Re: [biofuels-biz] Biofuels for the emerging nations
Hello Keith, I wonder how you can answer all these discussion contributions. Where are you now staying with your landrover? Are you still traveling or are you in Osaka? I think I saw the name Osaka at one of your replies. Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Reinhard Thanks for the reply. Hello Keith, We ran the lister type diesel engine directly with Jatropha oil, which was just sedimented. The only adjustment of the engine was a second fuel filter. Well, thankyou, that's what I thought. There's a Biofuel list member in Australia who runs an old Lister in straight chicken fat. But there seem to be different kinds of Listers. I wonder if the Lister sold in the US, for instance, is the same as the type made in India and Sri Lanka, and probably in China too. Is it a generic name as well as a brand? Like Petromax - you know the Petromax lanterns? Nice things, burn biodiesel or ethanol just as happily, and you can put a stove on top. They're also made in India, Singapore, Taiwan, China, but not quite the same, and not always the same quality as the original. In the case of the Lister though, the Third World type might be better (tougher). The Lister type engine is a heavy stationary diesel engine of different brands, like Field Marshall or Mercury or Anil. They are of the development stage of 1926 (when the Indians (?) copied the Lister diesel engine) and did not change since then. You can see a photo of it at the following address: http://www.jatropha.org/india/rcac.htm The Listers which are sold now, are DI engines, where modification to run SVO is more complicated. A UN-project took this over and they were disseminating the Lister type diesel engines with plant oil. But right now they don't mention any more the aspect of runningf the engine with Jatropha fuel. I noticed that. And it's quite an expensive project now. And less adaptible, more top-down? see: http://www.ptfm.net Well, it is very expensive. The basic idea is not bad: to have a energy centre in the village, where you can make flower, grind shea butter, charge batteries, maske electricity for lighting and welding, water pumping, etc. But the first responsable of the project promoted the use of Jatropha oil, but he did not succeed in disseminating Jatropha plantation and the extraction of the Jatropha oil. We also had a study done by a German diesel engine producer. He concluded that the Jatropha oil can be used as fuel without problems. He also used the Jatropha oil as lubricant and said it is ok. Our idea was, to use the oil first as lubricant, and then burn it as fuel in the engine. This was in a Lister? I think Lister or not, generators are more forgiving of SVO (or WVO) use than a car engine would be. The test was done in one of these stationary Lister type engines, not Lister. The engine was running for 300 hours . It was stated, that the Fieldmarshal FMII is suited to be lubricated with plant oil and run on the same oil as fuel. Here in Germany modern direct injection diesel engines are converted to run on SVO. There is also a modification kit available for precombustion chamber engines, which you can install by yourself. In a workshop in Denmark even an musician was able to do it, so it should not be too difficult: They change the injectotor to a pintle injector and change the incandescent plug (?) to one which glows much longer, if not almost permanently. Then the fuel pipe from the reservoir is replaced by a larger one, and a second fuel filter is added. This filter is heated with en electric heat band. Also a heat exchanger is installed, which gives the heat of the cooling water to the oil. The are also some switches and relais to regulate it. The whole systen costs about 800 Euro/US$, that depends on the car. http://www.elsbett.com Have you seen our SVO page? Reffed below - we mention Elsbett there, and other SVO systems. I think the Elsbett and Biocar systems from Germany might be the only good way to run a modern DI on SVO. But I think WVO would still need pre-treatment - they don't cover WVO in their warranties, do they? My view of it is that if you're going to be sure of not messing up your DI and since it needs considerable pre-treatment anyway, you might just as well turn the WVO into biodiesel and be safe and sure. But again, the ACREVO study mentioned below really deserves some follow up - adding 9% of 95% ethanol to SVO brought combustion characteristics (and emissions reductions) that a DI could probably live with quite happily. DIs could then use the same modification kit as for IDIs rather than having to be converted. I am mainly concerned with plant oil as fuel in developing countries on the basis of village technology, and in this case all blends of oil with alcohol or biodiesel make the system more complicated (oil extraction is a simple
Re: [biofuels-biz] Biofuels for the emerging nations
