.[3] What's next, gathering in front of the Big Telescreen for the Two Minutes Hate? In addition to doing away with the Hamas government, the current military blitzkrieg by Israel, with full US support, may well be designed to create incidents to justify attacks on Iran and Syria, the next steps of Washington's work in process, a controlling stranglehold on the Middle East and its oil. It is a wanton act of collective punishment that is depriving the Palestinians of food, electricity, water, money, access to the outside world ... and sleep. Israel has been sending jets flying over Gaza at night triggering sonic booms, traumatizing children. I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza, declared Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert[4]; words suitable for Israel's tombstone. These crimes against humanity -- and I haven't mentioned the terrible special weapons reportedly used by Israel -- are what the people of Palestine get for voting for the wrong party. It is ironic, given the
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
This seems to match my thoughts as well. I have held back because I feel I cannot take sides in this conflict. I really feel for the Palestinians. I also really feel for the minority of Israelis who would like peace with the Arab states. I hope for all our sakes that a peaceful resolution is found where both sides can save face, otherwise I can see no end to the hate between Western nations the people of the Islamic faith. I really feel sorry for the minority of Moslems in Australia, who are beginning to see the start of anti Islam sentiment in Australia. Most of these people are peace loving as are the majority of Australians. Unfortunately, our government seems to be blindly following the policies of the US, with no thought to the consequences of relations with our crowded Islamic neighbor, Indonesia. regards Doug On Sunday 23 July 2006 5:35, Keith Addison wrote: Once again I'm much in agreement with Bill Blum. He seems to get inundated by a lot of the arguments that happen here too. (Poor guy.) I think we've had all this stuff now that he debunks, and more, not for the first time, and it's tiresome. Please see next. Thankyou. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner http://members.aol.com/bblum6/aer35.htm The Anti-Empire Report Some things you need to know before the world ends July 22, 2006 by William Blum The End Is Near, but first, this commercial. There are times when I think that this tired old world has gone on a few years too long. What's happening in the Middle East is so depressing. Most discussions of the eternal Israel-Palestine conflict are variations on the child's eternal defense for misbehavior -- He started it! Within a few minutes of discussing/arguing the latest manifestation of the conflict the participants are back to 1967, then 1948, then biblical times. I don't wish to get entangled in who started the current mess. I would like instead to first express what I see as two essential underlying facts of life which remain from one conflict to the next: 1) Israel's existence is not at stake and hasn't been so for decades, if it ever was, regardless of the many de rigueur militant statements by Arab leaders over the years. If Israel would learn to deal with its neighbors in a non-expansionist, non-military, humane, and respectful manner, engage in full prisoner exchanges, and sincerely strive for a viable two-state solution, even those who are opposed to the idea of a state based on a particular religion could accept the state of Israel, and the question of its right to exist would scarcely arise in people's minds. But as it is, Israel still uses the issue as a justification for its behavior, as Jews all over the world use the Holocaust and conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. 2) In a conflict between a thousand-pound gorilla and a mouse, it's the gorilla which has to make concessions in order for the two sides to progress to the next level. What can the Palestinians offer in the way of concession? Israel would reply to that question: No violent attacks of any kind. But that would still leave the status quo ante bellum -- a life of unmitigated misery for the Palestinian people forced upon them by Israel. Peace without justice. Israel's declarations about the absolute unacceptability of one of their soldiers being held captive by the Palestinians, or two soldiers being held by Hezbollah in Lebanon, cannot be taken too seriously when Israel is holding literally thousands of captured Palestinians, many for years, typically without any due process, many tortured; as well as holding a number of prominent Hezbollah members. A few years ago, if not still now, Israel wrote numbers on some of the Palestinian prisoners' arms and foreheads, using blue markers, a practice that is of course reminiscent of the Nazis' treatment of Jews in World War II. [1] Israel's real aim, and that of Washington, is the overthrow of the Hamas government in Palestine, the government that came to power in January through a clearly democratic process, the democracy that the Western democracies never tire of celebrating, except when the result doesn't please them. Is there a stronger word than hypocrisy? There is now no Hamas government, declared a senior US official a week ago, eight cabinet ministers or 30 percent of the government is in jail [kidnapped by Israel], another 30 percent is in hiding, and the other 30 percent is doing very little.[2] To make the government-disappearance act even more Orwellian, we have Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, speaking in late June about Iraq: This is the only legitimately elected government in the Middle East with a possible exception of Lebanon.[3] What's next, gathering in front of the Big Telescreen for the Two Minutes Hate?
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
Hi Keith...thanks for the references. I'm curious, why do you live in Japan? You've seen a lot of the planet and its' governments up close and personal and there you are in Japan. Thanks. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 2:35 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs Hi Bob You say: ... The reason for starting from the moment when UNO accepted Israel as a member (in other words as a legally constituted legitimate state) was in my view the only possible point of departure. There are many others, but none so clearly legitimised as the moment when the most modern international organisation we had then in existence chose to do so. ... Previous: And if you've forgotten how it all began, here's a brief sketch. I found it on my thumbnail... It all began in 1948? That's like saying a person's life only begins when they turn 21 and anything before that is irrelevant (or didn't even happen maybe). Prior to 1948 you don't have to go all the way back to Moses to find another important event, there's this one for instance, in 1917: http://ajedrez_democratico.tripod.com/balfour_declaration.htm The Balfour Declaration A history of perfidy and betrayal in the Mideast gives insight into the motivations behind the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. By Dr. Robert John That's in the archives, along with much else that takes all the wind out of your arguments (along with Bill Blum's latest piece, just posted separately). Why not explain how it is that the US has vetoed just about every UN resolution on Israel since then? (Lists in the archives.) Or how it is that Ariel Sharon could announce in Israel that the US would do exactly what he told it to, and then went to the White House and proved it? Eg: I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.-- Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2004/0406sharon.html Foreign Policy In Focus | Global Affairs Commentary | Congress Overwhelmingly Endorses Ariel Sharon's Annexation Plans By Stephen Zunes | June 25, 2004 The vote, therefore, constitutes nothing less than an overwhelming bipartisan renunciation of the post-World War II international system, effectively recognizing the right of conquest. Or why US academics Mearsheimer and Walt recently had to publish a foreign policy article on Israel in the London Review of Books because it could not be published in the Land of the Free? http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html LRB | John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt : The Israel Lobby 23 March 2006 Now why would that be? We've been through all this here, most definitively in the Oil and Israel thread I referred you to. This is the original Oil and Israel post: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35017.html [biofuel] Oil and Israel 27 May 2004 One hundred and twenty posts in that thread, through fire and brimstone to get it all sorted out and in its proper perspective, despite the vast amount of deliberate and very high-powered confusion concerning Jews and Israel and Judaism and anti-Semitism when actually what we're discussing is colonial Zionism and its unconditional backing by the US. Kind of sad to see it all being ignored in so many posts right now, as if the list was born yesterday and we've never discussed this before nor established some foundation for further discussion, and that for just the reasons Bill Blum states. These are some of the things that thread and others covered: Tanya Reinhart is a much-published Israeli professor (Tel Aviv University and the University of Utrecht) who wrote a book called Israel/Palestine: How To End The War Of 1948. There's an interview with her here: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=50ItemID=2595 Interview With Tanya Reinhart ... the Gaza strip, where 6000 Israeli settlers occupy one third of the land, and a million Palestinians are crowded in the rest. As years went by since Oslo, Israel extended the Arab-free areas in the occupied Palestinian territories to about 50% of the land. Labor circles began to talk about the Alon Plus plan, namely - more lands to Israel. However, it appeared that they would still allow some Palestinian self-rule in the other 50%, under conditions similar to the Bantustans in South Africa. That's all changed since 1999. Reinhart makes it clear that what has been happening is opposed by the majority of Israelis. Three chapters of her book are online: http://www.tau.ac.il/~reinhart/books_ME/index.html She wrote this too: http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22ItemID=1805 Jenin- The Propaganda War And this: http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/treinhart5.htm Sharon's Gaza
