Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Hello Robert, Maybe I missed a post. What kind of EV truck did you find? Tom From: robert rabello [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 00:40:40 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead- Original Message -From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Tuesday, August 8, 2006 7:15 pmSubject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead I have been driving these machines for about 30 years now. If I haven'tdone some research and gained some experience, it's been a poor investment.I wish more people thought like you do. The fact that you're driving an EV through Canadian winters is admirable. It doesn't get very cold where I live (Shh! Don't tell anyone!), but an EV truck conversion I drove a few years ago illustrated the viability of electric vehicles in this region. Now that gasoline is selling for $1.16 per liter in my area, an EV is looking more attractive all the time. There are always going to be circumstances where you have to brake, mechanically or electrically (be it plugging, dynamic or regenerative). From the point of view of getting back some electricity or just makingheat, it is intuitively appealing to think something returned is better than nothing, plus it should reduce brake wear and maintenance. I don'tdispute that. My issue is the automatic assumption by many that it approaches perpetual motion.I agree with you. I really like the regen braking in my Camry, though, as it helps me control downhill speed. In a car that weighs over 1 500 kilos, being able to regen is a safety advantage as far as I'm concerned. Now, I've NEVER done brake pads on my Ranger, which is approaching 200 000 km on the odometer, but that's partially because I rely on engine braking going downhill. (That little 2.3 liter Ford can REALLY wind!) I'm VERY gentle on brakes, in general, so your comments concerning driver training ring true.So with a DC motor in your EV, do you rely exclusively on friction brakes? It's hilly where I live, though not as hilly as Southern California, and I don't think I'd want to drive around in a heavy machine that has to rely exclusively on friction brakes. But not all downgrades provide regenerative braking opportunities. True. This is one advantage of a hybrid, in my view. I've dreamed of employing supplemental hydrogen injection for the ICE and using the "wasted" regen braking opportunities to power an electrolyzer, but this would recover very little energy anyway (as most would be expressed as heat)and likely not worth the expense and mass of the additional equipment. In mountain country, it can be different, as the grades can be longer and steeper. However, when one is starting out with a full charge, regenerative braking doesn't work - there's nowhere for the charging current to go, hence no motor braking. Plugging might work in this circumstance, but it's just another way of making heat.Once my Camry batteries are full, the regen shuts off and it uses compression braking exclusively. Watching the onboard computer manage energy in the battery pack is a little like watching a delicate dance. I think, however, that a human being with the capacity to anticipate grades could do a more effective job than an electronic system in managing energy exclusively in response to changes in vehicle speed. That's why I shut the cruise control off in mountainous country. Still, the real catch is how much energy can we expect to get back fromregen in the average use of a mass-production vehicle. My stance is that if it is less than 8% as a starting point for a vehicle used specificallyfor stop and go driving, then it's going to be less for a vehicle driven with fewer stops and starts. Given the current state of automotive technology, there are many places we should focus our energies before regen. Reduced weight, reduced drag, more efficient drive trains (e.g.,get rid of old-style torque converters). Driver education, including the importance of tire inflation, tune-ups, slowing down, planning trips, trip-chaining and how to drive for fuel economy. Can I hear an "AMEN"? Actually, I remember one of the early production EVs implemented regenerative braking, not for the energy capture, but to mimic the feel of ICE braking, so drivers new to EVs would feel more comfortable with the initial driving experience.That's what my Camry does too. It's very easy to drive that car in a conventional manner, but I think that's what Toyota set out to do when their engineers first put pencil to paper.robert___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@susta
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
It was a Mazda, about two years older than my Ranger. robert Hello Robert, Maybe I missed a post. What kind of EV truck did you find? Tom From: robert rabello [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 00:40:40 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead- Original Message -From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Tuesday, August 8, 2006 7:15 pmSubject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead I have been driving these machines for about 30 years now. If I haven'tdone some research and gained some experience, it's been a poor investment.I wish more people thought like you do. The fact that you're driving an EV through Canadian winters is admirable. It doesn't get very cold where I live (Shh! Don't tell anyone!), but an EV truck conversion I drove a few years ago illustrated the viability of electric vehicles in this region. Now that gasoline is selling for $1.16 per liter in my area, an EV is looking more attractive all the time. There are always going to be circumstances where you have to brake, mechanically or electrically (be it plugging, dynamic or regenerative). From the point of view of getting back some electricity or just makingheat, it is intuitively appealing to think something returned is better than nothing, plus it should reduce brake wear and maintenance. I don'tdispute that. My issue is the automatic assumption by many that it approaches perpetual motion.I agree with you. I really like the regen braking in my Camry, though, as it helps me control downhill speed. In a car that weighs over 1 500 kilos, being able to regen is a safety advantage as far as I'm concerned. Now, I've NEVER done brake pads on my Ranger, which is approaching 200 000 km on the odometer, but that's partially because I rely on engine braking going downhill. (That little 2.3 liter Ford can REALLY wind!) I'm VERY gentle on brakes, in general, so your comments concerning driver training ring true.So with a DC motor in your EV, do you rely exclusively on friction brakes? It's hilly where I live, though not as hilly as Southern California, and I don't think I'd want to drive around in a heavy machine that has to rely exclusively on friction brakes. But not all downgrades provide regenerative braking opportunities. True. This is one advantage of a hybrid, in my view. I've dreamed of employing supplemental hydrogen injection for the ICE and using the "wasted" regen braking opportunities to power an electrolyzer, but this would recover very little energy anyway (as most would be expressed as heat)and likely not worth the expense and mass of the additional equipment. In mountain country, it can be different, as the grades can be longer and steeper. However, when one is starting out with a full charge, regenerative braking doesn't work - there's nowhere for the charging current to go, hence no motor braking. Plugging might work in this circumstance, but it's just another way of making heat.Once my Camry batteries are full, the regen shuts off and it uses compression braking exclusively. Watching the onboard computer manage energy in the battery pack is a little like watching a delicate dance. I think, however, that a human being with the capacity to anticipate grades could do a more effective job than an electronic system in managing energy exclusively in response to changes in vehicle speed. That's why I shut the cruise control off in mountainous country. Still, the real catch is how much energy can we expect to get back fromregen in the average use of a mass-production vehicle. My stance is that if it is less than 8% as a starting point for a vehicle used specificallyfor stop and go driving, then it's going to be less for a vehicle driven with fewer stops and starts. Given the current state of automotive technology, there are many places we should focus our energies before regen. Reduced weight, reduced drag, more efficient drive trains (e.g.,get rid of old-style torque converters). Driver education, including the importance of tire inflation, tune-ups, slowing down, planning trips, trip-chaining and how to drive for fuel economy. Can I hear an "AMEN"? Actually, I remember one of the early production EVs implemented regenerative braking, not for the energy capture, but to mimic the feel of ICE braking, so drivers new to EVs would feel more comfortable with the initial driving experience.That's what my Camry does too. It's very easy to drive that car in a conventional manner, but I think that's what Toyota set out to do when their engineers first put pencil to paper.robert___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Jet electric industries (I think that was their name) made a bunch of factory conversions (bought gliders from mazda) for electric ford courier pickups in the early 80's which were sold to utility companies. You see them for sale on ebay occasionally. specs: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/142.html http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/611 On 8/9/06, robert rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was a Mazda, about two years older than my Ranger.robert Hello Robert, Maybe I missed a post. What kind of EV truck did you find? Tom From: robert rabello [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 00:40:40 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead- Original Message -From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Tuesday, August 8, 2006 7:15 pmSubject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead I have been driving these machines for about 30 years now. If I haven'tdone some research and gained some experience, it's been a poor investment.I wish more people thought like you do. The fact that you're driving an EV through Canadian winters is admirable. It doesn't get very cold where I live (Shh! Don't tell anyone!), but an EV truck conversion I drove a few years ago illustrated the viability of electric vehicles in this region. Now that gasoline is selling for $1.16 per liter in my area, an EV is looking more attractive all the time. There are always going to be circumstances where you have to brake, mechanically or electrically (be it plugging, dynamic or regenerative). From the point of view of getting back some electricity or just makingheat, it is intuitively appealing to think something returned is better than nothing, plus it should reduce brake wear and maintenance. I don'tdispute that. My issue is the automatic assumption by many that it approaches perpetual motion.I agree with you. I really like the regen braking in my Camry, though, as it helps me control downhill speed. In a car that weighs over 1 500 kilos, being able to regen is a safety advantage as far as I'm concerned. Now, I've NEVER done brake pads on my Ranger, which is approaching 200 000 km on the odometer, but that's partially because I rely on engine braking going downhill. (That little 2.3 liter Ford can REALLY wind!) I'm VERY gentle on brakes, in general, so your comments concerning driver training ring true.So with a DC motor in your EV, do you rely exclusively on friction brakes? It's hilly where I live, though not as hilly as Southern California, and I don't think I'd want to drive around in a heavy machine that has to rely exclusively on friction brakes. But not all downgrades provide regenerative braking opportunities. True. This is one advantage of a hybrid, in my view. I've dreamed of employing supplemental hydrogen injection for the ICE and using the wasted regen braking opportunities to power an electrolyzer, but this would recover very little energy anyway (as most would be expressed as heat)and likely not worth the expense and mass of the additional equipment. In mountain country, it can be different, as the grades can be longer and steeper. However, when one is starting out with a full charge, regenerative braking doesn't work - there's nowhere for the charging current to go, hence no motor braking. Plugging might work in this circumstance, but it's just another way of making heat.Once my Camry batteries are full, the regen shuts off and it uses compression braking exclusively. Watching the onboard computer manage energy in the battery pack is a little like watching a delicate dance. I think, however, that a human being with the capacity to anticipate grades could do a more effective job than an electronic system in managing energy exclusively in response to changes in vehicle speed. That's why I shut the cruise control off in mountainous country. Still, the real catch is how much energy can we expect to get back fromregen in the average use of a mass-production vehicle. My stance is that if it is less than 8% as a starting point for a vehicle used specificallyfor stop and go driving, then it's going to be less for a vehicle driven with fewer stops and starts. Given the current state of automotive technology, there are many places we should focus our energies before regen. Reduced weight, reduced drag, more efficient drive trains (e.g.,get rid of old-style torque converters). Driver education, including the importance of tire inflation, tune-ups, slowing down, planning trips, trip-chaining and how to drive for fuel economy. Can I hear an AMEN? Actually, I remember one of the early production EVs implemented regenerative braking, not for the energy capture, but to mimic the feel of ICE braking, so drivers new to EVs would feel more comfortable with the initial driving experience.That's what my Camry does too. It's very easy to drive that car in a conventional manner, but I think that's what Toyota set out to do when their engineers first put pencil to paper
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Nuts, got bounced again. Mike Redler wrote: Darryll, you wrote: ?Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too.? As we discussed earlier, the advantages of replacing an IC motor with an electric motor exist with conditions that require constantly changing demands for power - demands that the IC motor can?t closely match. Those conditions include frequent acceleration and deceleration. The advantages of regenerative braking exist under exactly the same conditions. So, if your statement is true, you can?t suggest that less braking causes regen to have little advantage without also suggesting that electric motors have little advantage under the same conditions. Actually, I can suggest electric motors have significant advantage in this scenario, and I do. It comes from the physics of acceleration vs. deceleration for road vehicles, and driver behaviour. The following assumes level ground as an approximation that on average most vehicles start and end their daily cycle at the same place, a parking spot or driveway. When accelerating from a stop, the vehicle has to overcome inertia, rolling losses and aerodynamic drag. When decelerating, the vehicle only has to overcome a (significant) fraction of inertia, as rolling losses and aerodynamic drag are already braking forces. The secret is coasting, allowing the rolling losses and aero drag to do as much of the braking as possible. Gravity can also provide an effective braking effect under the right circumstances. Accelerating from a stop is essentially the only time the ICE engine is operating outside its design range, because it would stall. Everything other speed should permit the ICE to operate in its efficiency range via changing of gears, the extreme version being the CVT which is slowly gaining in popularity. Accelerating from a stop is where the series-wound DC motor really shines, developing maximum torque at zero RPM. I am only aware of one study that actually determined the benefits of regenerative braking in real-world conditions. That was in the 1970's by the USPS. Using their regular drivers, they put Gould electric Jeep conversions on regular delivery routes. That's a lot of stops and starts, which should be ideal for regen. They enabled regen on some vehicles, and disabled it on others. The difference in range was about 8%. (I only ever saw this report once, and in