Re: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing
pvc was almost outlawed in the usa about 20-25 years ago because it doesn't break down very well ,,, the primary thorn in everyones side? clorox bottles! ! Robert murdoch wrote: I'm sorry for posting this to the biofuel group, but there seem to be many sustainability-minded people there, and I don't know of the precise appropriate group. I'm also posting to an inventing ideas group I started, because when we have ideas that relate to inventions, it would be nice to write them down, particularly for those of us who have more or less written off any hope of ever being compensated for such, so that the idea does not fade away. I am posting this to Steve's appropriate community group, although I'm not entirely certain it's the sort of post that belongs there. Hopefully it will not be too far away from their considerations. I am selling my place and buying another, and have been doing a lot of catch-up research on a lot of things having to do with housing. Not so much limited to sustainability but anyway... One of the big areas is plumbing. I've had enough difficulties in an attached dwelling where my or others' plumbing goes bad, after awhile, that I will place some priority on this in buying another dwelling. In an attached dwelling, technical problems become social problems or legal (i.e., you have to go through an HOA to get anything done, and they sometimes don't mind behaving illegally). I asked a plumber today what he would look for in buying a new house. He said: 1. No slab dwellings with plumbing built-in (apparently a going-strong method around here) because when the plumbing goes bad, how do you get at it to fix it? 2. No Quest (sp?) pipes, apparently a brand that was particularly bad, and the replacement of which provides his firm with a lot of business. The slab dwelling comment had been made to me by a friend who had recently personally had this inconvenience, although I will take it with a grain of salt. Also of course I'm sure many technological and sustainable recommendations are regional. There aren't many basements around here, for example (dunno why not). Anyway, we then got into a very general conversation about what *are* the best pipes, and what is *really* built to last, although I didn't come away with a firm idea. Copper of course came up, and not too many other technologies were mentioned. But no matter the pipes, eventually they all leak. And I wondered why that was, at least for the amount of time and trouble it causes, and I wondered if the situation could be improved upon by super-inventive people. Good gosh, what a pain when plumbing goes awry! One more thing for today. Once in awhile I have self-doubt as to the wisdom of putting forth ad hoc my thoughts are these comments on the internet. What for, aside from just personal I have something to say motivations? But once in awhile, if you're just burning with an idea, I think you have to set it forth in the most appropriate forums that you can, and have done with it. It is ok to do, and once in awhile you'll get feedback that will make it seem or be worth your while. That, anyway, is my experience. And sometimes it's not just to read through some posts to respond to the one that piques some thought, but to simply write an essay, out of the blue, only because you were thinking about something that others might not have been giving consideration. And I think that's what some of us do, so if others aren't into it, then that's their business. But the consequence of *not* doing this is, perhaps, letting good ideas go to waste, even if there are so many bad ones perhaps there too. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing
Dear MM, Modern sustainable plumbing does not really exist, but I can give you some guide lines in how to judge an existing plumbing. If the house is to your liking, then the plumbing is a secondary problem and it is more of a question to judge the extend and the costs of fixing it. It is all about the age of the house, materials and design used and how easy it is to fix problems. It is more than 40 years ago that we in Sweden abandon built in pipes and started to give maintenance a high priority in the design. The first thing you should do is to evaluate how easy it would be to replace the existing piping. How would you go, if you had to replace the piping? With this I mean the easiness of finding the path that you would use for new pipes. Then you can easily do a primary evaluation of the problems that might arise. The first indications is to look at the age of the existing piping and its quality. If the installation is more than 15 years old, you can use the following, Plastic piping is probably a risk, since it is only the last 15 years that proper plastic piping have been available. Even if the house is younger, it is a large risk that sub standard plastic piping was used. Need to be checked carefully. Copper pipes are probably the most common and the you have to check the copper thickness of the pipe. ! mm copper pipes in tap water, have an average life span of 45 years and for 0.6 mm the average life span is only 15 years. Thicker than 1 mm is not common, but would of course be a substantially longer life span. So if you buy a house who is 30-40 years old with original plumbing, your evaluation of replacing the pipes is very essential. The new plastic pipes, if you use the proper ones in a proper way, make it more possible to do installations with higher average life span than 45 years. It is only a few manufacturers of adequate pipes for this. Since you are buying an existing house, I will not bore you with the considerations for designing a new house. Hakan At 07:42 PM 3/8/2003 -0800, you wrote: I'm sorry for posting this to the biofuel group, but there seem to be many sustainability-minded people there, and I don't know of the precise appropriate group. I'm also posting to an inventing ideas group I started, because when we have ideas that relate to inventions, it would be nice to write them down, particularly for those of us who have more or less written off any hope of ever being compensated for such, so that the idea does not fade away. I am posting this to Steve's appropriate community group, although I'm not entirely certain it's the sort of post that belongs there. Hopefully it will not be too far away from their considerations. I am selling my place and buying another, and have