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
. Does that make your head spin? It does mine. The point I'm making is that if you are looking for legitimacy in terms of land occupation you have to start somewhere. However, it is an academic approach. What matters in the heat of the moment is blood and fire and our separate reactions to them. Inevitably there will always be people on opposing sides of the issue. I finished my post with the view that the Arab-Israeli war will never end until Israel is destroyed or the Arabs accept her existence. Neither is likely. Sanctioning Israel is simply taking sides; admonishing the Palestinians ditto. Jumping up and down and handwringing avails us naught. You can if you wish build your analysis on the basis of active violence /vis a vis/ reactive violence i.e who threw the first punch. That would make an interesting debate but still at the sterile academic level. The reality is that people are dying right now, children are being maimed and traumatised for life, blood and treasure is being poured out and nations are impoverishing themselves in a fruitless war. The US could send Israel back behind her legitimate borders tomorrow. But the US cannot stop the rocket attacks. Only the Arabs acting as a whole can do that and no Arab leader would agree. The last one to sign a peace treaty with Israel was assassinated. Without secure borders Israel cannot survive and would be forced to react - again. True, the US in concert with the West could stop all arms and other supplies to Israel and slowly starve her into submission. To what? Arab occupation? Sharia law? Eventual total Islamisation? That would be a Final Solution. Where have I heard that phrase before? However, it is the 21st century and final solutions are a luxury we can no longer afford. Why not? Israel's nuclear arsenal says so. If we hate and detest what their reactive violence is doing in Lebanon right now we certainly won't enjoy their fall-back plan. Nor, on reflection, will we particularly relish what Iran has in mind. The nearest German equivalent is Gotterdammerung. (I think there's an umlaut in there somewhere). The Bible has a more apt word for it. In fact it is not only a word it is a prediction. Can't think of it at the moment but I'm sure someone will post it. (I'm not a god-botherer by the way nor even a nominal Christian. It took me half a lifetime to reason my way to out of my childhood conditioning so please don't put me in that slot). In sum, Fritz, I feel your pain. I appreciate your concern. I agree with your sentiments and have no wish to naysay them. I do not condone the violence nor do I excuse it. What I have attempted to do is explain it. My failure is abysmal but then I'm in a long, long queue of previous explainers. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - *From:* Fritz Friesinger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 22, 2006 6:06 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs So Bob, You are rigth on this,its about Land,Power Oil and Money and so on! The fact that the UNO did sanction the implantation of Israel is no consolation for the dispossest Palestinians,who have been driven of theire Land without compensation or all! That the Arabligue did oppose the implantation of Israel is no secret and the price for all this have been payed by the Palestinian Population! The Shabra and Shatilla Massacres and the rest of the atrocyties by the Israel Government on Palestinians can all be excused by your motion of survival of the fittest Well German Nazis had to stand trial for their Warcrimes and so i agree with all Holocaust sufferers (and the rest of the civil world) that there should not be any amnesty for Warcriminals! But explain me why the Shabra and Shatilla Massacres have not been punished despite the perpetrayers have been clearly identified? And explain me why we have a Convention of Geneva and why we have established basic Humanrigths if you can brush them away with survival of the fittest Now,i can not beliefe that all the things you have said are your real beliefes so i think you are sarcastic but you should realice that is exactly the problem in our society at the very most we are sarcastic the suffering of these people does not concern us to much after all its not hurting us directly or is it? Fritz - Original Message - *From:* Bob Molloy mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:11 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Hey guys, It's a war; dirty, messy, cruel, inhuman
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Good on ya Bobit seems that the human race is most comfortable at attempting to wipe itself out!!Mother Nature RulesLeoBob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys, It's a war; dirty, messy, cruel, inhuman andunnecessary - unless you happen to be a Palestinian yearning for your landback or an Israeli who's been threatened with annihilation since birth. It'salso a war that's been going on since mankind began. It's about land andreligion and culture and who dominates who. There are no rights and wrongsthere are only who wins and who loses. The winners write history and we moveon.Mike Weaver made the point when he wondered if he might be living on landowned by an indigenous people, a point which also applies to you too, Fritz,despite your disingenuous attempt to justify occupation of "unwanted" land.However, before you think of noble savages, remember that all those nicepeace-loving indigenes slaughtered and plundered their way through themillenia since they left Africa (where we all originated) to wherever theyfinally settled. The 19th century saw the last vestiges of this land grab.If you were a theologian you'd call it original sin. Darwin was earthier,and more enlightening, he called it survival of the fittest. You may takesides, wring your hands, jump up and down, talk about human rights but weare all - even those nice people in the rain forest who we think live inharmony with nature - guilty of genocide and dispossession. In the presentcase it's called the Arab-Israeli war. We'll know who was right whensomebody wins.And if you've forgotten how it all began, here's a brief sketch. I found iton my thumbnail.The UNO blessing on the establishment of Israel in 1948 was merely therecognition of a de facto situation. From that moment on Israel was de jure,i.e. a legal entity in international law. The Arabs disagreed. Five Arabarmies (Egypt, Syria, Trans-Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - including theBritish-trained and armed Arab Legion) immediately invaded the fledglingstate. The world responded by clapping a total arms embargo on Israel.Against that the Israelis had nine obsolete aircraft, a few tanks, fewerthan 20,000 armed civilians -and balls. They won, and pushed out theirfrontiers to safeguard their collective backsides from future attacks.The attacks never stopped (rockets, mines, cross-border shelling andguerilla incursions) but the next big one came in 1967 - the so-called SixDay War. This time the Arabs meant business. Egypt closed the Straits ofTiran to all Israeli shipping, cutting off Israel's only supply route withAsia and stopping the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran.President Nasser of Egypt challenged Israel to fight. "Our basic objectivewill be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." Heordered all UN peace-keeping forces stationed on Israeli borders to leave.The UN complied without even calling a meeting. The Voice of the Arabs radiostation proclaimed: "As of today, there no longer exists an internationalemergency force to protect Israel. The sole method we shall apply againstIsrael is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionistexistence". Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad was more blunt: "The Syrianarmy, with its finger on the trigger, is unitedI, as a military man,believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.Nasser topped that: "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered insand; we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood." He meant Israeliblood.The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon massed on the borders ofIsrael. Backing them with men and munitions were Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait,Sudan and the whole Arab world. The actual count was 465,000 troops, morethan 2,800 tanks, and 800 aircraft. President Johnson warned the Israelisnot to fight. The Red Cross stocked up on blankets, the rest of the worldstood by and watched. Israel couldn't get a hearing in the UN. The SecurityCouncil, it seemed, was difficult to contact.We all know what happened. The Israelis didn't wait for the war. Theypre-empted it. In six days (about the same time God needed to create heavenand earth) the Israelis - using an army 80% of which were weekend soldiersi.e. civilians taking time off from work -and an airforce a fraction thesize of that possessed by the Arabs defeated the lot and pushed out theborders to a more comfortable fit. Figuring that sauce for the goose wassauce for the gander they also closed the Suez Canal to all nations. On thesixth day just as the Israelis were heading for Damascus the SecurityCouncil suddenly found time to convene and ordered a cease fire on allsides. Nasser promptly died and left the mess to his successor, Anwar Sadat.Sadat waited six years and then famously announced he was willing to"sacrifice one million soldiers" (nice man) in a showdown with Israel. Hejoined Syria in assembling a vast army - the equivalent of the total forcesof NATO in Europe. On the Golan Heights