hardcopy format. It belonged to the Electric Vehicle Association of Canada, and I have no idea how to find it now.) The cost of implementing regen on most EVs is substantial. On some AC drives, it is built-in, but those systems are considerably more expensive than typical DC drives to begin with. For most EVs, adding 10% more battery will provide more range advantage than regen, for a lot less money. Training drivers to drive for fuel economy requires no modifications to the vehicle, and can achieve gains of up to 30%. There are anecdotal reports that batteries last longer, and performance is better throughout the drive with regen. This is mostly attributed to developing a surface charge on the batteries. That may be unique to lead-acid batteries. So, get in your EV, accelerate from stops like a maniac, then coast to the extent possible, and let the environmental braking forces do most of your braking (rolling resistance, aero drag, gravity). If you only use the brakes to hold the vehicle after it coasts to a stop, there is no energy available to be collected via regen. It amazes me how often this technique permits me to avoid stopping at traffic lights. Because I am creeping up on red lights, they have more time to change without forcing me to come to a complete stop. It won't work in every circumstance (notably when stopping at the bottom of a hill), but with practice, it's amazing how often this works. Yes, there is still some potential advantage to regen, but not much. Spend some time in a hybrid like the Prius or Insight. Consider how small the energy storage in their battery packs is. Then look at what a small fraction of that is actually provided in a regenerative braking situation. Anyway, that's my case for how an electric motor can be superior for acceleration performance, without leaving much opportunity for gain from regenerative braking. Speaking of regen and hills, I meant to respond to Zeke, but I appear to have misfiled his message. The catch to your scenario is that most of your regen opportunity will be occurring when your batteries are already full (leaving home), and providing no benefit because no more electricity can be stored. At the end of the day, when you're nearing home, you could use that energy, but none is being generated as you are going uphill. Unless
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Hi Darryl,That was quite a read. You've done more research than I have on the subject. I've been relying more on my own analytical/theoretical skills rather than my own experience or the experience of others.I think we're pretty much on the same page though.Your comments on gravity make sense but, I think we can agree that on some hills, you risk getting a Darwin award if you don't brake.Wind drag is always a lossthat cannot be regained through any means (that I know of).I think we can also agree that regenerative braking is a function of how often one accelerates and decelerates by means other than those provided by ones environment (i.e. gravity). Sure, I can see driver training as a way to increase efficiency but, depending on where you're driving (this is the where it gets sticky), some terrain makes braking a must no matter how much training you have. I can easily imagine an argument betweensomeonein the Southwest and another in the Northeast U.S. disagreeing on the virtues of regenerative braking.- Redler[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nuts, got bounced again.Mike Redler wrote: Darryll, you wrote: ?Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too.? As we discussed earlier, the advantages of replacing an IC motor with an electric motor exist with conditions that require constantly changing demands for power - demands that the IC motor can?t closely match. Those conditions include frequent acceleration and deceleration. The advantages of regenerative braking exist under exactly the same conditions. So, if your statement is true, you can?t suggest that less braking causes regen to have little advantage without also suggesting that electric motors have little advantage under the same conditions.Actually, I can suggest electric motors have significant advantage inthis scenario, and I do. It comes from the physics of acceleration vs.deceleration for road vehicles, and driver behaviour.The following assumes level ground as an approximation that on averagemost vehicles start and end their daily cycle at the same place, aparking spot or driveway.When accelerating from a stop, the vehicle has to overcome inertia,rolling losses and aerodynamic drag. When decelerating, the vehicleonly has to overcome a (significant) fraction of inertia, as rollinglosses and aerodynamic drag are already braking forces. The secret iscoasting, allowing the rolling losses and aero drag to do as much of thebraking as possible. Gravity can also provide an effective brakingeffect under the right circumstances. Accelerating from a stop isessentially the only time the ICE engine is operating outside its designrange, because it would stall. Everything other speed should permit theICE to operate in its efficiency range via changing of gears, theextreme version being the CVT which is slowly gaining in popularity.Accelerating from a stop is where the series-wound DC motor reallyshines, developing maximum torque at zero RPM.I am only aware of one study that actually determined the benefits ofregenerative braking in real-world conditions. That was in the 1970'sby the USPS. Using their regular drivers, they put Gould electric Jeepconversions on regular delivery routes. That's a lot of stops andstarts, which should be ideal for regen. They enabled regen on somevehicles, and disabled it on others. The difference in range was about8%. (I only ever saw this report once, and in hardcopy format. Itbelonged to the Electric Vehicle Association of Canada, and I have noidea how to find it now.) The cost of implementing regen on most EVs issubstantial. On some AC drives, it is "built-in", but those systems areconsiderably more expensive than typical DC drives to begin with. Formost EVs, adding 10% more battery will provide more range advantage thanregen, for a lot less money.Training drivers to drive for fuel economy requires no modifications tothe vehicle, and can achieve gains of up to 30%.There are anecdotal reports that batteries last longer, and performanceis better throughout the drive with regen. This is mostly attributed todeveloping a surface charge on the batteries. That may be unique tolead-acid batteries.So, get in your EV, accelerate from stops like a maniac, then coast tothe extent possible, and let the environmental braking forces do most ofyour braking (rolling resistance, aero drag, gravity). If you only usethe brakes to hold the vehicle after it coasts to a stop, there is noenergy available to be collected via regen. It amazes me how often thistechnique permits me to avoid stopping at traffic lights. Because I amcreeping up on red lights, they have more time to change without forcingme to come to a complete stop. It won't work in every circumstance(notably when
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Michael Redler wrote: Hi Darryl, That was quite a read. You've done more research than I have on the subject. I've been relying more on my own analytical/theoretical skills rather than my own experience or the experience of others. I have been driving these machines for about 30 years now. If I haven't done some research and gained some experience, it's been a poor investment. I think we're pretty much on the same page though. Your comments on gravity make sense but, I think we can agree that on some hills, you risk getting a Darwin award if you don't brake. There are always going to be circumstances where you have to brake, mechanically or electrically (be it plugging, dynamic or regenerative). From the point of view of getting back some electricity or just making heat, it is intuitively appealing to think something returned is better than nothing, plus it should reduce brake wear and maintenance. I don't dispute that. My issue is the automatic assumption by many that it approaches perpetual motion. Wind drag is always a loss that cannot be regained through any means (that I know of). Correct. Rolling losses and aero drag are the costs of moving along the road. None of that energy is recoverable. The