Hello Reinhard Hello Keith, I wonder how you can answer all these discussion contributions. So do I!! With difficulty... long hours. Where are you now staying with your landrover? Are you still traveling or are you in Osaka? I think I saw the name Osaka at one of your replies. We're in Osaka. The journey-proper hasn't begun yet, still quite a lot to do. Shouldn't be too long now though, we're getting there. This is a long-term project, it will take years, so we're not in a hurry - but not wasting any time either. When we're good and ready is time enough. Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Reinhard Thanks for the reply. Hello Keith, We ran the lister type diesel engine directly with Jatropha oil, which was just sedimented. The only adjustment of the engine was a second fuel filter. Well, thankyou, that's what I thought. There's a Biofuel list member in Australia who runs an old Lister in straight chicken fat. But there seem to be different kinds of Listers. I wonder if the Lister sold in the US, for instance, is the same as the type made in India and Sri Lanka, and probably in China too. Is it a generic name as well as a brand? Like Petromax - you know the Petromax lanterns? Nice things, burn biodiesel or ethanol just as happily, and you can put a stove on top. They're also made in India, Singapore, Taiwan, China, but not quite the same, and not always the same quality as the original. In the case of the Lister though, the Third World type might be better (tougher). The Lister type engine is a heavy stationary diesel engine of different brands, like Field Marshall or Mercury or Anil. They are of the development stage of 1926 (when the Indians (?) copied the Lister diesel engine) and did not change since then. You can see a photo of it at the following address: http://www.jatropha.org/india/rcac.htm The Listers which are sold now, are DI engines, where modification to run SVO is more complicated. Right, that explains a lot. Lister-type is much better, I'll use that in future. Thanks. One of the world's problems, eh? Develop everything until it loses application rather than gains it. Maybe good is good enough in some cases, and better isn't. They give you a Rolls-Royce when all you needed was a bicycle. The old Lister-type isn't very efficient and it doesn't burn very clean, but if it's burning local plant oils it'll be clean enough, and IMO efficiency very much includes how it fits the local context, much more so than the technical specs. In the Third World setting, there's often an existing local knowledge-base for the old type and even where not they're so simple that training local mechanics and workshops is easy, whereas parts, and maybe more than parts, can be locally fabricated (as with the Sundhara press). That builds local capacities much more than a more efficient but more complex motor could do. A UN-project took this over and they were disseminating the Lister type diesel engines with plant oil. But right now they don't mention any more the aspect of runningf the engine with Jatropha fuel. I noticed that. And it's quite an expensive project now. And less adaptible, more top-down? see: http://www.ptfm.net Well, it is very expensive. The basic idea is not bad: to have a energy centre in the village, where you can make flower, grind shea butter, charge batteries, maske electricity for lighting and welding, water pumping, etc. But the first responsable of the project promoted the use of Jatropha oil, but he did not succeed in disseminating Jatropha plantation and the extraction of the Jatropha oil. I wonder if that might not have had something to do with its being expensive, and maybe not very adaptible. A more flexible scheme, less pre-packaged, very modular, where the local community had much more say in the design and application, with financing etc left open to be sorted out on a per-project basis, like everything else, might perhaps have got further. When it's done that way the local community feels they have a bigger stake (because they do), it's THEIR project, which improves the chances of long-term success. Such projects also tend to extend themselves to neighbouring communities more easily. We're very interested in something like that, as mentioned. What would the UN project have done had they found an old defunct Lister in a prospective project area, that just needed a few parts and a clean-up? Would they have included it, financed the required overhaul, and dropped the new-motor requirement? I think much of the Third World is rather littered with diesel motors. Conditions are often rough, and the motors last a lot longer than the vehicles do. Good used Toyota or Nissan diesel motors often only cost a couple of hundred dollars or less, and though more complex, might well fit local conditions and capacities very nicely, especially considering the reduced