been doing a lot of catch-up research on a lot of things having to do with housing. Not so much limited to sustainability but anyway... One of the big areas is plumbing. I've had enough difficulties in an attached dwelling where my or others' plumbing goes bad, after awhile, that I will place some priority on this in buying another dwelling. In an attached dwelling, technical problems become social problems or legal (i.e., you have to go through an HOA to get anything done, and they sometimes don't mind behaving illegally). I asked a plumber today what he would look for in buying a new house. He said: 1. No slab dwellings with plumbing built-in (apparently a going-strong method around here) because when the plumbing goes bad, how do you get at it to fix it? 2. No Quest (sp?) pipes, apparently a brand that was particularly bad, and the replacement of which provides his firm with a lot of business. The slab dwelling comment had been made to me by a friend who had recently personally had this inconvenience, although I will take it with a grain of salt. Also of course I'm sure many technological and sustainable recommendations are regional. There aren't many basements around here, for example (dunno why not). Anyway, we then got into a very general conversation about what *are* the best pipes, and what is *really* built to last, although I didn't come away with a firm idea. Copper of course came up, and not too many other technologies were mentioned. But no matter the pipes, eventually they all leak. And I wondered why that was, at least for the amount of time and trouble it causes, and I wondered if the situation could be improved upon by super-inventive people. Good gosh, what a pain when plumbing goes awry! One more thing for today. Once in awhile I have self-doubt as to the wisdom of putting forth ad hoc my thoughts are these comments on the internet. What for, aside from just personal I have something to say motivations? But once in awhile, if you're just burning with an idea, I think you have to set it forth in the most appropriate forums that you can, and have done with it. It is ok to do, and once in awhile you'll get feedback that will make it seem or be worth your
Re: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing
The new plastic pipes, if you use the proper ones in a proper way, make it more possible to do installations with higher average life span than 45 years. It is only a few manufacturers of adequate pipes for this. Since you are buying an existing house, I will not bore you with the considerations for designing a new house. Hakan: Thx for the response. Go ahead and bore me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious as to which few manufacturers can best the others if one wishes to build a house to last in all possible ways. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing
Don Lancaster pretty much published the realities of patents. Besides, if you patent an earthshaker it will be quashed. If you make it public domain all will benefit and your standard of living will raise too. You can't be cheated out of that. Kirk -Original Message- From: murdoch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 10:18 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing whats the URL for your inventing ideas group? Kirk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inventingideas/?yguid=109391995 With these idea groups, the idea isn't necessarily for me to push hard for a lot of conversation, but 50% of it is I see no reason why I, or someone else, should let ideas die on the vine in their head, but might want to set them onto their hard drives, so they are preserved in some way, and if others wish to peruse them at some point then fine. Again: if you want your ideas kept secret or to patent them or whatever, then you won't want to make them explicit in these groups. I don't have any hope of patent law being enforced fairly in my lifetime (though you're certainly willing to state views to the contrary in those groups), so I don't care. Also I have recently created: Business ideas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ideasforbusiness/?yguid=109391995 Software Ideas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/softwareideas/?yguid=109391995 Energy Policy: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/?yguid=109391995 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.458 / Virus Database: 257 - Release Date: 2/24/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing
whats the URL for your inventing ideas group? Kirk -Original Message- From: murdoch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 8:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: biofuel@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing I'm sorry for posting this to the biofuel group, but there seem to be many sustainability-minded people there, and I don't know of the precise appropriate group. I'm also posting to an inventing ideas group I started, because when we have ideas that relate to inventions, it would be nice to write them down, particularly for those of us who have more or less written off any hope of ever being compensated for such, so that the idea does not fade away. I am posting this to Steve's appropriate community group, although I'm not entirely certain it's the sort of post that belongs there. Hopefully it will not be too far away from their considerations. I am selling my place and buying another, and have been doing a lot of catch-up research on a lot of things having to do with housing. Not so much limited to sustainability but anyway... One of the big areas is plumbing. I've had enough difficulties in an attached dwelling where my or others' plumbing goes bad, after awhile, that I will place some priority on this in buying another dwelling. In an attached dwelling, technical problems become social problems or legal (i.e., you have to go through an HOA to get anything done, and they sometimes don't mind behaving illegally). I asked a plumber today what he would look for in buying a new house. He said: 1. No slab dwellings with plumbing built-in (apparently a going-strong method around here) because when the plumbing goes bad, how do you get at it to fix it? 2. No Quest (sp?) pipes, apparently a brand that was particularly bad, and the replacement of which provides his firm with a lot of business. The slab dwelling comment had been made to me by a friend who had recently personally had this inconvenience, although I will take it with a grain of salt. Also of course I'm sure many technological and sustainable recommendations are regional. There aren't many basements around here, for example (dunno why not). Anyway, we then got into a very general conversation about what *are* the best pipes, and what is *really* built to last, although I didn't come away with a firm idea. Copper of course came up, and not too many other technologies were mentioned. But no matter the pipes, eventually they all leak. And I wondered why that was, at least for the amount of time and trouble it causes, and I wondered if the situation could be improved upon by super-inventive people. Good gosh, what a pain when plumbing goes awry! One more thing for today. Once in awhile I have self-doubt as to the wisdom of putting forth ad hoc my thoughts are these comments on the internet. What for, aside from just personal I have something to say motivations? But once in awhile, if you're just burning with an idea, I think you have to set it forth in the most appropriate forums that you can, and have done with it. It is ok to do, and once in awhile you'll get feedback that will make it seem or be worth your while. That, anyway, is my experience. And sometimes it's not just to read through some posts to respond to the one that piques some thought, but to simply write an essay, out of the blue, only because you were thinking about something that others might not have been giving consideration. And I think that's what some of us do, so if others aren't into it, then that's their business. But the consequence of *not* doing this is, perhaps, letting good ideas go to waste, even if there are so many bad ones perhaps there too. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.458 / Virus Database: 257 - Release Date: 2/24/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing
whats the URL for your inventing ideas group? Kirk http://groups.yahoo.com/group/inventingideas/?yguid=109391995 With these idea groups, the idea isn't necessarily for me to push hard for a lot of conversation, but 50% of it is I see no reason why I, or someone else, should let ideas die on the vine in their head, but might want to set them onto their hard drives, so they are preserved in some way, and if others wish to peruse them at some point then fine. Again: if you want your ideas kept secret or to patent them or whatever, then you won't want to make them explicit in these groups. I don't have any hope of patent law being enforced fairly in my lifetime (though you're certainly willing to state views to the contrary in those groups), so I don't care. Also I have recently created: Business ideas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ideasforbusiness/?yguid=109391995 Software Ideas: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/softwareideas/?yguid=109391995 Energy Policy: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/?yguid=109391995 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing
Hi MM Plumbing isn't necessarily off-topic. We've just had discussion on using hot water to provide process heat for making biodiesel, definitely involves plumbing - I'll be needing to learn more about this soon, for one. What do you heat it with, anyway - preferably biogas maybe, or a WVO burner? Post just in about treating the wash-water, also a plumbing subject - or rather less plumbing (use a graywater system). Distilling fuel ethanol requires cooling water, again a plumbing matter. And so on. Anyway there've been long discussions here about energy-efficient building and buildings, which included a lot of general stuff. No problem at all, as far as I'm concerned, from the moderator's point of view. So please feel free. I'm sorry for posting this to the biofuel group, but there seem to be many sustainability-minded people there, and I don't know of the precise appropriate group. I'm happy for people to use the group this way. I'm also posting to an inventing ideas group I started, because when we have ideas that relate to inventions, it would be nice to write them down, particularly for those of us who have more or less written off any hope of ever being compensated for such, so that the idea does not fade away. I am posting this to Steve's appropriate community group, although I'm not entirely certain it's the sort of post that belongs there. Hopefully it will not be too far away from their considerations. I am selling my place and buying another, and have been doing a lot of catch-up research on a lot of things having to do with housing. Not so much limited to sustainability but anyway... One of the big areas is plumbing. I've had enough difficulties in an attached dwelling where my or others' plumbing goes bad, after awhile, that I will place some priority on this in buying another dwelling. In an attached dwelling, technical problems become social problems or legal (i.e., you have to go through an HOA to get anything done, and they sometimes don't mind behaving illegally). I asked a plumber today what he would look for in buying a new house. He said: 1. No slab dwellings with plumbing built-in (apparently a going-strong method around here) because when the plumbing goes bad, how do you get at it to fix it? 2. No Quest (sp?) pipes, apparently a brand that was particularly bad, and the replacement of which provides his firm with a lot of business. The slab dwelling comment had been made to me by a friend who had recently personally had this inconvenience, although I will take it with a grain of salt. Also of course I'm sure many technological and sustainable recommendations are regional. There aren't many basements around here, for example (dunno why not). Anyway, we then got into a very general conversation about what *are* the best pipes, and what is *really* built to last, although I didn't come away with a firm idea. Copper of course came up, and not too many other technologies were mentioned. But no matter the pipes, eventually they all leak. And I wondered why that was, at least for the amount of time and trouble it causes, and I wondered if the situation could be improved upon by super-inventive people. Good gosh, what a pain when plumbing goes awry! One more thing for today. Once in awhile I have self-doubt as to the wisdom of putting forth ad hoc my thoughts are these comments on the internet. What for, aside from just personal I have something to say