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
king sides; admonishing the Palestinians ditto. Jumping up and down and handwringing avails us naught. You can if you wish build youranalysis on the basis of active violence vis a vis reactive violence i.e who threw the first punch.That would make an interesting debate but still at the sterile academic level. The reality is that people are dying right now, children are being maimed and traumatised for life, blood and treasure is being poured out and nations are impoverishing themselves in a fruitless war. The US could send Israel back behind her legitimate borders tomorrow. But the US cannot stop the rocket attacks. Only the Arabs acting as a wholecando that and no Arab leaderwouldagree.The last one to sign a peace treaty with Israel was assassinated.Without secure bordersIsrael cannotsurvive and would be forced to react - again. True, the US in concert with the West could stop all arms and other supplies to Israel and slowly starve her into submission. To what? Arab occupation? Sharia law? Eventual total Islamisation? That would be a Final Solution. Where have I heard that phrase before? However, it is the 21st century and final solutions are a luxury we can no longerafford. Why not? Israel's nuclear arsenal says so.If we hate and detest what their reactive violenceis doing in Lebanon right now we certainly won'tenjoy their fall-back plan. Nor, on reflection, will we particularly relish what Iran has in mind. The nearest German equivalent is Gotterdammerung. (I think there's an umlaut in there somewhere). The Bible has a more apt word for it. In fact it is not onlya word it is aprediction. Can't think of it at the moment but I'm sure someone will post it. (I'm not a god-botherer by the way nor even a nominal Christian. It took me half a lifetime to reason my way to out of my childhood conditioning so please don't put me in that slot). In sum, Fritz, I feel your pain. I appreciate your concern. I agree with your sentiments and have no wish to naysay them. I do not condonethe violencenor do I excuse it. What I have attempted to do is explain it. My failure is abysmal but then I'm in a long, longqueue of previous explainers. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 6:06 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs So Bob, You are rigth on this,its about Land,Power Oil and Money and so on! The fact that the UNO did sanction the implantation of Israel is no consolation for the dispossest Palestinians,who have been driven of theire Land without compensation or all! That the Arabligue did oppose the implantation of Israel is no secret and the price for all this have been payed by the Palestinian Population! The Shabra and Shatilla Massacres and the rest of the atrocyties by the Israel Government on Palestinians can all be excused by your motion of "survival of the fittest" Well German Nazis had to stand trial for their Warcrimes and so i agree with all Holocaust sufferers (and the rest of the civil world) that there should not be any amnesty for Warcriminals! But explain me why the Shabra and Shatilla Massacres have not been punished despite the perpetrayers have been clearly identified? And explain me why we have a "Convention of Geneva" and why we have established basic Humanrigths if you can brush them away with "survival of the fittest" Now,i can not beliefe that all the things you have said are your real beliefes so i think you are sarcastic but you should realice that is exactly the problem in our society at the very most we are "sarcastic" the suffering of these people does not concern us to much after all its not hurting us directly or is it? Fritz - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Hey guys, It's a war; dirty, messy, cruel, inhuman andunnecessary - unless you happen to be a Palestinian yearning for your landback or an Israeli who's been threatened with annihilation since birth. It'salso a war that's been going on since mankind began. It's about land andreligion and culture and who dominates who. There are no rights and wrongsthere are only who wins and who loses. The winners write history and we moveon.Mike Weaver made the point when he wondered if he might be living on landowned by an indigenous people, a point which also applies to you too, Fritz,despite your disingenuous attempt to justify occupation of "unwanted" land.However, before you think of noble savages, remember that all those nicepeace-loving indigenes slaughtered and plundered their way through themillenia since they left Africa (where we all originated) to wherever theyfinally settled. Th
Re: [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
analysis from that point then the Palestinians are in the right. Does that make your head spin? It does mine. The point I'm making is that if you are looking for legitimacy in terms of land occupation you have to start somewhere. However, it is an academic approach. What matters in the heat of the moment is blood and fire and our separate reactions to them. Inevitably there will always be people on opposing sides of the issue. I finished my post with the view that the Arab-Israeli war will never end until Israel is destroyed or the Arabs accept her existence. Neither is likely. Sanctioning Israel is simply taking sides; admonishing the Palestinians ditto. Jumping up and down and handwringing avails us naught. You can if you wish build your analysis on the basis of active violence /vis a vis/ reactive violence i.e who threw the first punch. That would make an interesting debate but still at the sterile academic level. The reality is that people are dying right now, children are being maimed and traumatised for life, blood and treasure is being poured out and nations are impoverishing themselves in a fruitless war. The US could send Israel back behind her legitimate borders tomorrow. But the US cannot stop the rocket attacks. Only the Arabs acting as a whole can do that and no Arab leader would agree. The last one to sign a peace treaty with Israel was assassinated. Without secure borders Israel cannot survive and would be forced to react - again. True, the US in concert with the West could stop all arms and other supplies to Israel and slowly starve her into submission. To what? Arab occupation? Sharia law? Eventual total Islamisation? That would be a Final Solution. Where have I heard that phrase before? However, it is the 21st century and final solutions are a luxury we can no longer afford. Why not? Israel's nuclear arsenal says so. If we hate and detest what their reactive violence is doing in Lebanon right now we certainly won't enjoy their fall-back plan. Nor, on reflection, will we particularly relish what Iran has in mind. The nearest German equivalent is Gotterdammerung. (I think there's an umlaut in there somewhere). The Bible has a more apt word for it. In fact it is not only a word it is a prediction. Can't think of it at the moment but I'm sure someone will post it. (I'm not a god-botherer by the way nor even a nominal Christian. It took me half a lifetime to reason my way to out of my childhood conditioning so please don't put me in that slot). In sum, Fritz, I feel your pain. I appreciate your concern. I agree with your sentiments and have no wish to naysay them. I do not condone the violence nor do I excuse it. What I have attempted to do is explain it. My failure is abysmal but then I'm in a long, long queue of previous explainers. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - *From:* Fritz Friesinger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 22, 2006 6:06 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Check your Beliefs So Bob, You are rigth on this,its about Land,Power Oil and Money and so on! The fact that the UNO did sanction the implantation of Israel is no consolation for the dispossest Palestinians,who have been driven of theire Land without compensation or all! That the Arabligue did oppose the implantation of Israel is no secret and the price for all this have been payed by the Palestinian Population! The Shabra and Shatilla Massacres and the rest of the atrocyties by the Israel Government on Palestinians can all be excused by your motion of survival of the fittest Well German Nazis had to stand trial for their Warcrimes and so i agree with all Holocaust sufferers (and the rest of the civil world) that there should not be any amnesty for Warcriminals! But explain me why the Shabra and Shatilla Massacres have not been punished despite the perpetrayers have been clearly identified? And explain me why we have a Convention of Geneva and why we have established basic Humanrigths if you can brush them away with survival of the fittest Now,i can not beliefe that all the things you have said are your real beliefes so i think you are sarcastic but you should realice that is exactly the problem in our society at the very most we are sarcastic the suffering of these people does not concern us to much after all its not hurting us directly or is it? Fritz - Original Message - *From:* Bob Molloy mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:11 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Hey guys
[Biofuel] Check your Beliefs