only energy that is available for recovery is the equivalent of what was spent on acceleration (on average, upgrades and downgrades come into play in specific scenarios). I think we can also agree that regenerative braking is a function of how often one accelerates and decelerates by means other than those provided by ones environment (i.e. gravity). Sure, I can see driver training as a way to increase efficiency but, depending on where you're driving (this is the where it gets sticky), some terrain makes braking a must no matter how much training you have. I can easily imagine an argument between someone in the Southwest and another in the Northeast U.S. disagreeing on the virtues of regenerative braking. But not all downgrades provide regenerative braking opportunities. In highway driving in hill country, truckers frequently employ the Rolls-Canardly method of running hills. They use gravity for all it's worth to build up speed on the downgrades (Rolls down one hill) and then use the inertia to help maintain speed on the next upgrade (Canardly get up the next). Of course, this doesn't work if you just put on the cruise control and point the car in the general direction you want to go. In mountain country, it can be different, as the grades can be longer and steeper. However, when one is starting out with a full charge, regenerative braking doesn't work - there's nowhere for the charging current to go, hence no motor braking. Plugging might work in this circumstance, but it's just another way of making heat. Still, the real catch is how much energy can we expect to get back from regen in the average use of a mass-production vehicle. My stance is that if it is less than 8% as a starting point for a vehicle used specifically for stop and go driving, then it's going to be less for a vehicle driven with fewer stops and starts. Given the current state of automotive technology, there are many places we should focus our energies before regen. Reduced weight, reduced drag, more efficient drive trains (e.g., get rid of old-style torque converters). Driver education, including the importance of tire inflation, tune-ups, slowing down, planning trips, trip-chaining and how to drive for fuel economy. Actually, I remember one of the early production EVs implemented regenerative braking, not for the energy capture, but to mimic the feel of ICE braking, so drivers new to EVs would feel more comfortable with the initial driving experience. Darryl - Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nuts, got bounced again. Mike Redler wrote: Darryll, you wrote: ?Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too.? As we discussed earlier, the advantages of replacing an IC motor with an electric motor exist with conditions that require constantly changing demands for power - demands that the IC motor can?t closely match. Those conditions include frequent acceleration and deceleration. The advantages of regenerative braking exist under exactly the same conditions. So, if your statement is true, you can?t suggest that less braking causes regen to have little advantage without also suggesting that electric motors have little advantage under the same conditions. Actually, I can suggest electric motors have significant advantage in this scenario, and I do. It comes from the physics of acceleration vs. deceleration for road vehicles, and driver behaviour. The following assumes level ground as an approximation that on
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, August 8, 2006 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead I have been driving these machines for about 30 years now. If I haven'tdone some research and gained some experience, it's been a poor investment. I wish more people thought like you do. The fact that you're driving an EV through Canadian winters is admirable. It doesn't get very cold where I live (Shh! Don't tell anyone!), but an EV truck conversion I drove a few years ago illustrated the viability of electric vehicles in this region. Now that gasoline is selling for $1.16 per liter in my area, an EV is looking more attractive all the time. There are always going to be circumstances where you have to brake, mechanically or electrically (be it plugging, dynamic or regenerative). From the point of view of getting back some electricity or just makingheat, it is intuitively appealing to think something returned is better than nothing, plus it should reduce brake wear and maintenance. I don'tdispute that. My issue is the automatic assumption by many that it approaches perpetual motion. I agree with you. I really like the regen braking in my Camry, though, as it helps me control downhill speed. In a car that weighs over 1 500 kilos, being able to regen is a safety advantage as far as I'm concerned. Now, I've NEVER done brake pads on my Ranger, which is approaching 200 000 km on the odometer, but that's partially because I rely on engine braking going downhill. (That little 2.3 liter Ford can REALLY wind!) I'm VERY gentle on brakes, in general, so your comments concerning driver training ring true. So with a DC motor in your EV, do you rely exclusively on friction brakes? It's hilly where I live, though not as hilly as Southern California, and I don't think I'd want to drive around in a heavy machine that has to rely exclusively on friction brakes. But not all downgrades provide regenerative braking opportunities. True. This is one advantage of a hybrid, in my view. I've dreamed of employing supplemental hydrogen injection for the ICE and using the wasted regen braking opportunities to power an electrolyzer, but this would recover very little energy anyway (as most would be expressed as heat)and likely not worth the expense and mass of the additional equipment. In mountain country, it can be different, as the grades can be longer and steeper. However, when one is starting out with a full charge, regenerative braking doesn't work - there's nowhere for the charging current to go, hence no motor braking. Plugging might work in this circumstance, but it's just another way of making heat. Once my Camry batteries are full, the regen shuts off and it uses compression braking exclusively. Watching the onboard computer manage energy in the battery pack is a little like watching a delicate dance. I think, however, that a human being with the capacity to anticipate grades could do a more effective job than an electronic system in managing energy exclusively in response to changes in vehicle speed. That's why I shut the cruise control off in mountainous country. Still, the real catch is how much energy can we expect to get back fromregen in the average use of a mass-production vehicle. My stance is that if it is less than 8% as a starting point for a vehicle used specificallyfor stop and go driving, then it's going to be less for a vehicle driven with fewer stops and starts. Given the current state of automotive technology, there are many places we should focus our energies before regen. Reduced weight, reduced drag, more efficient drive trains (e.g.,get rid of old-style torque converters). Driver education, including the importance of tire inflation, tune-ups, slowing down, planning trips, trip-chaining and how to drive for fuel economy. Can I hear an AMEN? Actually, I remember one of the early production EVs implemented regenerative braking, not for the energy capture, but to mimic the feel of ICE braking, so drivers new to EVs would feel more comfortable with the initial driving experience. That's what my Camry does too. It's very easy to drive that car in a conventional manner, but I think that's what Toyota set out to do when their engineers first put pencil to paper. robert ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:54:13 -0400 From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too. An Electrek - wow that takes me back. So ugly they were cute. How's the body (plastic I think) holding up after all these years? Darryl Just the point I was trying to make. Regen does give you advantages, but you have to get used to it to use it properly. I drive the same way as you. Just had to change the brake pads on my car at 180 000 km, so I guess I do not use them very much. Simon Fowler MADUR ELECTRONICS Voitgasse 4 A-1220 Vienna Phone: + 43-1-2584502 Fax: + 43-1-2584502-22 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Our homepage: www.madur.com, www.madur.at, www.madurusa.