Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans
hi, hakan. there is absolutely no question that the vikings traded with byzantium.there was one viking groupwhichalso tried to conquer it. having failed at this, theyopted to formally establish friendly trade and diplomaticrelations,arranging dynastic marriages (whichserved as the foundation for the later russian empire's presumption to carrying on the legacy of theceasars).others saw fit to serve the byzantine emperor: the varingian guard to which bob and i have both referred previously. their trading (and conquering) activities were even more far flung than byzantium, though. and it is generally accepted that for several hundred years they were essentially *the* vessel for the transfer of huge amounts of wealth from asia minor; the middle east; and asia to europe. i did some looking and found a single site which links the viking runic alphabet with the turk script. the author's assertion is that the symbols, at least insofar as their phonetic representation, are identical. he went so far as totranscribe viking runic writings to the turk runes,yielding an effective translation. it must be emphasized that this was a strictly phonetic exercise. he did not use the turk language. -Original Message-From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:21:31 +0200Subject: Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans Chris,Look at my mail to Bob.The Vikings had a regular and well established trading relationshipwith Miklagård, which was Constantinople. This is proven in manyways, by written "sagas" and also by history from that part. Whenthey visited Constantinople, it was special rules for them and theywere not allowed to be a larger group or to have arms, which alsois documented.All the links are there, it is possible and Swedish historians havestarted to accept the links and their probability. They do not regardit as speculative. It is not much more that I can say off or on line,but if you have substantial evidence that the theory is wrong, thewe can continue off line.HakanAt 02:16 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote:hakan,i wasn't disputing everything you suggest.what i do have trouble with, and correct me if i'm misinterpreting you, isthe notion that the vikings could somehow be descended both from the romanlegions and the turks. could there have been contact between the romans andscandinavia? possibly a trade relationship? certainly, but i find thisquestionable because the vikings would have had little if anything to offer that theromans weren't already getting from the peoples of britania, and western andcentral europe. it seems more likely that scandinavian goods would have foundtheir way to the romans indirectly, via trade with the germanic peoples of centraleurope.but even if we suppose that there was direct trade contact, i highly doubt itcould have had sufficient regularity or depth to be of significantcultural/technological/political impact, with the possible exception of their longboats. but even this i've never heard suggested, and it seems about as likely thatthis influence could have come from phoenician traders. that is, if theviking longboat wasn't an entirely autoctonous technology.there may be more to the turkish/turkic relationship, because the historygets a little more complex. but it seems highly speculative in the least if notutterly baseless and fanciful, to suggest that the connections are anythingbut extremely remote in some cases, and superficial in others.anyway, except for the fact that (as was pointed out earlier in this thread)everything is connected to everything, we seem to have gone pretty far afield.perhaps you'd like to continue this discussion off-list?-chris b.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans
Chris, You found two sites, that link the Vikings to the Middle East, if you followed my link to the Swedish Old Nordic Research Institution's paper, even if you do not read Swedish. The Viking and Turkish runic writing used the nabateic language from the area of Southern Israel - Jordanien etc. I lost the link to the site you found and it would be nice if you can give it to me. In the Viking tales, Miklagård (Constantinople) is referred to as the the big city and as a sort of home city or origin. The Vikings also had a quite unique way getting there, by the Russian rivers, which is a bit illogical, if their origin was European. The Viking findings and tales, goes back to around 200 AD and their conquering and trading period westwards was between 800 to 1100 AD. The only serious and failed attempt to conquer Constantinople by the Swedes, that I can remember from the Swedish history, was by a Swedish King and around 600 years after the Vikings era ended. Maybe you can refresh my memory on that point. It is interesting and a lot of the Swedish Viking history has been rewritten and reevaluated, since I first learned it in school more than 50 years ago. If I think about what I read and learned then, it corresponds very much with your and Bob's Viking history. It is funny, because we decided to not go to our summer house in Sweden this year, were we normally spending July, from my childhood and onwards. My wife started to rent luxury villas and apartments for friends during the summer and I made a web site for it http://villaslujo.com/ a year ago. This expanded so much and so fast, that we decided to stay at home this year. Otherwise I have a childhood friend at the summer place, who is professor in Nordic History at Stockholm University, but what I can remember I have never really discussed detailed history with him. He could have straighten me out on this matters, if I am too wrong. Hakan At 02:30 AM 6/28/2005, you wrote: hi, hakan. there is absolutely no question that the vikings traded with byzantium. there was one viking group which also tried to conquer it. having failed at this, they opted to formally establish friendly trade and diplomatic relations, arranging dynastic marriages (which served as the foundation for the later russian empire's presumption to carrying on the legacy of the ceasars). others saw fit to serve the byzantine emperor: the varingian guard to which bob and i have both referred previously. their trading (and conquering) activities were even more far flung than byzantium, though. and it is generally accepted that for several hundred years they were essentially *the* vessel