Re: [biofuels-biz] Biofuels for the emerging nations
There are initiatives to produce plant oil and use it as fuel (Jatropha oil). But in a direct way (SVO = straight vegetable oil). I think it is much more easy to use the pure plant oil and adapt the engine to use it. Some stationary engines even don't have to be modified, like the Indian Lister type engines, which you find in East African countries. You find a list of Jatropha initiatives in the different countries in the Jatropha website http://www.jatropha.org cliocking on network asnd countries. Regards Reinhard Henning Nizar W. Ramji [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I need information if there are any projects pertaining to biofuels for East African Countries(Tanzania, Kenya and Uganda)? Nizar W. Ramji - Post your ad for free now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] internet: www.bagani.de Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Biofuels for the emerging nations
Hello Reinhard, Nizar There are initiatives to produce plant oil and use it as fuel (Jatropha oil). But in a direct way (SVO = straight vegetable oil). I think it is much more easy to use the pure plant oil and adapt the engine to use it. Some stationary engines even don't have to be modified, like the Indian Lister type engines, which you find in East African countries. That depends on many factors, not just the motor but also the circumstances, and individual preferences. There's good information on the choices and options here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: Guide to using vegetable oil as diesel fuel SVO systems References SVO vs biodiesel in Europe European SVO resources Diesel information Fats and oils Regarding Listers, I'm very interested in this. I mentioned to a biodiesel researcher that Listers would eat just about anything, and this was his reply: We found the Lister was not all that tolerant. It seems the biodiesel debate has been plagued with misconceptions which become the standard myth. At the time the belief was that the severe problems found with running diesels on veg oil were due to viscosity. We had heard that the South Africans had successfully run tractors on methyl esters so tried the following experiment. We blended distillate with rapeseed oil to a viscosity similar to methyl esters and compared that fuel with methyl esters in the Lister. We had a known load and could feed the fuel through a burette so could work out efficiency. We found the motor would run on esters for long periods with no change while with the blended fuel it lost power and efficiency within hours. The power could be fully restored by wiping the injector nozzle with a rag. So we concluded that viscosity was not the problem but rather it was the chemical nature of the triglyceride. I think he meant to say tractors on SVO, not methyl esters - that would refer to this study: http://www.biodiesel.org/cgi-local/search.cgi?action=view_reportid=GEN-292 See section concerning South Africa, indirect injection engines, 1800 hours, warranty issuance from manufacturer based on results - Fuls. J., Hawkins, C.S. and Hugo, F.J.C., 1984, Tractor Engine Performance on Sunflower Oil Fuel, Journal of Agricultural Engineering Research 30:29-35. With that proviso, what he says is rather born out by the findings of the ACREVO study in France: Report of the European Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) study of the use of straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel. Investigates the burning characteristics of vegetable oil droplets from experiments conducted under high pressure and high temperature conditions. Very interesting study, worth a thorough read (4,400 words). http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm But I still have the idea that you can feed a Lister on just about anything! What do you think, Reinhard? Anyway, Nizar, what do you have in mind? Do you have any plans of your own? You're thinking of biodiesel/SVO for diesels, or of ethanol? Are you considering own-use or a larger project? Do you have any thoughts or information on available feedstocks? There is an institute in Nairobi that's planning a biodiesel initiative. If you tell us a bit more maybe I could put you in touch with them. Best wishes Keith Addison You find a list of Jatropha initiatives in the different countries in the Jatropha website http://www.jatropha.org cliocking on network asnd countries. Regards Reinhard Henning Nizar W. Ramji [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I need information if there are any projects pertaining to biofuels for East African Countries(Tanzania, Kenya and Uganda)? Nizar W. Ramji Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Biofuels for the emerging nations
Hello Keith, We ran the lister type diesel engine directly with Jatropha oil, which was just sedimented. The only adjustment of the engine was a second fuel filter. A UN-project took this over and they were disseminating the Lister type diesel engines with plant oil. But right now they don't mention any more the aspect of runningf the engine with Jatropha fuel. see: http://www.ptfm.net We also had a study done by a German diesel engine producer. He concluded that the Jatropha oil can be used as fuel without problems. He also used the Jatropha oil as lubricant and said it is ok. Our idea was, to use the oil first as lubricant, and then burn it as fuel in the engine. - Here in Germany modern direct injection diesel engines are converted to run on SVO. There is also a modification kit available for precombustion chamber engines, which you can install by yourself. In a workshop in Denmark even an musician was able to do it, so it should not be too difficult: They change the injectotor to a pintle injector and change the incandescent plug (?) to one which glows much longer, if not almost permanently. Then the fuel pipe from the reservoir is replaced by a larger one, and a second fuel filter is added. This filter is heated with en electric heat band. Also a heat exchanger is installed, which gives the heat of the cooling water to the oil. The are also some switches and relais to regulate it. The whole systen costs about 800 Euro/US$, that depends on the car. http://www.elsbett.com At the 7. of July there is a meeting of SVO drivers/users in Germany. I will go there. Perhaps I know a bit more about the subject afterwards. Best regards Reinhard Henning Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Reinhard, Nizar There are initiatives to produce plant oil and use it as fuel (Jatropha oil). But in a direct way (SVO = straight vegetable oil). I think it is much more easy to use the pure plant oil and adapt the engine to use it. Some stationary engines even don't have to be modified, like the Indian Lister type engines, which you find in East African countries. That depends on many factors, not just the motor but also the circumstances, and individual preferences. There's good information on the choices and options here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: Guide to using vegetable oil as diesel fuel SVO systems References SVO vs biodiesel in Europe European SVO resources Diesel information Fats and oils Regarding Listers, I'm very interested in this. I mentioned to a biodiesel researcher that Listers would eat just about anything, and this was his reply: We found the Lister was not all that tolerant. It seems the biodiesel debate has been plagued with misconceptions which become the standard myth. At the time the belief was that the severe problems found with running diesels on veg oil were due to viscosity. We had heard that the South Africans had successfully run tractors on methyl esters so tried the following experiment. We blended distillate with rapeseed oil to a viscosity similar to methyl esters and compared that fuel with methyl esters in the Lister. We had a known load and could feed the fuel through a burette so could work out efficiency. We found the motor would run on esters for long periods with no change while with the blended fuel it lost power and efficiency within hours. The power could be fully restored by wiping the injector nozzle with a rag. So we concluded that viscosity was not the problem but rather it was the chemical nature of the triglyceride. I think he meant to say tractors on SVO, not methyl esters - that would refer to this study: http://www.biodiesel.org/cgi-local/search.cgi?action=view_reportid=GEN-292 See section concerning South Africa, indirect injection engines, 1800 hours, warranty issuance from manufacturer based on results - Fuls. J., Hawkins, C.S. and Hugo, F.J.C., 1984, Tractor Engine Performance on Sunflower Oil Fuel, Journal of Agricultural Engineering Research 30:29-35. With that proviso, what he says is rather born out by the findings of the ACREVO study in France: Report of the European Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) study of the use of straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel. Investigates the burning characteristics of vegetable oil droplets from experiments conducted under high pressure and high temperature conditions. Very interesting study, worth a thorough read (4,400 words). http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm But I still have the idea that you can feed a Lister on just about anything! What do you think, Reinhard? Anyway, Nizar, what do you have in mind? Do you have any plans of your own? You're thinking of biodiesel/SVO for diesels, or of ethanol? Are you considering own-use or a larger project? Do you have any
Re: [biofuels-biz] Biofuels for the emerging nations