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Darryll, you wrote: “Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too.” As we discussed earlier, the advantages of replacing an IC motor with an electric motor exist with conditions that require constantly changing demands for power - demands that the IC motor can’t closely match. Those conditions include frequent acceleration and deceleration. The advantages of regenerative braking exist under exactly the same conditions. So, if your statement is true, you can’t suggest that less braking causes regen to have little advantage without also suggesting that electric motors have little advantage under the same conditions. -Redler Darryl McMahon wrote: Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too. An Electrek - wow that takes me back. So ugly they were cute. How's the body (plastic I think) holding up after all these years? Darryl [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Zeke wrote: "But both used Advanced DC motors which don't allow regen... But they are only about $1,600 for the motor, and probably under $4k for a complete drive system, compared to $32k for a single purchase of a AC Propulsion complete drive system -- so you can see why everyone uses the series DC motors for conversions." Zeke, I agree that AC is not the best choice for conversions. I just wanted to add that AC motors can have efficiencies comparable to DC but, only when run at higher speeds. If you slow them down and the speeds approach zero, variable frequency drives will still deliver a high inductive load. I think you and some others on this list already know what happens when you deliver AC near zero Hz through an inductive load. -Redler Zeke Yewdall wrote: I've seen one or two civic conversions. One late 80's, and one mid 90's era. Seemed pretty nice, especially the 90's one which used a 9" motor and a 120 volt battery pack, which is generally used in the small pickup conversions -- it could easily turf the tires if you launched to quickly. But both used Advanced DC motors which don't allow regen... But they are only about $1,600 for the motor, and probably under $4k for a complete drive system, compared to $32k for a single purchase of a AC Propulsion complete drive system -- so you can see why everyone uses the series DC motors for conversions. I've also got a line on an old Electrek, which uses a shunt wound GE motor, so it's got regen too. I almost bought it before I moved to the mountains where I have a 4,000 vertical feet commute. It will make it, but only at 10 or 15mph or so, which given the speed limit of 35, and traffic speed of 45, would annoy all the SUV drivers... Putting NiMH batteries in it would probably improve it a bit by dropping the curb weight, but those are pricey too. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Joe, I don't know of any Civic conversions personally - they tend to biodegrade too soon around here to be popular as conversions. Different story in California where they fail smog tests long before the bodies are done. There is a Del Sol somewhere around here that the owner is looking to sell mostly for parts because the body is beginning to give way. That might be a pretty clean swap out to convert your Civic. If you are interested, I'll see if I can track it down. I suspect the price will be significant, but likely a bargain as the owner was not known for cutting corners or using anything but first-rate parts and materials. There's also a first-class EV conversion guy locally who as of last night does not currently have a vehicle project in his shop. He is currently restoring the controller from a 1922 Milburn Light electric - he does museum quality work. Darryl Joe Street wrote: Hey Darryl; I still have my '92 civic hatch sitting in my driveway. Do you know of any instructions or anyone who has converted one to electric? Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tony Marzolino wrote: Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers? Thanks, Tony Marzolino Make your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion. Starting to track some energy consumption stats. Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, or better than 5 km/kWh. Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off. Based on comments and facial expressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over. If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you. Biofuels are one route, human power another. If you want to go electric, consider where your electricity is coming from. You can buy green power from most U.S. utilities now. If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did. Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion. Here are some links to EV 4 sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#Sale If you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100 km/kWh). or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htm or electric scooter: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htm or even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htm Other options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm or electric mowers or electric tractors: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htm The resurgence of interest in production EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices. We've been here before, with more success in the 1970s (ComutaCars) and the 1990s (CARB ZEV mandate). You won't see them in North America until GM and Ford are both gone, and the oil lobby no longer owns the White House. Technology is not, and has not been, the issue for a long time. If you want to support on-road EVs directly, including plug-in hybrid EVs, today, join the Electric Auto Association. http://www.eaaev.org/ Darryl McMahon doug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 doug swanson Joe Street wrote: Yy! http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
I've seen one or two civic conversions. One late 80's, and one mid 90's era. Seemed pretty nice, especially the 90's one which used a 9 motor and a 120 volt battery pack, which is generally used in the small pickup conversions -- it could easily turf the tires if you launched to quickly. But both used Advanced DC motors which don't allow regen... But they are only about $1,600 for the motor, and probably under $4k for a complete drive system, compared to $32k for a single purchase of a AC Propulsion complete drive system -- so you can see why everyone uses the series DC motors for conversions. I've also got a line on an old Electrek, which uses a shunt wound GE motor, so it's got regen too. I almost bought it before I moved to the mountains where I have a 4,000 vertical feet commute. It will make it, but only at 10 or 15mph or so, which given the speed limit of 35, and traffic speed of 45, would annoy all the SUV drivers... Putting NiMH batteries in it would probably improve it a bit by dropping the curb weight, but those are pricey too. On 8/1/06, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe,I don't know of any Civic conversions personally - they tend tobiodegrade too soon around here to be popular as conversions.Different story in California where they fail smog tests long before thebodies are done. There is a Del Sol somewhere around here that the owner is looking tosell mostly for parts because the body is beginning to give way.Thatmight be a pretty clean swap out to convert your Civic.If you are interested, I'll see if I can track it down.I suspect the price willbe significant, but likely a bargain as the owner was not known forcutting corners or using anything but first-rate parts and materials. There's also a first-class EV conversion guy locally who as of lastnight does not currently have a vehicle project in his shop.He iscurrently restoring the controller from a 1922 Milburn Light electric -he does museum quality work. DarrylJoe Street wrote:Hey Darryl;I still have my '92 civic hatch sitting in my driveway.Do you know ofany instructions or anyone who has converted one to electric? Joe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Tony Marzolino wrote:Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for USconsumers?Thanks, Tony MarzolinoMake your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion.Starting to tracksome energy consumption stats.Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, orbetter than 5 km/kWh.Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off.Based on comments and facialexpressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over.If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you.Biofuels are one route, human power another.If you want to go electric, considerwhere your electricity is coming from.You can buy green power from mostU.S. utilities now.If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did.Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion.Here are some links to EV 4sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#SaleIf you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike:http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100km/kWh).or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htmor electric scooter:http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htmor even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htmOther options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htmor electric mowers or electric tractors:http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts:http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htmThe resurgence of interest in production EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices.We've been here before, with moresuccess in the 1970s (ComutaCars) and the 1990s (CARB ZEV mandate).Youwon't see them in North America until GM and Ford are both gone, and the oil lobby no longer owns the White House.Technology is not, and has notbeen, the issue for a long time.If you want to support on-road EVs directly, including plug-in hybrid EVs, today, join the Electric Auto Association.http://www.eaaev.org/Darryl McMahondoug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's TeslaMotors, with a convertible! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1doug swansonJoe Street wrote: Yy!http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too. An Electrek - wow that takes me back. So ugly they were cute. How's the body (plastic I think) holding up after all these years? Darryl Zeke Yewdall wrote: I've seen one or two civic conversions. One late 80's, and one mid 90's era. Seemed pretty nice, especially the 90's one which used a 9 motor and a 120 volt battery pack, which is generally used in the small pickup conversions -- it could easily turf the tires if you launched to quickly. But both used Advanced DC motors which don't allow regen... But they are only about $1,600 for the motor, and probably under $4k for a complete drive system, compared to $32k for a single purchase of a AC Propulsion complete drive system -- so you can see why everyone uses the series DC motors for conversions. I've also got a line on an old Electrek, which uses a shunt wound GE motor, so it's got regen too. I almost bought it before I moved to the mountains where I have a 4,000 vertical feet commute. It will make it, but only at 10 or 15mph or so, which given the speed limit of 35, and traffic speed of 45, would annoy all the SUV drivers... Putting NiMH batteries in it would probably improve it a bit by dropping the curb weight, but those are pricey too. On 8/1/06, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe, I don't know of any Civic conversions personally - they tend to biodegrade too soon around here to be popular as conversions. Different story in California where they fail smog tests long before the bodies are done. There is a Del Sol somewhere around here that the owner is looking to sell mostly for parts because the body is beginning to give way. That might be a pretty clean swap out to convert your Civic. If you are interested, I'll see if I can track it down. I suspect the price will be significant, but likely a bargain as the owner was not known for cutting corners or using anything but first-rate parts and materials. There's also a first-class EV conversion guy locally who as of last night does not currently have a vehicle project in his shop. He is currently restoring the controller from a 1922 Milburn Light electric - he does museum quality work. Darryl Joe Street wrote: Hey Darryl; I still have my '92 civic hatch sitting in my driveway. Do you know of any instructions or anyone who has converted one to electric? Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tony Marzolino wrote: Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers? Thanks, Tony Marzolino Make your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion. Starting to track some energy consumption stats. Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, or better than 5 km/kWh. Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off. Based on comments and facial expressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over. If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you. Biofuels are one route, human power another. If you want to go electric, consider where your electricity is coming from. You can buy green power from most U.S. utilities now. If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did. Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion. Here are some links to EV 4 sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#Sale If you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100 km/kWh). or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htm or electric scooter: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htm or even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htm Other options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm or electric mowers or electric tractors: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htm The resurgence of interest in production EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices. We've been here before, with more success in the 1970s (ComutaCars) and the 1990s (CARB ZEV mandate). You won't see them in North America until GM and Ford are both gone, and the oil lobby no longer owns the White House. Technology is not, and has not been, the issue for a long time. If you want to support on-road EVs directly, including plug-in hybrid EVs, today, join the
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
On 8/1/06, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors.But then I think regen isover-rated.Note my description of my 4,000 vertical feet commute other than that, I agree with you -- don't drive so fast and anticipate traffic and you don't really need the brakes that much. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as littleas possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup.Good strategy for improving fueleconomy in ICE vehicles too.An Electrek - wow that takes me back.So ugly they were cute.How'sthe body (plastic I think) holding up after all these years? Yeah, they had rather unique styling didn't they... I sort of like it. The body is actually in great shape -- it's been covered for the last 8 years or so. A little chipped on the front end from dirt roads, but not alot of damage from UV. Just needs a new battery pack, tires, and motor brushes, to be back on the road. DarrylZeke Yewdall wrote: I've seen one or two civic conversions.One late 80's, and one mid 90's era.Seemed pretty nice, especially the 90's one which used a 9 motor and a 120 volt battery pack, which is generally used in the small pickup conversions -- it could easily turf the tires if you launched to quickly. But both used Advanced DC motors which don't allow regen...But they are only about $1,600 for the motor, and probably under $4k for a complete drive system, compared to $32k for a single purchase of a AC Propulsion complete drive system -- so you can see why everyone uses the series DC motors for conversions.I've also got a line on an old Electrek, which uses a shunt wound GE motor, so it's got regen too.I almost bought it before I moved to the mountains where I have a 4,000 vertical feet commute.It will make it, but only at 10 or 15mph or so, which given the speed limit of 35, and traffic speed of 45, would annoy all the SUV drivers... Putting NiMH batteries in it would probably improve it a bit by dropping the curb weight, but those are pricey too. On 8/1/06, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe, I don't know of any Civic conversions personally - they tend to biodegrade too soon around here to be popular as conversions. Different story in California where they fail smog tests long before the bodies are done. There is a Del Sol somewhere around here that the owner is looking to sell mostly for parts because the body is beginning to give way.That might be a pretty clean swap out to convert your Civic.If you are interested, I'll see if I can track it down.I suspect the price will be significant, but likely a bargain as the owner was not known for cutting corners or using anything but first-rate parts and materials. There's also a first-class EV conversion guy locally who as of last night does not currently have a vehicle project in his shop.He is currently restoring the controller from a 1922 Milburn Light electric - he does museum quality work. Darryl Joe Street wrote: Hey Darryl; I still have my '92 civic hatch sitting in my driveway.Do you know of any instructions or anyone who has converted one to electric? Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tony Marzolino wrote:Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers? Thanks, Tony Marzolino Make your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion.Starting to track some energy consumption stats.Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, or better than 5 km/kWh.Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off.Based on comments and facial expressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over. If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you. Biofuels are one route, human power another.If you want to go electric, consider where your electricity is coming from.You can buy green power from most U.S. utilities now.If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did. Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion.Here are some links to EV 4 sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#Sale If you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100 km/kWh). or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htm or electric scooter: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htm or even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htm Other options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm or electric mowers or electric tractors: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htm The resurgence of interest in production EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices.We've been here
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Hey Darryl; I still have my '92 civic hatch sitting in my driveway. Do you know of any instructions or anyone who has converted one to electric? Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tony Marzolino wrote: Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers? Thanks, Tony Marzolino Make your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion. Starting to track some energy consumption stats. Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, or better than 5 km/kWh. Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off. Based on comments and facial expressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over. If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you. Biofuels are one route, human power another. If you want to go electric, consider where your electricity is coming from. You can buy green power from most U.S. utilities now. If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did. Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion. Here are some links to EV 4 sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#Sale If you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100 km/kWh). or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htm or electric scooter: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htm or even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htm Other options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm or electric mowers or electric tractors: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htm The resurgence of interest in production EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices. We've been here before, with more success in the 1970s (ComutaCars) and the 1990s (CARB ZEV mandate). You won't see them in North America until GM and Ford are both gone, and the oil lobby no longer owns the White House. Technology is not, and has not been, the issue for a long time. If you want to support on-road EVs directly, including plug-in hybrid EVs, today, join the Electric Auto Association. http://www.eaaev.org/ Darryl McMahon doug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 doug swanson Joe Street wrote: Yy! http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Joe, Check out the sites Darryl included at the bottom of his post. There is some very cool stuff including a link to Build an EV. It has instructions, including costs, components, etc. for converting to an EV. Hondas are mentioned as being a popular choice www.evadc.org/build_choosing.html (build_choosing) There are plenty of Honda Civics at the photo album www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/HOND/16 Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead Hey Darryl; I still have my '92 civic hatch sitting in my driveway. Do you know of any instructions or anyone who has converted one to electric? Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tony Marzolino wrote: Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers? Thanks, Tony Marzolino Make your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion. Starting to track some energy consumption stats. Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, or better than 5 km/kWh. Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off. Based on comments and facial expressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over. If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you. Biofuels are one route, human power another. If you want to go electric, consider where your electricity is coming from. You can buy green power from most U.S. utilities now. If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did. Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion. Here are some links to EV 4 sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#Sale If you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100 km/kWh). or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htm or electric scooter: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htm or even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htm Other options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm or electric mowers or electric tractors: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htm The resurgence of interest in production EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices. We've been here before, with more success in the 1970s (ComutaCars) and the 1990s (CARB ZEV mandate). You won't see them in North America until GM and Ford are both gone, and the oil lobby no longer owns the White House. Technology is not, and has not been, the issue for a long time. If you want to support on-road EVs directly, including plug-in hybrid EVs, today, join the Electric Auto Association. http://www.eaaev.org/ Darryl McMahon doug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 doug swanson Joe Street wrote: Yy! http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers?Thanks, Tony Marzolinodoug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible!http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1doug swansonJoe Street wrote:Yy!http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300Joe___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less.* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Tony Marzolino wrote: Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers? Thanks, Tony Marzolino Make your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion. Starting to track some energy consumption stats. Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, or better than 5 km/kWh. Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off. Based on comments and facial expressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over. If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you. Biofuels are one route, human power another. If you want to go electric, consider where your electricity is coming from. You can buy green power from most U.S. utilities now. If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did. Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion. Here are some links to EV 4 sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#Sale If you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100 km/kWh). or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htm or electric scooter: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htm or even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htm Other options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm or electric mowers or electric tractors: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htm The resurgence of interest in production EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices. We've been here before, with more success in the 1970s (ComutaCars) and the 1990s (CARB ZEV mandate). You won't see them in North America until GM and Ford are both gone, and the oil lobby no longer owns the White House. Technology is not, and has not been, the issue for a long time. If you want to support on-road EVs directly, including plug-in hybrid EVs, today, join the Electric Auto Association. http://www.eaaev.org/ Darryl McMahon doug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 doug swanson Joe Street wrote: Yy! http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
i like the electric boat idea. i have been trying to fiddle up enough parts to make one for a while, but can never find a DC motor (or pair) big enough to make any decent headway on the Mississippi river with all the battery weight. most times headed upriver i can paddle faster- or even make it move at all- than the motor. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead Tony Marzolino wrote: Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers? Thanks, Tony Marzolino Make your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion. Starting to track some energy consumption stats. Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, or better than 5 km/kWh. Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off. Based on comments and facial expressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over. If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you. Biofuels are one route, human power another. If you want to go electric, consider where your electricity is coming from. You can buy green power from most U.S. utilities now. If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did. Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion. Here are some links to EV 4 sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#Sale If you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100 km/kWh). or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htm or electric scooter: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htm or even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htm Other options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm or electric mowers or electric tractors: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htm The resurgence of interest in production EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices. We've been here before, with more success in the 1970s (ComutaCars) and the 1990s (CARB ZEV mandate). You won't see them in North America until GM and Ford are both gone, and the oil lobby no longer owns the White House. Technology is not, and has not been, the issue for a long time. If you want to support on-road EVs directly, including plug-in hybrid EVs, today, join the Electric Auto Association. http://www.eaaev.org/ Darryl McMahon doug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 doug swanson Joe Street wrote: Yy! http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Hull design is everything in an electric boat. Loong and skinny.KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i like the electric boat idea. i have been trying to fiddle up enough parts to make one for a while, but can never find a DC motor (or pair) big enough to make any decent headway on the Mississippi river with all the battery weight. most times headed upriver i can paddle faster- or even make it move at all- than the motor.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <BIOFUEL@SUSTAINABLELISTS.ORG>Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 12:20 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead Tony Marzolino wrote: Hey Guys - These are great, but once again..NO prices and NO availability? Are there any REAL options available for US consumers? Thanks, Tony Marzolino Make your own. Just back from a quick jaunt in the e-914 conversion. Starting to track some energy consumption stats. Looks to be less than 0.2 kWh per km, or better than 5 km/kWh. Took my wife out for Dim Sum, first time I have had her out with the targa top off. Based on comments and facial expressions, I think the bug-eyed little electric is winning her over. If you want sustainable transportation, it's still up to you. Biofuels are one route, human power another. If you want to go electric, consider where your electricity is coming from. You can buy green power from most U.S. utilities now. If not, you can buy Green Tags (which is what I do). I believe you can buy a Tango today - George Clooney did. Second hand EVs come up for sale on occasion. Here are some links to EV 4 sale sites: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm#Sale If you want to start with something smaller, consider an electric bike: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm (By way of comparison, my e-bike appears to get about somewhere around 100 km/kWh). or electric moped: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evmopeds.htm or electric scooter: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evscoots.htm or even an electric skateboard: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboards.htm Other options for starting small are boats: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm or electric mowers or electric tractors: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evtools.htm or electric go-karts or yard-karts: http://www.econogics.com/ev/evkarts.htm The resurgence of interest in "production" EVs today is predictable, it rises and falls with gasoline prices. We've been here before, with more success in the 1970s (ComutaCars) and the 1990s (CARB ZEV mandate). You won't see them in North America until GM and Ford are both gone, and the oil lobby no longer owns the White House. Technology is not, and has not been, the issue for a long time. If you want to support on-road EVs directly, including plug-in hybrid EVs, today, join the Electric Auto Association. http://www.eaaev.org/ Darryl McMahon doug swanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 doug swanson Joe Street wrote: Yy! http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Their claims are a bit optimistic I fear. Kirkdoug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible!http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1doug swansonJoe Street wrote:Yy!http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300Joe___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less.* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] EV is not dead
Yy! http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
And then there's Tesla Motors, with a convertible! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 doug swanson Joe Street wrote: Yy! http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300 Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Hello Joe and All, Definitely Yeah! I like the concept but haven't seen the price of the car or battery life info. Is this available somewhere? Tom From: Joe Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:55:21 -0300Subject: [Biofuel] EV is not deadYy!http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=673300Joe___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Despite being a pro-biodiesel man, I cheer quite loudly when I hear about EVs gaining strength or legitimacy. For two reasons: 1) they reduce emissions, noise pollution, get us away from gasoline/diesel/petroleum altogether, and 2) It means more used cooking oil I don't have to worry about having to fight for. ;p Peace, love and electric vehicles! -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