So Bob, You are rigth on this,its about Land,Power Oil and Money and so on! The fact that the UNO did sanction the implantation of Israel is no consolation for the dispossest Palestinians,who have been driven of theire Land without compensation or all! That the Arabligue did oppose the implantation of Israel is no secret and the price for all this have been payed by the Palestinian Population! The Shabra and Shatilla Massacres and the rest of the atrocyties by the Israel Government on Palestinians can all be excused by your motion of "survival of the fittest" Well German Nazis had to stand trial for their Warcrimes and so i agree with all Holocaust sufferers (and the rest of the civil world) that there should not be any amnesty for Warcriminals! But explain me why the Shabra and Shatilla Massacres have not been punished despite the perpetrayers have been clearly identified? And explain me why we have a "Convention of Geneva" and why we have established basic Humanrigths if you can brush them away with "survival of the fittest" Now,i can not beliefe that all the things you have said are your real beliefes so i think you are sarcastic but you should realice that is exactly the problem in our society at the very most we are "sarcastic" the suffering of these people does not concern us to much after all its not hurting us directly or is it? Fritz - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Hey guys, It's a war; dirty, messy, cruel, inhuman andunnecessary - unless you happen to be a Palestinian yearning for your landback or an Israeli who's been threatened with annihilation since birth. It'salso a war that's been going on since mankind began. It's about land andreligion and culture and who dominates who. There are no rights and wrongsthere are only who wins and who loses. The winners write history and we moveon.Mike Weaver made the point when he wondered if he might be living on landowned by an indigenous people, a point which also applies to you too, Fritz,despite your disingenuous attempt to justify occupation of "unwanted" land.However, before you think of noble savages, remember that all those nicepeace-loving indigenes slaughtered and plundered their way through themillenia since they left Africa (where we all originated) to wherever theyfinally settled. The 19th century saw the last vestiges of this land grab.If you were a theologian you'd call it original sin. Darwin was earthier,and more enlightening, he called it survival of the fittest. You may takesides, wring your hands, jump up and down, talk about human rights but weare all - even those nice people in the rain forest who we think live inharmony with nature - guilty of genocide and dispossession. In the presentcase it's called the Arab-Israeli war. We'll know who was right whensomebody wins.And if you've forgotten how it all began, here's a brief sketch. I found iton my thumbnail.The UNO blessing on the establishment of Israel in 1948 was merely therecognition of a de facto situation. From that moment on Israel was de jure,i.e. a legal entity in international law. The Arabs disagreed. Five Arabarmies (Egypt, Syria, Trans-Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - including theBritish-trained and armed Arab Legion) immediately invaded the fledglingstate. The world responded by clapping a total arms embargo on Israel.Against that the Israelis had nine obsolete aircraft, a few tanks, fewerthan 20,000 armed civilians -and balls. They won, and pushed out theirfrontiers to safeguard their collective backsides from future attacks.The attacks never stopped (rockets, mines, cross-border shelling andguerilla incursions) but the next big one came in 1967 - the so-called SixDay War. This time the Arabs meant business. Egypt closed the Straits ofTiran to all Israeli shipping, cutting off Israel's only supply route withAsia and stopping the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran.President Nasser of Egypt challenged Israel to fight. "Our basic objectivewill be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." Heordered all UN peace-keeping forces stationed on Israeli borders to leave.The UN complied without even calling a meeting. The Voice of the Arabs radiostation proclaimed: "As of today, there no longer exists an internationalemergency force to protect Israel. The sole method we shall apply againstIsrael is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionistexistence". Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad was more blunt: "The Syrianarmy, with its finger on the trigger, is unitedI, as a military man,believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.Nasser topped that: "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered insand; we shall enter it with its soil saturated
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Up until the 2nd WW there were as many if not more anti-semitic acts in the US than Europe. Zeke Yewdall wrote: Actually, it seems to me that the US and Europe created Israel because we felt bad about the holocaust, but not enough to actually want to stop their anti-semitism so they found a place where the Jew's could have a homeland, without inconveniencing any Europeans. It makes us feel better about the holocaust to say that we support Israel, but I think it's rather condemning of us westerners that we still fight antisemitism at home, rather unsucessfully at times, and only support Jews when there are no westerners to be inconvenienced by them, in Israel. If we really wanted to atone for the holocaust, is shipping the Jews off to a far off land where we don't have to deal with them the best way to show this? It seems to me that this is almost as insulting to the Jews as it is to the Palistinians, though obviously billions of dollars of military support goes some way towards placating the insult. On 7/19/06, *Bob Molloy* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - *From:* Fritz Friesinger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at www.btselem.org/English http://www.btselem.org/English. If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Bob; Your comments are surely offensive and ill considered. Move back onto their own territory? Pray tell where is that? Parachuting displaced Jews into the area we call Israel was the first mistake made by the US and Brittain IMHO and we have been living with the fallout ever since. Although all of the one sidedness and unfair support for the Jews is well expressed in the post and rightly so, your comments about garbage collection mark you as an anti-semite and I believe you should appologize for that comment. Don't get me wrong I am no supporter of any particular people or unfair advantage in any regard in fact I hate all that, but you can't come on a public list and make such statements. It is like condemning americans with a broad brush stroke because you hate the actions of their government. Fair? Justified? Right? I think not. Joe Bob Molloy wrote: Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - *From:* Fritz Friesinger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at www.btselem.org/English http://www.btselem.org/English. If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses of Palestinians by the Israeli government, then you are undoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig who believes that Palestinians are some kind of subspecies of the human race. If you do condemn in your heart these terrible abuses, but are afraid to speak out about them
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Joe, I think Bob was being sarcastic - read his post again. Joe Street wrote: Bob; Your comments are surely offensive and ill considered. Move back onto their own territory? Pray tell where is that? Parachuting displaced Jews into the area we call Israel was the first mistake made by the US and Brittain IMHO and we have been living with the fallout ever since. Although all of the one sidedness and unfair support for the Jews is well expressed in the post and rightly so, your comments about garbage collection mark you as an anti-semite and I believe you should appologize for that comment. Don't get me wrong I am no supporter of any particular people or unfair advantage in any regard in fact I hate all that, but you can't come on a public list and make such statements. It is like condemning americans with a broad brush stroke because you hate the actions of their government. Fair? Justified? Right? I think not. Joe Bob Molloy wrote: Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - *From:* Fritz Friesinger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at www.btselem.org/English http://www.btselem.org/English. If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses of Palestinians by the Israeli government, then you are undoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig who believes that Palestinians are some kind of subspecies of the human race. If you do condemn in your heart these terrible abuses, but are afraid to speak out about them