motivations? But once in awhile, if you're just burning with an idea, I think you have to set it forth in the most appropriate forums that you can, and have done with it. It is ok to do, and once in awhile you'll get feedback that will make it seem or be worth your while. That, anyway, is my experience. And sometimes it's not just to read through some posts to respond to the one that piques some thought, but to simply write an essay, out of the blue, only because you were thinking about something that others might not have been giving consideration. And I think that's what some of us do, so if others aren't into it, then that's their business. But the consequence of *not* doing this is, perhaps, letting good ideas go to waste, even if there are so many bad ones perhaps there too. Also you're feeding the archives, and IMO the broader the range of stuff in there the better it works. Not to say shoving any junk in there is a Good Thing - six or seven sets of footers at the bottom of messages, unsnipped stuff going in again and again as a thread continues, headings such as Re: [biofuels] Digest Number 20186 don't help at all, clutter the thing up. But information like this post is either useful or neutral. Ideas, yes, please - as for whether they're good or not... As Chairman Mao said when asked by a French journalist if he thought the French Revolution had been a success: Too soon to tell. What's also impossible to tell at the time of writing/posting such ideas is whether they'll spark off a
Re: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing
Slab leaks are a royal pain in the saddle and expensive to repair. The practice of pouring concrete over plumbing is often associated with block houses, as it is an inconvenience of uneconomic proportions to the builder to place the plumbing in any other fashion. Problems usually occur from settling and lightning strikes near the building. Settling can easily perforate a pipe, while lightning even as far as a block away can create multiple pin holes or weaken pipe walls in multiple places, providing for future leaks. Copper is a superb conducter and frequently the path of choice for a lightning strike as it fingers out through the ground. PVC is prone to leaks. It is also prone to splitting in cold regions. Many people swear by it. But for my money I would classify it as the cheap (not necessarily poor) person's way out and put it in the same category as cast brass - reasonably functional but very problematic and probably every bit as and more costly in the long run. Your best bet, in my not so always humble opinion (IMNSAHO), is the heavier Type L copper (blue print on the tubing) or K (even thicker with green print on the tubing). Type M is frequently used but is thinner walled. (I would still rate type M as better than PVC.) As for construction type? I'd take any structure with the plumbing in the walls or chases over a slab pour, even if there was a run in the attic. Copper, if installed well (and almost any 6th grader can do it well with a little experience and care) should last the life of the house. Sure there will be an occasional leak. But it's rather doubtful that they will be along any run. One great concern when buying a home plumbed with copper, even if it's new construction, is that the drinking water (fresh water) plumbing is joined with lead free solder. In the US lead solder has been outlawed for this application for decades. However, there have been numerous occurences across the country where construction was found to have lead soldered joints - the result of either a mistake or carelessness on the part of the home owner or contractors/subcontractors. No different than termites, you'll want certification that the plumbing is lead free before you buy the building. And on that note, there may still be some older residential and commercial buildings out there that have lead pipes, generally circa 1930 and older. Even if the house proper is inspected and found to be lead free, occasionally a run from the public line to the home will be lead. Doubtful that you'll ever see this. But they do still exist. Other than that, you can always buy a home with a shallow well below and a hand pump installed right at the kitchen sink / wash tub. The fire box / stove would be conveniently located adjacent to the sink / pump so that you could move your five gallon pot directly from one to the other during winter without any plumbing. (Not kidding. I've seen it done and it's still done intentionally as well as out of necessity to this day.) I'd go for it, but with perhaps a few modifications, like a secondary hand operated centrifigal pump (large wheel fireman's type) to a gravity fed shower, or solar collector during spring, summer and fall, etc. Hey! It saves on electricity and makes you think twice about the water before you consume it. That and it works perfectly well during power outages or if off the grid. Todd - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: biofuel@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 10:42 PM Subject: [biofuel] OT: sustainable plumbing I'm sorry for posting this to the biofuel group, but there seem to be many sustainability-minded people there, and I don't know of the precise appropriate group. I'm also posting to an inventing ideas group I started, because when we have ideas that relate to inventions, it would be nice to write them down, particularly for those of us who have more or less written off any hope of ever being compensated for such, so that the idea does not fade away. I am posting this to Steve's appropriate community group, although I'm not entirely certain it's the sort of post that belongs there. Hopefully it will not be too far away from their considerations. I am selling my place and buying another, and have been doing a lot of catch-up research on a lot of things having to do with housing. Not so much limited to sustainability but anyway... One of the big areas is plumbing. I've had enough difficulties in an attached dwelling where my or others' plumbing goes bad, after awhile, that I will place some priority on this in buying another dwelling. In an attached dwelling, technical problems become social problems or legal (i.e., you have to go through an HOA to get anything done, and they sometimes don't mind behaving illegally). I asked a plumber today what he would look for in buying a new house. He said: 1. No slab dwellings with plumbing built-in
