Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol to evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the water below the castor. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Logan; I wanted to try this as a continuous process so the oil is floating on the alcohol/water mixture. In this case one cannot heat to the boiling point of the alcohol much less the boiling point of water. As soon as any bubbles form they would rise through the oil defeating the purpose of the oil as a barrier. I was hoping it would be as you said, that the alcohol would diffuse into the oil and due to the cooler temperature above and lower density of the alcohol, would tend to coalesce on top of the oil. An equilibrium point would be reached before the alcohol was completely removed from the water of course but because the water temperature is close to the boiling point of the alcohol it should tend to move through the oil toward the cooler side. This did not appear to happen at 60 degrees overnight. Perhaps the oil barrier was too thick I thought so I will try again with less. Joe Logan vilas wrote: Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol to evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the water below the castor. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Tom. Castor oil idea is a bum. I pour 100 ml of castor oil ln flask containing 500ml of fermented broth with about 7.5% ethanol. stirred it good and left it over night. I did not see any volume increase in castor oil. I made more test and find out, negligible amount of ethanol was dissolve in castor oil. i miix 99% pure ethanol with castor oil, which mix very well. i think, bond between water and ethanol in aquviose condition is much stronger. Castor oil also killed all yeast too. I am working on other idea for destilling ethanol with less energy. If it work i will let you know later. Navnit From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:14:19 -0500 Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Joe, There doesn't seem to be any majik bullet for this. The rate of diffusion is related to the kintetic energy (or vapor pressure?) of the ethanol, its concentration, and the surface area it is diffusing through. I wonder if the problem extracting ethanol from wine is that it only represents 12 - 13% by volume. as concentration of ethanol drops/water rises that azeotropic deal becomes more of a factor. It may be necessary to first distill the alcohol . 50%, 60%, 80% ?? Then dry it with the castor oil screen. If so, the picture that is starting to develop is not a pretty one: A. Fermentation . distill ferment . castor oil screen allows recovery of some anhydrous ethanol. At some point ethanol conc. drops screening is no longer feasible. B. Return exhausted ethanol/water mix to the still along with next ferment. Thanks for the time and effort you are putting in. I think that ultimately, the successful production of energy on a small-scale, and hence local level . intergrated with sustainable farming, will include ethanol production. Now go have a drink. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Navnit, Thanks for the info. I am working on other idea for destilling ethanol with less energy. If it work i will let you know Please do. Best of luck, Tom - Original Message - From: NV Dhana [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Tom. Castor oil idea is a bum. I pour 100 ml of castor oil ln flask containing 500ml of fermented broth with about 7.5% ethanol. stirred it good and left it over night. I did not see any volume increase in castor oil. I made more test and find out, negligible amount of ethanol was dissolve in castor oil. i miix 99% pure ethanol with castor oil, which mix very well. i think, bond between water and ethanol in aquviose condition is much stronger. Castor oil also killed all yeast too. I am working on other idea for destilling ethanol with less energy. If it work i will let you know later. Navnit From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:14:19 -0500 Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hey Tom; I was thinking along the same lines but then there's this: Castor oil has a density of about 0.96 at room temp. According to the specific gravity tests I did with methanol ( ethanol is close in density) even 90% pure methanol with water still only has a density of 0.82 at 23 deg. C. For this idea to work the alcohol water mix must be heavier than the castor oil. I'll do as you suggest and see what can be done. Seives is still looking simpler at this point tho. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, There doesn't seem to be any majik bullet for this. The rate of diffusion is related to the kintetic energy (or vapor pressure?) of the ethanol, its concentration, and the surface area it is diffusing through. I wonder if the problem extracting ethanol from wine is that it only represents 12 - 13% by volume. as concentration of ethanol drops/water rises that azeotropic deal becomes more of a factor. It may be necessary to first distill the alcohol . 50%, 60%, 80% ?? Then dry it with the castor oil screen. If so, the picture that is starting to develop is not a pretty one: A. Fermentation . distill ferment . castor oil screen allows recovery of some anhydrous ethanol. At some point ethanol conc. drops screening is no longer feasible. B. Return exhausted ethanol/water mix to the still along with next ferment. Thanks for the time and effort you are putting in. I think that ultimately, the successful production of energy on a small-scale, and hence local level . intergrated with sustainable farming, will include ethanol production. Now go have a drink. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2006 9:23 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
its all about the surface area. i assume the flask you were using had an opening of between three and five cm? try using a wide shallow pan or a big bowl. and the oil layer doesnt have to be super thick, maybe 5mm. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Logan vilas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol to evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the water below the castor. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
you have to find the flash point for the ethanol quantity. i also believe that high percentages of ethanol are more agreeable. this would be a refining step in a larger process, not a means of distilling. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) its all about the surface area. i assume the flask you were using had an opening of between three and five cm? try using a wide shallow pan or a big bowl. and the oil layer doesnt have to be super thick, maybe 5mm. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Logan vilas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol to evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the water below the castor. Logan Vilas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went to bed and left the hot plate on overnight..well in the morning..I crept downstairsfull of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning and..there was this collosal.huge...disappointment. There was nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. So I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here today and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse control for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot plate then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the weekend if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot of time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet either Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Joe, What's the word? I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now . on the edge of my seat, waiting a shivers for the results of the castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding up but my heart is starting to cramp up. Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in it means Sorry, I don't want to talk about it. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hello Ken, Appreciate your input. (Just a quick summary in case anyone else is listening.) While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off premises. It seems that BD would not render the spirits unfit for beverage use, so the question remains: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? (I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that methanol is the denaturant in denatured ethanol available in hardware stores.) Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? A list of the approved denaturants from the section, Authorized Materials, . for making ethanol unfit for beverage use from the (US) Code of Federal Regulations.) Sec. 19.1005 Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153.(c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent, (v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or,(viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later by freezing the bio. (If you would want to??) From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500 Hello Ken, Appreciate your input. (Just a quick summary in case anyone else is listening.) While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off premises. It seems that BD would not render the spirits unfit for beverage use, so the question remains: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? (I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that methanol is the denaturant in denatured ethanol available in hardware stores.) Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? A list of the approved denaturants from the section, Authorized Materials, . for making ethanol unfit for beverage use from the (US) Code of Federal Regulations.) Sec. 19.1005 Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153. (c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or, (viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Go gettem Joe! we all wait a shivers for your results! From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:09:05 -0500 Hi Tom; Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a on the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out. Tirah Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Jim, I could live with 2% kerosene in the ethanol. Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later by freezing the bio. (If you would want to??) From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500 Hello Ken, Appreciate your input. (Just a quick summary in case anyone else is listening.) While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off premises. It seems that BD would not render the spirits unfit for beverage use, so the question remains: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? (I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that methanol is the denaturant in denatured ethanol available in hardware stores.) Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? A list of the approved denaturants from the section, Authorized Materials, . for making ethanol unfit for beverage use from the (US) Code of Federal Regulations.) Sec. 19.1005 Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153. (c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or, (viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Just don't use off road ( red) #1 or #2. less than 1% will result in a dark pink color for the entire batch. If #2 ULSD were used, you would gain a few btu's. - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPSmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later by freezing the bio. (If you would want to??) From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500 Hello Ken, Appreciate your input. (Just a quick summary in case anyone else is listening.) While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off premises. It seems that BD would not render the spirits unfit for beverage use, so the question remains: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? (I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that methanol is the denaturant in denatured ethanol available in hardware stores.) Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? A list of the approved denaturants from the section, Authorized Materials, . for making ethanol unfit for beverage use from the (US) Code of Federal Regulations.) Sec. 19.1005 Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153. (c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or, (viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
On Nov 27, 2006, at 5:16 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters? Yes. I've used standard paint store denatured ethanol (hardware stores rarely have anhydrous) with methanol and methyl isobutyl ketone as denaturants with no problems. As you say, the methanol just helps out the reaction, and the MIBK is at such low levels as to not interfere. Be aware that the ethanol in such mixtures was probly produced from petroleum. Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of making ethyl esters? (c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of-- (i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline That one is my personal favorite -- few denaturants are acceptable at only 2%. Gasoline is so nasty flavor-wise that it can be used at that concentration. In addition, most ethanol denatured that way happens to be produced from corn (not great, I know) rather than from ethylene, so you're more sure of carbon-neutrality. -K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink a 2% solution? It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to be concerned about a little biodiesel in there? I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Z If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - *From:* JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Foul tasting eh. In my opinion, beer is foul tasting and thus would be a suitable denaturant but I suspect the regulatory bodies wouldn't agree with me. On 11/26/06, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? There are several levels of denaturing -- fully denatured needs to be foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-) Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
you cannot repeat CAN NOT let the mash boil when using a castor screen, it will allow watery droplets of stock to the top and contaminate the batch. and i think (need to test) if you let the mix settle long enough, the oil will settle through the alcohol and force the water to the bottom - i think. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kellymailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous. Best to you don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all wrong. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Streetmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Tom: I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem. I'm sure however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help you out. Doug -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Well Tom; Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess. I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. soon Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
The Aussies no doubt! J;) Doug Turner wrote: Tom: I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem. I'm sure however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help you out. Doug -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of *Thomas Kelly *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Subject:* [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search
Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
Doug I like that help a mate out mentality. Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Turner To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Tom: I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem. I'm sure however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help you out. Doug -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe, I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg . problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. How do we heat the trap? I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects some have stalled due to loss of interest I've got to rally. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Ditto Maybe this little methanol price crisis will serve as a wake-up call ... Good to hear from you Hope you're on the mend Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol Hi Tom; I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the meth;) Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol production. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. -Kurt Thomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