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Not to mention the unecessary use of two atomic bombs on the Japanese. Americans are the only ones ever to massacre human beings with nuclear weapons and yet they deem themselves to be the ones worthy of having them.huh? Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Bob, I forgot about your ethnic forebears massacres of the native American population. In numbers it is also comparable. Bob, I have a lot to do and have been silent for a while, but this I have to comment. It was clearly under the belt and very insensitive and outright dumb, especially form an American. US do have their own racism and the internment of Americans with Japanese decent during WWII is nothing to be proud of, not to talk about the racism and prosecution of black people, this still in more recent times. Your comments says more about you than about Fritz. It was very few Germans who knew about what was going on, most knew about internment, but very few about the final solution and even fewer that was involved in it. In fact it was very few that ever read Mein Kampf and had reasons to suspect anything like the final solution. They knew about the interment as the Americans knew about their own internment of Japanese Americans also. The final solution was set in practise by a few and when the German population were more occupied by the war. You are also talking about taking personal responsibility for forefathers and then you are personal responsible for the Japanese internment and prosecution of black people also. Hakan At 05:09 20/07/2006, you wrote: Hello Bob I think you should check your beliefs. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921 'Because This Is the Middle East' http://snipurl.com/pg9x Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel 3 Jun 2004 Keith Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Uh.oh :$ Maybe you're right. Sorry Bob. I love sarcasm but I guess I missed it. Need a coffeelol Joe Mike Weaver wrote: Joe, I think Bob was being sarcastic - read his post again. Joe Street wrote: Bob; Your comments are surely offensive and ill considered. Move back onto their own territory? Pray tell where is that? Parachuting displaced Jews into the area we call Israel was the first mistake made by the US and Brittain IMHO and we have been living with the fallout ever since. Although all of the one sidedness and unfair support for the Jews is well expressed in the post and rightly so, your comments about garbage collection mark you as an anti-semite and I believe you should appologize for that comment. Don't get me wrong I am no supporter of any particular people or unfair advantage in any regard in fact I hate all that, but you can't come on a public list and make such statements. It is like condemning americans with a broad brush stroke because you hate the actions of their government. Fair? Justified? Right? I think not. Joe Bob Molloy wrote: Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - *From:* Fritz Friesinger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at www.btselem.org/English http://www.btselem.org/English. If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses of Palestinians by the Israeli government, then you are undoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig who believes that Palestinians are some kind of subspecies of the human race. If you do condemn in your
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Greetings Hakan, my friend. Apologies for misleading you. And salams to Keith and co also. I don't hold any of those views on either Jews or Germans, I was merely jerking Fritz's chain. And I'm not American, I'm a dumb Irish Mick whose family land was taken by English settlers back in the 1600s since when we have wandered the earth as dispossessed people. At least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. In fact if the British hadn't existed we Irish would have had to invent them to excuse our own shortcomings. And thanks to Fritz for the btselem url (a Hebrew word meaning in our own image whichs says it all) and to Keith for the superb backgrounder. I went to Israel in a fit of journo curiosity in the '73 war, naively thinking I could write it up in a way that would be acceptable to all sides (I told you I was a dumb Mick). For this debate the best I could manage is the superficial sketch of humanitarian disasters which I posted separately before reading Hakan's post. Will try to avoid irony in future but remember I'm just a landless Gael (well a couple of acres of paradise in New Zealand hardly counts). Bob. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Bob, I have a lot to do and have been silent for a while, but this I have to comment. It was clearly under the belt and very insensitive and outright dumb, especially form an American. US do have their own racism and the internment of Americans with Japanese decent during WWII is nothing to be proud of, not to talk about the racism and prosecution of black people, this still in more recent times. Your comments says more about you than about Fritz. It was very few Germans who knew about what was going on, most knew about internment, but very few about the final solution and even fewer that was involved in it. In fact it was very few that ever read Mein Kampf and had reasons to suspect anything like the final solution. They knew about the interment as the Americans knew about their own internment of Japanese Americans also. The final solution was set in practise by a few and when the German population were more occupied by the war. You are also talking about taking personal responsibility for forefathers and then you are personal responsible for the Japanese internment and prosecution of black people also. Hakan At 05:09 20/07/2006, you wrote: Hello Bob I think you should check your beliefs. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921 'Because This Is the Middle East' http://snipurl.com/pg9x Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel 3 Jun 2004 Keith Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Hey guys, It's a war; dirty, messy, cruel, inhuman and unnecessary - unless you happen to be a Palestinian yearning for your land back or an Israeli who's been threatened with annihilation since birth. It's also a war that's been going on since mankind began. It's about land and religion and culture and who dominates who. There are no rights and wrongs there are only who wins and who loses. The winners write history and we move on. Mike Weaver made the point when he wondered if he might be living on land owned by an indigenous people, a point which also applies to you too, Fritz, despite your disingenuous attempt to justify occupation of unwanted land. However, before you think of noble savages, remember that all those nice peace-loving indigenes slaughtered and plundered their way through the millenia since they left Africa (where we all originated) to wherever they finally settled. The 19th century saw the last vestiges of this land grab. If you were a theologian you'd call it original sin. Darwin was earthier, and more enlightening, he called it survival of the fittest. You may take sides, wring your hands, jump up and down, talk about human rights but we are all - even those nice people in the rain forest who we think live in harmony with nature - guilty of genocide and dispossession. In the present case it's called the Arab-Israeli war. We'll know who was right when somebody wins. And if you've forgotten how it all began, here's a brief sketch. I found it on my thumbnail. The UNO blessing on the establishment of Israel in 1948 was merely the recognition of a de facto situation. From that moment on Israel was de jure, i.e. a legal entity in international law. The Arabs disagreed. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Trans-Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - including the British-trained and armed Arab Legion) immediately invaded the fledgling state. The world responded by clapping a total arms embargo on Israel. Against that the Israelis had nine obsolete aircraft, a few tanks, fewer than 20,000 armed civilians -and balls. They won, and pushed out their frontiers to safeguard their collective backsides from future attacks. The attacks never stopped (rockets, mines, cross-border shelling and guerilla incursions) but the next big one came in 1967 - the so-called Six Day War. This time the Arabs meant business. Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping, cutting off Israel's only supply route with Asia and stopping the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran. President Nasser of Egypt challenged Israel to fight. Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight. He ordered all UN peace-keeping forces stationed on Israeli borders to leave. The UN complied without even calling a meeting. The Voice of the Arabs radio station proclaimed: As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence. Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad was more blunt: The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is unitedI, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation. Nasser topped that: We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand; we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood. He meant Israeli blood. The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon massed on the borders of Israel. Backing them with men and munitions were Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab world. The actual count was 465,000 troops, more than 2,800 tanks, and 800 aircraft. President Johnson warned the Israelis not to fight. The Red Cross stocked up on blankets, the rest of the world stood by and watched. Israel couldn't get a hearing in the UN. The Security Council, it seemed, was difficult to contact. We all know what happened. The Israelis didn't wait for the war. They pre-empted it. In six days (about the same time God needed to create heaven and earth) the Israelis - using an army 80% of which were weekend soldiers i.e. civilians taking time off from work -and an airforce a fraction the size of that possessed by the Arabs defeated the lot and pushed out the borders to a more comfortable fit. Figuring that sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander they also closed the Suez Canal to all nations. On the sixth day just as the Israelis were heading for Damascus the Security Council suddenly found time to convene and ordered a cease fire on all sides. Nasser promptly died and left the mess to his successor, Anwar Sadat. Sadat waited six years and then famously announced he was willing to sacrifice one million soldiers (nice man) in a showdown with Israel. He joined Syria in assembling a vast army - the equivalent of the total forces of NATO in Europe. On the Golan Heights alone 180 Israeli tanks faced up to 1,400 Syrian tanks. Along the Suez Canal 500 Israeli