Hello Reinhard Thanks for the reply. Hello Keith, We ran the lister type diesel engine directly with Jatropha oil, which was just sedimented. The only adjustment of the engine was a second fuel filter. Well, thankyou, that's what I thought. There's a Biofuel list member in Australia who runs an old Lister in straight chicken fat. But there seem to be different kinds of Listers. I wonder if the Lister sold in the US, for instance, is the same as the type made in India and Sri Lanka, and probably in China too. Is it a generic name as well as a brand? Like Petromax - you know the Petromax lanterns? Nice things, burn biodiesel or ethanol just as happily, and you can put a stove on top. They're also made in India, Singapore, Taiwan, China, but not quite the same, and not always the same quality as the original. In the case of the Lister though, the Third World type might be better (tougher). A UN-project took this over and they were disseminating the Lister type diesel engines with plant oil. But right now they don't mention any more the aspect of runningf the engine with Jatropha fuel. I noticed that. And it's quite an expensive project now. And less adaptible, more top-down? see: http://www.ptfm.net We also had a study done by a German diesel engine producer. He concluded that the Jatropha oil can be used as fuel without problems. He also used the Jatropha oil as lubricant and said it is ok. Our idea was, to use the oil first as lubricant, and then burn it as fuel in the engine. - This was in a Lister? I think Lister or not, generators are more forgiving of SVO (or WVO) use than a car engine would be. Here in Germany modern direct injection diesel engines are converted to run on SVO. There is also a modification kit available for precombustion chamber engines, which you can install by yourself. In a workshop in Denmark even an musician was able to do it, so it should not be too difficult: They change the injectotor to a pintle injector and change the incandescent plug (?) to one which glows much longer, if not almost permanently. Then the fuel pipe from the reservoir is replaced by a larger one, and a second fuel filter is added. This filter is heated with en electric heat band. Also a heat exchanger is installed, which gives the heat of the cooling water to the oil. The are also some switches and relais to regulate it. The whole systen costs about 800 Euro/US$, that depends on the car. http://www.elsbett.com Have you seen our SVO page? Reffed below - we mention Elsbett there, and other SVO systems. I think the Elsbett and Biocar systems from Germany might be the only good way to run a modern DI on SVO. But I think WVO would still need pre-treatment - they don't cover WVO in their warranties, do they? My view of it is that if you're going to be sure of not messing up your DI and since it needs considerable pre-treatment anyway, you might just as well turn the WVO into biodiesel and be safe and sure. But again, the ACREVO study mentioned below really deserves some follow up - adding 9% of 95% ethanol to SVO brought combustion characteristics (and emissions reductions) that a DI could probably live with quite happily. DIs could then use the same modification kit as for IDIs rather than having to be converted. At the 7. of July there is a meeting of SVO drivers/users in Germany. I will go there. Perhaps I know a bit more about the subject afterwards. We'd appreciate a report-back, if you have the time. Best wishes Keith Best regards Reinhard Henning Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Reinhard, Nizar There are initiatives to produce plant oil and use it as fuel (Jatropha oil). But in a direct way (SVO = straight vegetable oil). I think it is much more easy to use the pure plant oil and adapt the engine to use it. Some stationary engines even don't have to be modified, like the Indian Lister type engines, which you find in East African countries. That depends on many factors, not just the motor but also the circumstances, and individual preferences. There's good information on the choices and options here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: Guide to using vegetable oil as diesel fuel SVO systems References SVO vs biodiesel in Europe European SVO resources Diesel information Fats and oils Regarding Listers, I'm very interested in this. I mentioned to a biodiesel researcher that Listers would eat just about anything, and this was his reply: We found the Lister was not all that tolerant. It seems the biodiesel debate has been plagued with misconceptions which become the standard myth. At the time the belief was that the severe problems found with running diesels on veg oil were due to viscosity. We had heard that the South Africans had successfully run tractors on methyl esters so tried the following experiment. We
[biofuels-biz] Biofuels for the emerging nations
I need information if there are any projects pertaining to biofuels for East African Countries(Tanzania, Kenya and Uganda)? Nizar W. Ramji - Post your ad for free now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