for the transfer of huge amounts of wealth from asia minor; the middle east; and asia to europe. i did some looking and found a single site which links the viking runic alphabet with the turk script. the author's assertion is that the symbols, at least insofar as their phonetic representation, are identical. he went so far as to transcribe viking runic writings to the turk runes, yielding an effective translation. it must be emphasized that this was a strictly phonetic exercise. he did not use the turk language. -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:21:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans Chris, Look at my mail to Bob. The Vikings had a regular and well established trading relationship with Miklagård, which was Constantinople. This is proven in many ways, by written sagas and also by history from that part. When they visited Constantinople, it was special rules for them and they were not allowed to be a larger group or to have arms, which also is documented. All the links are there, it is possible and Swedish historians have started to accept the links and their probability. They do not regard it as speculative. It is not much more that I can say off or on line, but if you have substantial evidence that the theory is wrong, the we can continue off line. Hakan At 02:16 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote: hakan, i wasn't disputing everything you suggest. what i do have trouble with, and correct me if i'm misinterpreting you, is the notion that the vikings could somehow be descended both from the roman legions and the turks. could there have been contact between the romans and scandinavia? possibly a trade relationship? certainly, but i find this questionable because the vikings would have had little if anything to offer that the romans weren't already getting from the peoples of britania, and western and central europe. it seems more likely that scandinavian goods would have found their way to the romans indirectly, via trade with the germanic peoples of central europe. but even if we suppose that there was direct trade contact, i highly doubt it could have had sufficient regularity or depth to be of significant cultural/technological
[Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans (was: Environmentalism is dead. What's next?)
hakan, i wasn't disputing everything you suggest. what i do have trouble with, and correct me if i'm misinterpreting you, is the notion that the vikings could somehow be descended both from the roman legions and the turks. could there have been contact between the romans and scandinavia? possibly a trade relationship? certainly, but i find this questionable because the vikings would have had little if anything to offer that the romans weren't already getting from the peoples of britania, and western and central europe. it seems more likely that scandinavian goods would have found their way to the romans indirectly, via trade with the germanic peoples of central europe. but even if we suppose that there was direct trade contact, i highly doubt it could have had sufficient regularity or depth to be of significant cultural/technological/political impact, with the possible exception of their longboats. but even this i've never heard suggested, and it seems about as likely that this influence could have come from phoenician traders. that is, if the viking longboat wasn't an entirely autoctonous technology. there may be more to the turkish/turkic relationship, because the history gets a little more complex. but it seems highly speculative in the least if not utterly baseless and fanciful, to suggest that the connections are anything but extremely remote in some cases, and superficial in others. anyway, except for the fact that (as was pointed out earlier in this thread) everything is connected to everything, we seem to have gone pretty far afield. perhaps you'd like to continue this discussion off-list? -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans
Chris, Look at my mail to Bob. The Vikings had a regular and well established trading relationship with Miklagård, which was Constantinople. This is proven in many ways, by written sagas and also by history from that part. When they visited Constantinople, it was special rules for them and they were not allowed to be a larger group or to have arms, which also is documented. All the links are there, it is possible and Swedish historians have started to accept the links and their probability. They do not regard it as speculative. It is not much more that I can say off or on line, but if you have substantial evidence that the theory is wrong, the we can continue off line. Hakan At 02:16 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote: hakan, i wasn't disputing everything you suggest. what i do have trouble with, and correct me if i'm misinterpreting you, is the notion that the vikings could somehow be descended both from the roman legions and the turks. could there have been contact between the romans and scandinavia? possibly a trade relationship? certainly, but i find this questionable because the vikings would have had little if anything to offer that the romans weren't already getting from the peoples of britania, and western and central europe. it seems more likely that scandinavian goods would have found their way to the romans indirectly, via trade with the germanic peoples of central europe. but even if we suppose that there was direct trade contact, i highly doubt it could have had sufficient regularity or depth to be of significant cultural/technological/political impact, with the possible exception of their longboats. but even this i've never heard suggested, and it seems about as likely that this influence could have come from phoenician traders. that is, if the viking longboat wasn't an entirely autoctonous technology. there may be more to the turkish/turkic relationship, because the history gets a little more complex. but it seems highly speculative in the least if not utterly baseless and fanciful, to suggest that the connections are anything but extremely remote in some cases, and superficial in others. anyway, except for the fact that (as was pointed out earlier in this thread) everything is connected to everything, we seem to have gone pretty far afield. perhaps you'd like to continue this discussion off-list? -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