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Hi Bob...thanks for the history lesson. Now that Warren Buffet has invested in Israel (a tool company?? if so, I'm sure it must be tools for working in the garden...yeah right) and Newt Gingrich (spelling?) has decided to call this WWIII (and others have decided to grow this image), this time around has the feel of something much larger that I don't think any of us wants to imagine. So I'm not. By the way, how much room do you have on those 2 acres in paradise??? Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Hey guys, It's a war; dirty, messy, cruel, inhuman and unnecessary - unless you happen to be a Palestinian yearning for your land back or an Israeli who's been threatened with annihilation since birth. It's also a war that's been going on since mankind began. It's about land and religion and culture and who dominates who. There are no rights and wrongs there are only who wins and who loses. The winners write history and we move on. Mike Weaver made the point when he wondered if he might be living on land owned by an indigenous people, a point which also applies to you too, Fritz, despite your disingenuous attempt to justify occupation of unwanted land. However, before you think of noble savages, remember that all those nice peace-loving indigenes slaughtered and plundered their way through the millenia since they left Africa (where we all originated) to wherever they finally settled. The 19th century saw the last vestiges of this land grab. If you were a theologian you'd call it original sin. Darwin was earthier, and more enlightening, he called it survival of the fittest. You may take sides, wring your hands, jump up and down, talk about human rights but we are all - even those nice people in the rain forest who we think live in harmony with nature - guilty of genocide and dispossession. In the present case it's called the Arab-Israeli war. We'll know who was right when somebody wins. And if you've forgotten how it all began, here's a brief sketch. I found it on my thumbnail. The UNO blessing on the establishment of Israel in 1948 was merely the recognition of a de facto situation. From that moment on Israel was de jure, i.e. a legal entity in international law. The Arabs disagreed. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Trans-Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - including the British-trained and armed Arab Legion) immediately invaded the fledgling state. The world responded by clapping a total arms embargo on Israel. Against that the Israelis had nine obsolete aircraft, a few tanks, fewer than 20,000 armed civilians -and balls. They won, and pushed out their frontiers to safeguard their collective backsides from future attacks. The attacks never stopped (rockets, mines, cross-border shelling and guerilla incursions) but the next big one came in 1967 - the so-called Six Day War. This time the Arabs meant business. Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping, cutting off Israel's only supply route with Asia and stopping the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran. President Nasser of Egypt challenged Israel to fight. Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight. He ordered all UN peace-keeping forces stationed on Israeli borders to leave. The UN complied without even calling a meeting. The Voice of the Arabs radio station proclaimed: As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence. Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad was more blunt: The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is unitedI, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation. Nasser topped that: We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand; we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood. He meant Israeli blood. The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon massed on the borders of Israel. Backing them with men and munitions were Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab world. The actual count was 465,000 troops, more than 2,800 tanks, and 800 aircraft. President Johnson warned the Israelis not to fight. The Red Cross stocked up on blankets, the rest of the world stood by and watched. Israel couldn't get a hearing in the UN. The Security Council, it seemed, was difficult to contact. We all know what happened. The Israelis didn't wait for the war. They pre-empted it. In six days (about the same time God needed to create heaven and earth) the Israelis - using an army 80% of which were weekend soldiers i.e. civilians taking time off from work -and an airforce a fraction the size of that possessed by the Arabs
[Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Forewardet by Fritz --Check Your BeliefsBy Charley Reese03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check onour belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in amythical state, a governor announced a campaign topunish African-Americans for alleged violence.Step one is to confiscate the land owned byAfrican-Americans, evict them from it and use the landto build massive new subdivisions. Only whiteProtestant Christians may live in these subdivisions.Step two is to connect these all-white ProtestantChristian settlements to each other by a highway onwhich African-Americans are forbidden to drive. Tofacilitate control, the automobile tags forAfrican-Americans will be a different color from thetags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would beset up all around the state capitol to search andharass African-Americans trying to enter.Would you support such a plan? Would you hail thatmythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go toyour church congregation and ask the members to sendmoney to the occupants of these white settlements?Would you lobby the federal government to subsidizethis new apartheid state in our midst?I don't think so. I think most Americans wouldconsider such acts an abomination, un-American and amockery of everything both Christianity and the UnitedStates stand for.Well, if you would condemn such acts here directedagainst African-Americans, why won't you condemnidentical acts committed against the Palestinians bythe state of Israel?Those settlements you hear about are built onPalestinian land, and they are for Jews only. Newroads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connectthem. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israelicheckpoints, where innocent Palestinians are dailyhumiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby villagecan mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours.Palestinians have died in these lines.After all of these humiliations, abuses, the housesdestroyed, the children killed, the olive treesuprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel aboutAmericans who support the Israelis no matter what theydo to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about theseabuses. Check out the Israeli human-rightsorganization at www.btselem.org/English.If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses ofPalestinians by the Israeli government, then you areundoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig whobelieves that Palestinians are some kind of subspeciesof the human race. If you do condemn in your heartthese terrible abuses, but are afraid to speak outabout them, then you are a damned coward.I listened in disgust to a congressional committeehearing on the Palestinian elections. It was all aboutwhat the Palestinians have to do. It was as if thecops, interviewing a child who had been raped by anadult, lectured the child on dressing provocativelyand of being in places she should not have been in.The Palestinians are the victims here. It is theirland that is occupied. They have no army. They are atthe mercy of the Israeli government. They don't have asuperpower protecting them from internationalsanctions and supplying them with billions of dollars.The United States should be telling Israel to get outof the West Bank and East Jerusalem, to dismantle itssettlements and checkpoints, and to allow Palestinianrefugees to return to or be compensated for the landthe Israelis stole.You want to know why we have a problem with terrorism?It's not Islamic fundamentalists or hatred of freedom.It's our support of Israel's unspeakable abuse ofPalestinians. Don't blame Osama bin Laden. Blame thepresident, Congress, the American Israel PublicAffairs Committee and all the cowardly Americans whopractice hypocrisy by claiming to be moral whilesupporting gross immorality committed against theirfellow human beings in Palestine.© 2006 by King Features Syndicate, Inc."Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut, that held its ground."- Anonymous ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed offsix million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of usdumbwesterners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz --Check Your BeliefsBy Charley Reese03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check onour belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in amythical state, a governor announced a campaign topunish African-Americans for alleged violence.Step one is to confiscate the land owned byAfrican-Americans, evict them from it and use the landto build massive new subdivisions. Only whiteProtestant Christians may live in these subdivisions.Step two is to connect these all-white ProtestantChristian settlements to each other by a highway onwhich African-Americans are forbidden to drive. Tofacilitate control, the automobile tags forAfrican-Americans will be a different color from thetags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would beset up all around the state capitol to search andharass African-Americans trying to enter.Would you support such a plan? Would you hail thatmythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go toyour church congregation and ask the members to sendmoney to the occupants of these white settlements?Would you lobby the federal government to subsidizethis new apartheid state in our midst?I don't think so. I think most Americans wouldconsider such acts an abomination, un-American and amockery of everything both Christianity and the UnitedStates stand for.Well, if you would condemn such acts here directedagainst African-Americans, why won't you condemnidentical acts committed against the Palestinians bythe state of Israel?Those settlements you hear about are built onPalestinian land, and they are for Jews only. Newroads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connectthem. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israelicheckpoints, where innocent Palestinians are dailyhumiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby villagecan mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours.Palestinians have died in these lines.After all of these humiliations, abuses, the housesdestroyed, the children killed, the olive treesuprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel aboutAmericans who support the Israelis no matter what theydo to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about theseabuses. Check out the Israeli human-rightsorganization at www.btselem.org/English.If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses ofPalestinians by the Israeli government, then you areundoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig whobelieves that Palestinians are some kind of subspeciesof the human race. If you do condemn in your heartthese terrible abuses, but are afraid to speak outabout them, then you are a damned coward.I listened in disgust to a congressional committeehearing on the Palestinian elections. It was all aboutwhat the Palestinians have to do. It was as if thecops, interviewing a child who had been raped by anadult, lectured the child on dressing provocativelyand of being in places she should not have been in.The Palestinians are the victims here. It is theirland that is occupied. They have no army. They are atthe mercy of the Israeli government. They don't have asuperpower protecting them from internationalsanctions and supplying them with billions of dollars.The United States should be telling Israel to get outof the West Bank and East Jerusalem, to dismantle itssettlements and checkpoints, and to allow Palestinianrefugees to return to or be compensated for the landthe Israelis stole.You want to know why we have a problem with terrorism?It's not Islamic fundamentalists or hatred of freedom.It's our support of Israel's unspeakable abuse ofPalestinians. Don't blame Osama bin Laden. Blame thepresident, Congress, the American Israel PublicAffairs Committee and all the cowardly Americans whopractice hypocrisy by claiming to be moral whilesupporting gross
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Actually, it seems to me that the US and Europe created Israel because we felt bad about the holocaust, but not enough to actually want to stop their anti-semitism so they found a place where the Jew's could have a homeland, without inconveniencing any Europeans. It makes us feel better about the holocaust to say that we support Israel, but I think it's rather condemning of us westerners that we still fight antisemitism at home, rather unsucessfully at times, and only support Jews when there are no westerners to be inconvenienced by them, in Israel. If we really wanted to atone for the holocaust, is shipping the Jews off to a far off land where we don't have to deal with them the best way to show this? It seems to me that this is almost as insulting to the Jews as it is to the Palistinians, though obviously billions of dollars of military support goes some way towards placating the insult. On 7/19/06, Bob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed offsix million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of usdumbwesterners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz --Check Your BeliefsBy Charley Reese03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check onour belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in amythical state, a governor announced a campaign topunish African-Americans for alleged violence.Step one is to confiscate the land owned byAfrican-Americans, evict them from it and use the landto build massive new subdivisions. Only whiteProtestant Christians may live in these subdivisions.Step two is to connect these all-white ProtestantChristian settlements to each other by a highway onwhich African-Americans are forbidden to drive. Tofacilitate control, the automobile tags forAfrican-Americans will be a different color from thetags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would beset up all around the state capitol to search andharass African-Americans trying to enter.Would you support such a plan? Would you hail thatmythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go toyour church congregation and ask the members to sendmoney to the occupants of these white settlements?Would you lobby the federal government to subsidizethis new apartheid state in our midst?I don't think so. I think most Americans wouldconsider such acts an abomination, un-American and amockery of everything both Christianity and the UnitedStates stand for.Well, if you would condemn such acts here directedagainst African-Americans, why won't you condemnidentical acts committed against the Palestinians bythe state of Israel?Those settlements you hear about are built onPalestinian land, and they are for Jews only. Newroads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connectthem. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israelicheckpoints, where innocent Palestinians are dailyhumiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby villagecan mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours.Palestinians have died in these lines.After all of these humiliations, abuses, the housesdestroyed, the children killed, the olive treesuprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel aboutAmericans who support the Israelis no matter what theydo to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about theseabuses. Check out the Israeli human-rightsorganization at www.btselem.org/English.If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses ofPalestinians by the Israeli government, then you areundoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig whobelieves that Palestinians are some kind of subspeciesof the human race. If you do condemn in your heartthese terrible abuses, but are afraid to speak outabout them, then you are a damned coward.I listened in disgust to a congressional committeehearing on the Palestinian elections. It was all aboutwhat the Palestinians have to do. It was as if thecops, interviewing a child who had been raped by anadult, lectured the child on dressing
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
On 7/19/06, Bob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed offsix million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of usdumbwesterners stop them just before they'd finished the job. There have been many atrocities committed in the past. I do not think that they are justification for us to allow atrocities to be committed now. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob.Now, maybe I have my facts wrong (I do have an American education after all), but I do not recall the palestinians participating in the holocaust. I seem to recall that it was the germans who perpetrated it. So, why were the palestinians punished for the sins of the germans. I don't know what the answers are to this situation. There are no easy solutions. But you need to consider both sides of the situation. The world, including the US, needs to be supporting a peaceful compromise. We need to stop supporting Israel because we feel guilty about what happened in the past. -Paul - Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz --Check Your BeliefsBy Charley Reese03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check onour belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in amythical state, a governor announced a campaign topunish African-Americans for alleged violence.Step one is to confiscate the land owned byAfrican-Americans, evict them from it and use the landto build massive new subdivisions. Only whiteProtestant Christians may live in these subdivisions.Step two is to connect these all-white ProtestantChristian settlements to each other by a highway onwhich African-Americans are forbidden to drive. Tofacilitate control, the automobile tags forAfrican-Americans will be a different color from thetags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would beset up all around the state capitol to search andharass African-Americans trying to enter.Would you support such a plan? Would you hail thatmythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go toyour church congregation and ask the members to sendmoney to the occupants of these white settlements?Would you lobby the federal government to subsidizethis new apartheid state in our midst?I don't think so. I think most Americans wouldconsider such acts an abomination, un-American and amockery of everything both Christianity and the UnitedStates stand for.Well, if you would condemn such acts here directedagainst African-Americans, why won't you condemnidentical acts committed against the Palestinians bythe state of Israel?Those settlements you hear about are built onPalestinian land, and they are for Jews only. Newroads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connectthem. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israelicheckpoints, where innocent Palestinians are dailyhumiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby villagecan mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours.Palestinians have died in these lines.After all of these humiliations, abuses, the housesdestroyed, the children killed, the olive treesuprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel aboutAmericans who support the Israelis no matter what theydo to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about theseabuses. Check out the Israeli human-rightsorganization at www.btselem.org/English.If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses ofPalestinians by the Israeli government, then you areundoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig whobelieves that Palestinians are some kind of subspeciesof the human race. If you do condemn in your heartthese terrible abuses, but are afraid to speak outabout them, then you are a damned coward.I listened in disgust to a congressional committeehearing on the Palestinian elections. It was all aboutwhat the Palestinians have to do. It was as if thecops, interviewing a child who had been raped by anadult, lectured the child on dressing provocativelyand of being in places she should not have been in.The Palestinians are the victims here. It is theirland that is occupied. They have no army. They are atthe mercy
