[Biofuel] was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
Whoa, you still sleep on a waterbed? ;-) I had one years ago, the good ones with the coils for added support. Had to get rid of it after about 8 months because of back pain and restless. nights. They are really bad for your back as they offer very little support. Anyone that I know who ever had one got rid of theirs, long time ago as well. Not just my opinion, believe me, your back will pay from it years from now if you keep using one for long enough. Thermoelectric cooling and heating could be much more more efficient than AC for localised use such as thermoelectric liquid cooled/heated water for bed blankets, cooling vests. Eliminates EMF flowing close to the body, possible hazardous fire risks, dual heating/cooling and uses approx 70% less power than traditional AC. eliminates those hot, sticky sheets and lowers the need for running your larger cooling unit. Sounds like an ad, huh? Lot's of cool applications, me thinks, Portable units get more difficult because you have to be able to provide about 4.8 amps peak / per duty cycle and about 1/2 amp continuous. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 14:23 Hey Kirk; Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The koolsuit is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A koolsuit would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by on the cheap was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.[LINK: http://www.geoexchange.org/] http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody rolling their own water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda
Re: [Biofuel] was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
I never said I had a waterbed. But I slept on one when I was staying with freinds one time and it got unplugged. Nasty. I preffer a futon. Air does flow through blankets and sheets (and the futon actually) and any time you run chilled water through pipes you can get condensation so talk about sticky sheets how about damp ones? So then are you going to use a vapor barrier? That makes for clammy sleeping believe me, I know, from using a vapor barrier inside my sleeping bag while camping in Canadian winter conditions. It keeps your insulation dry, true, but warm and clammy is not what most people refer to as comfort! No I'll stick with controlling air temperature thank you, but consider that a straw bale home with a poured earthen plaster or concrete floor combined with the thick plaster on the walls and the awesome insulation properties of the bales, has enough thermal mass to prevent interior air from getting so damn hot (or cold in the winter). Visit one of these homes and see for yourself. Joe AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Whoa, you still sleep on a waterbed? ;-) I had one years ago, the good ones with the coils for added support. Had to get rid of it after about 8 months because of back pain and restless. nights. They are really bad for your back as they offer very little support. Anyone that I know who ever had one got rid of theirs, long time ago as well. Not just my opinion, believe me, your back will pay from it years from now if you keep using one for long enough. Thermoelectric cooling and heating could be much more more efficient than AC for localised use such as thermoelectric liquid cooled/heated water for bed blankets, cooling vests. Eliminates EMF flowing close to the body, possible hazardous fire risks, dual heating/cooling and uses approx 70% less power than traditional AC. eliminates those hot, sticky sheets and lowers the need for running your larger cooling unit. Sounds like an ad, huh? Lot's of cool applications, me thinks, Portable units get more difficult because you have to be able to provide about 4.8 amps peak / per duty cycle and about 1/2 amp continuous. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 14:23 Hey Kirk; Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicat
Re: [Biofuel] was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
I've been sleeping on a waterbed for lets see about 35 years. The only time my back hurts is when I travel and sleep on anything but a waterbed. In the summer we peel back the cover and get the coolth. AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Whoa, you still sleep on a waterbed? ;-) I had one years ago, the good ones with the coils for added support. Had to get rid of it after about 8 months because of back pain and restless. nights. They are really bad for your back as they offer very little support. Anyone that I know who ever had one got rid of theirs, long time ago as well. Not just my opinion, believe me, your back will pay from it years from now if you keep using one for long enough. Thermoelectric cooling and heating could be much more more efficient than AC for localised use such as thermoelectric liquid cooled/heated water for bed blankets, cooling vests. Eliminates EMF flowing close to the body, possible hazardous fire risks, dual heating/cooling and uses approx 70% less power than traditional AC. eliminates those hot, sticky sheets and lowers the need for running your larger cooling unit. Sounds like an ad, huh? Lot's of cool applications, me thinks, Portable units get more difficult because you have to be able to provide about 4.8 amps peak / per duty cycle and about 1/2 amp continuous. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 14:23 Hey Kirk; Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The koolsuit is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A koolsuit would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by on the cheap was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.[LINK: http://www.geoexchange.org/] http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody rolling their own water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting