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Bob, i bett you havent wread the report of www.btselem.org you would not talk such rhubbish! Fritz - Original Message - From: Bob Molloy To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed offsix million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of usdumbwesterners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz --Check Your BeliefsBy Charley Reese03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check onour belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in amythical state, a governor announced a campaign topunish African-Americans for alleged violence.Step one is to confiscate the land owned byAfrican-Americans, evict them from it and use the landto build massive new subdivisions. Only whiteProtestant Christians may live in these subdivisions.Step two is to connect these all-white ProtestantChristian settlements to each other by a highway onwhich African-Americans are forbidden to drive. Tofacilitate control, the automobile tags forAfrican-Americans will be a different color from thetags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would beset up all around the state capitol to search andharass African-Americans trying to enter.Would you support such a plan? Would you hail thatmythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go toyour church congregation and ask the members to sendmoney to the occupants of these white settlements?Would you lobby the federal government to subsidizethis new apartheid state in our midst?I don't think so. I think most Americans wouldconsider such acts an abomination, un-American and amockery of everything both Christianity and the UnitedStates stand for.Well, if you would condemn such acts here directedagainst African-Americans, why won't you condemnidentical acts committed against the Palestinians bythe state of Israel?Those settlements you hear about are built onPalestinian land, and they are for Jews only. Newroads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connectthem. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israelicheckpoints, where innocent Palestinians are dailyhumiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby villagecan mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours.Palestinians have died in these lines.After all of these humiliations, abuses, the housesdestroyed, the children killed, the olive treesuprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel aboutAmericans who support the Israelis no matter what theydo to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about theseabuses. Check out the Israeli human-rightsorganization at www.btselem.org/English.If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses ofPalestinians by the Israeli government, then you areundoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig whobelieves that Palestinians are some kind of subspeciesof the human race. If you do condemn in your heartthese terrible abuses, but are afraid to speak outabout them, then you are a damned coward.I listened in disgust to a congressional committeehearing on the Palestinian elections. It was all aboutwhat the Palestinians have to do. It was as if thecops, interviewing a child who had been raped by anadult, lectured the child on dressing provocativelyand of being in places she should not have been in.The Palestinians are the victims here. It is theirland that is occupied. They have no army. They are atthe mercy of the Israeli government. They don't have asuperpower protecting them from internationalsanctions and supplying them with billions of dollars.The United States should be telling Israel to get outof the West Bank and East Jerusalem, to dismantle itssettlements and checkpoints, and to allow Palestinianrefugees to return
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Hello Bob I think you should check your beliefs. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921 'Because This Is the Middle East' http://snipurl.com/pg9x Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel 3 Jun 2004 Keith Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at http://www.btselem.org/Englishwww.btselem.org/English. If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses of Palestinians by the Israeli government, then you are undoubtedly a bigot, the worst kind of racist pig who believes that Palestinians are some kind of subspecies of the human race. If you do condemn in your heart these terrible abuses, but are afraid to speak out about them, then you are a damned coward. I listened in disgust to a congressional committee hearing on the Palestinian elections. It was all about what the Palestinians have to do. It was as if the cops, interviewing a child who had been raped by an adult, lectured the child on dressing provocatively and of being in places she should not have been in. The Palestinians are the victims here. It is their land that is occupied. They have no army. They are at the mercy of the Israeli government. They don't have a superpower protecting them from international sanctions and supplying them with billions of dollars. The United States should be telling Israel to get out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, to dismantle its settlements and checkpoints, and to allow Palestinian refugees to return to or be compensated for the land the Israelis stole. You want to know why we have a problem with terrorism? It's not Islamic fundamentalists or hatred of freedom. It's our support of Israel's unspeakable abuse of Palestinians. Don't blame Osama bin
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Bob, I forgot about your ethnic forebears massacres of the native American population. In numbers it is also comparable. Bob, I have a lot to do and have been silent for a while, but this I have to comment. It was clearly under the belt and very insensitive and outright dumb, especially form an American. US do have their own racism and the internment of Americans with Japanese decent during WWII is nothing to be proud of, not to talk about the racism and prosecution of black people, this still in more recent times. Your comments says more about you than about Fritz. It was very few Germans who knew about what was going on, most knew about internment, but very few about the final solution and even fewer that was involved in it. In fact it was very few that ever read Mein Kampf and had reasons to suspect anything like the final solution. They knew about the interment as the Americans knew about their own internment of Japanese Americans also. The final solution was set in practise by a few and when the German population were more occupied by the war. You are also talking about taking personal responsibility for forefathers and then you are personal responsible for the Japanese internment and prosecution of black people also. Hakan At 05:09 20/07/2006, you wrote: Hello Bob I think you should check your beliefs. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921 'Because This Is the Middle East' http://snipurl.com/pg9x Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel 3 Jun 2004 Keith Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at http://www.btselem.org
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Bob, I have a lot to do and have been silent for a while, but this I have to comment. It was clearly under the belt and very insensitive and outright dumb, especially form an American. US do have their own racism and the internment of Americans with Japanese decent during WWII is nothing to be proud of, not to talk about the racism and prosecution of black people, this still in more recent times. Your comments says more about you than about Fritz. It was very few Germans who knew about what was going on, most knew about internment, but very few about the final solution and even fewer that was involved in it. In fact it was very few that ever read Mein Kampf and had reasons to suspect anything like the final solution. They knew about the interment as the Americans knew about their own internment of Japanese Americans also. The final solution was set in practise by a few and when the German population were more occupied by the war. You are also talking about taking personal responsibility for forefathers and then you are personal responsible for the Japanese internment and prosecution of black people also. Hakan At 05:09 20/07/2006, you wrote: Hello Bob I think you should check your beliefs. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921 'Because This Is the Middle East' http://snipurl.com/pg9x Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel 3 Jun 2004 Keith Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at http://www.btselem.org/Englishwww.btselem.org/English. If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses of Palestinians by the Israeli government, then you
